So, exactly who makes the ATT?

[JiFaire]

I figure if you try hard enough, you can make darn-near anything blow up. Get any turbo over 100K and inject a little steam and it'll dump when the pressure surge hits.

 

[Turbine Doc]

while we're on the topic of made in china i thought i might post this video. take from it what you will....

I'm with you 4320, foreign made requires careful scrutiny.

I don't know for sure but also quite possible Holset has stuff "outsourced" somewhere their manufacturing processes possibly China or India. I work for GE we do it, a LOT, nature of the beast these days, 1st stuff from outsourced locations we got in the mid 90s was pure junk much rework or scrap, especially on the military programs I was on where they were very hesitant to accept.

Ramped up quality control and education at mfg site and receipt inspections became mandatory, one thing we learned with the 1st jet turbines built in India for India's navy was understanding of tolerances, or lack thereof, for example if print says +/- x thou " is okay you can have every piece be "okay" the same amount, we still strive for 0 and only allow for a bit of out of spec for the build, but if all are at upper or lower spec limit the rotors when stacked will shake on test stand to upper limit on 1st builders test.

Once they understood why we had limits, and field and shop limits could not be interchanged they started building turbines that passed the 1st run. It's about culture change, while many of us in N America grew up with wrenches in our hand, or had a machinist mentor teach us the right way to build things, or show us tricks passed down generation to generation, not the case overseas.

Remember Japan, Korea, Mexico, Taiwan, and a host of other trading partners "outsourced" part suppliers were purveyors of of junk but are now desired some even being touted as standard of excellence, which at one time you could not give their stuff away.

When I went down this path to R&D the concept for/with Slim I was very up front with him if it was junk I wanted no part in it, started with the Mitsubishi, and then with the ATT, mine is going into it's 3rd year, I've lost track of the miles but over 25K on it.

It's cast was superior IMO to the Mitsubishi, the ATT is not a copy as you can see in the pictures of the original thread, maybe iron is less expensive in China and castings can be made thicker ???

As for the turbo itself Slim disassembles each one and inspects and dimension checks them, last fall when I visited him at his house he had a pallet of new arrivals in the inspection process, I doubt Holset does that with every turbo, I know GE and many high end mfrs, don't do that, they sample a batch lot and hope the sample is a true representation of the assembly batch.

Why have I said as much as I have on the issue, partly because I have a lot of time/passion part of me in this little project, those that have known me over the years know my #1 goal has been seeking that which is best IMO for the 6.5 community at large.

Nothing says my opinion is the only one out there worth listening to, multiple ways to come with a solution, but temper my opinion with the fact I have been a seeker of 6.5 knowledge since my 1st one bought in 2000, many miles since then, most of what is on my truck has been installed 3+ years minimum 10K miles so if it was gonna fail it probably would have failed by now.

At home waiting for time to be installed, is a China Block, with China heads, a Scat crank (possibly also Chinese or other outsource location), Brazilian Mahle pistons, who knows where the gaskets came from in the Felpro & Vicrtor Rentz kits, cam, bearings, rings , injectors (all outsourced "US or high end mfr branded") balanced & blueprinted engine waiting to go in. Who is to say what content is and is not in a product.

I used to to fight the made in USA only brand alas that genie long since out the bottle.

So to the OP original question who makes it, well cast, assembled, balanced in China to Slims specs QA'd & inspected in USA shipped from USA to you, does that make it any more Chinese, than a pump in a GM box that GM outsourced to China, the turbo is all ATT and not being priced, marketed, or badged as a knockoff /counterfeit Mitsubishi.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I've said it before but I think it bears repeating. Most of the junk imports we get are becuase of greedy suppliers looking for bottom dollar pricing so they can pocket more money. You don't see prices coming down when they start to outsource. Goes to show what kind of supplier Slim is.

 

[buddy]

Does the ATT come spec'd with some turbine RPM rating. Larger turbos spin a bit slower and we dont use it to its fullest capaility. We in the 60,000rpm area when boosting it hard? The larger turbine with higher efficiency and slower RPM is probably a lot more reliable even if the GM8 was designed with more safety in mind.

 

[SmithvilleD]

The major turbo companies all do test to fail on a large enough # of samples to generate statistically reliable data showing under what conditions (primarily rpm, pressure ratio across the comp wheel, & temps) the comp wheels begin to fail at.

Then OEM design criteria select a turbo for a given application that keeps it within its safe rpm/temp/pressure ratio capabilities. This isn't said to comment on the ATT good or bad. There are enough of them out there successfully running to feel confident they're up to the job. I know of a China made Garrett knock-off that's run over 75K miles w/ no troubles at all. And it cost $200 shipped to the West coast. Whether we like it or not, they're quite capable of building quality turbo's.

Test to fail done right requires sacrificing a statistically significant # of turbo's run to failure conditions, so it's an expensive process.

So often times us experimenters need to make due with measures like an external wastegate w/ more than adequate bypass capacity trying to ensure venturing into uncharted territory w/ a new combination doesn't overspeed & frag a comp wheel. Also a good idea to have an IC or even a simple sturdy screen/strainer to catch any frag. Nothing's certain to catch everything, but these things do occasionally happen when pushing beyond old limits.

Talk to drag race guys that were among the early adopters going turbo w/ their domestic V8 gassers & many have comp failure stories. A little nitrous & associated extra fuel can be an effective way to spool a big turbo earlier. Overdo it & it's an effective way to overspeed & frag a comp wheel.

 

[Big T]

Remember Japan, Korea, Mexico, Taiwan, and a host of other trading partners "outsourced" part suppliers were purveyors of of junk but are now desired some even being touted as standard of excellence, which at one time you could not give their stuff away.

X2

It's only a matter of time before the cost structures in those other countries gravitate to the same living standard level in the U.S. Already you're seeing large scale labor strikes in China over compensation. I believe China is on a far more compressed curve on this front than what transpired in the U.S. or even Japan.

There's just one thing I have trouble accepting: with 1.2 billion Chinese, it's tough to accept that their rubber is better.

 

[Detroit Dan]

speaking of China http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Companies-brace-for-end-of-apf-2437567795.html?x=0

 

[Big T]

speaking of China http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Companies-brace-for-end-of-apf-2437567795.html?x=0

Guess this confirms that my MBA in Finance & Economics was worthwhile and that I do no something afterall. Just don't tell anyone my dirty secret that I wrench on diesels in my off-time.

 

[GM Guy]

Thank you Turbine Doc for posting that large post. very informative, answered many ATT questions.

Just to confirm, the ATT is very loosely based on a Mitsubitsi, but is in no way connected to mitsubitsi? the reason I ask is that I have this mental block on putting Mitsubitsi parts on a GM truck, now if it cast for Slim Shady, then I have no issues putting this China turbo on, especially after you said how they are inspected.

 

[Turbine Doc]

100% correct GMG ATT is a custom build per Slim's specs, look at pics in replacement turbo thread and you can see the differences between the two; NOT a Mitsubishi part in it, yes he checks them all before going out the door,

out of curiosity why the hesitation to a Mitsubishi turbo on your GM?

Buddy good question but one I don't have an answer to, possibly Slim can answer, I thought about it early on, but forgot about it.

 

[Acesneights1]

As for all this China distractive talk, fact is that you can get some good stuff made in China, particularly with products low on the complexity curve. Turbos are definitely low on that curve. Perfect product to be made in China.

Not really Most stuff is crap. The difference with the ATT Dennis has them made to his spec and then personally assembles every kit so the owner/operator/dealer is personally inspecting the merchandise. That goes along way. However I do agree that chinese made stuff if uncheck is garbage. Stop by the RV section and see how good the Chinese made tires were on my camper. I'll never buy any tire made in china ever again. I don't trust China anything but I would absolustley trust Dennis for QC.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Test to fail done right requires sacrificing a statistically significant # of turbo's run to failure conditions, so it's an expensive process.

So often times us experimenters need to make due with measures like an external wastegate w/ more than adequate bypass capacity trying to ensure venturing into uncharted territory w/ a new combination doesn't overspeed & frag a comp wheel. Also a good idea to have an IC or even a simple sturdy screen/strainer to catch any frag. Nothing's certain to catch everything, but these things do occasionally happen when pushing beyond old limits.
.

All the same concerns I/we had and why it took so long to field the ATT in it's current form, both Slim & I ran about a year on ours with a IC, light & heavy loaded, and maybe 25K on mine before putting it on my burb that one is the prototype. It had 10k or so that Slim ran on it 1st, he sold me a "wore out one " nah it still pulls strong as ever, vehicle has been parked for about 8 mos. I'm in the middle of doing a body swap on it (Katrina damage) so I stopped racking up the miles on it.

The truck has maybe turbo # 19 or 20 on it from the 1st ATT production run, Slim would maybe know better which one it was in that run; that is not really relevant, that one is the high miler turbo 30K+ on it now ???, that has been all over the country, up mountains/down, hot/cold biweekly 500 mile each way commuter Sept 08 to March 2010. Has never been drag strip track run, has pulled some big weight, it has been to 100+ on a number of occasions

 

[Veg_Out]

New photography is being shot as we speak. The quality will blow your mind. The GM turbo looks like a toy compared.

 

[Detroit Dan]

The GM turbo looks like a toy compared.

that's because it IS a toy compared!

 

[Slim Shady]

Learning to deal with different cultures and how to ask in the right context so you get what you want is the key. You can get cheap or you can get what you want, what you want costs money, cheap does not.

You also need to develop a relationship with your supplier, open and honest. The Chines are very proud people much like we are. They get offended easily when things are accusatory, and we Americans come across as arrogant and brash to them (cultural differences). All things start out with a greeting that is formal and things stay that way until both parties become comfortable with each other.

I have inspected every turbo that has gone out, dis-assembled and looked at and measured everyone. It takes me about two hours to inspect assemble and detail every turbo that goes out. I do this to catch any irregularities that may arise from production.

I have had two housings that did not meet specs, contacted my person and we worked out the details, of min and max specs and what Spec I wanted. So far all have come back at spec since they found out I check every one of my turbos.

The engineer at the factory is good about asking what is wanted as far as performance and durability. What they consider expensive is not expensive as we view it. Anything is possible and I have been real satisfied with the quality of the product. They are built robust and the machine work is very good. I have had machinists here look at the work and they agree that the tolerances and repeatability of the production runs has been exceptional.

Understanding that we and they are pursuing the same things in life, family, secure lives and financial stability. I have had many discussions of such things and it is humbling to know the people all strive for the same things, the governments are a different story.

This endeavor was never about getting rich, it was about doing something that most of the people said wouldn't work.

Hopefully my next RD trial will be finished soon.

 

[GM Guy]

100% correct GMG ATT is a custom build per Slim's specs, look at pics in replacement turbo thread and you can see the differences between the two; NOT a Mitsubishi part in it, yes he checks them all before going out the door,

out of curiosity why the hesitation to a Mitsubishi turbo on your GM?

Buddy good question but one I don't have an answer to, possibly Slim can answer, I thought about it early on, but forgot about it.

the first thing i think of when i see or hear Mitsubishi is ricer cars, which i have an intense dislike for. ):h i know they make some decent diesel powered construction equipment, but it is just a mental block.

luckily you just confirmed the good news that it is not affiliated with mitsubishi, so if i can finace one someday, i will buy it with no bad thoughts! I know, a tad strange. :rolleyes5:

I might try talking my old man into one, mainly cause he thinks wastegates are unnecessary wastes in a turbo. but he is cheap, so there is a big hurdle to jump!

 

[GM Guy]

Slim Shady, since you have this good relationship set up, have you looked into producing heads as well? slim shady/Heath/ Turbine Doc designed direct injection heads anone?

It very re-assuring to hear what lengths you guys have gone to to ensure quality. dis-assembly of every one... now that is quality control!

also, one last question, I take it Slim Shady has walking j designs sell turbos, then he mails them out, or is a group mailed to walking j for their own stock?

 

[Detroit Dan]

Slim Shady, since you have this good relationship set up, have you looked into producing heads as well? slim shady/Heath/ Turbine Doc designed direct injection heads anone?

Oh yeah, baby, yeah! I want some bolt on fully assembled high performance DI heads! Now we're talkin'!

 

[buddy]

I would settle for a set of regular heads with adjustable roller rockers.

 

[GM Guy]

i would settle for affordable direct replacements! lol