jrsavoie
Recruit
Ya and I didn't make it out to blow snow yesterday so I am going out in a few minutes.
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new engine for the old girl
- Thread starter devildogadam
- Start date
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
Agree that the issues were resolved, however recall that it was an iterative process over at least two (that I am aware of) generations, so not all Optimizers are the same. IIRC, in addition to cooling, the oil ports were revised over time. Even this block is evidence of differences in the Optimizer series in that the Navistar logo is 90* to current production and the 'dots' are now lines. Naturally, I remain open to correction and it would help if there was more information available on the lifecycles of the Optimizer.
In any event, my vote remains to check this specific block for cracks given all the noted issues and knowing nothing of the history. Within the realm of possibilities, it could have taken abuse during one (or more) of the military engagements, or served as a target dummy, but we will never truly know.
So, given that it is an Optimizer and the possible life it may have lead, I do not agree that just 'cause it is an Optimizer it can take any and all abuse and keep on trucking
The dots still exist AFAIK, the only lined version you mention is on Ted's and we think that's not a real GEP. Never heard of any GEP having first year issues, they were fixed from day one of the retool.
Oil passages or cooling issues, didn't hear that one either, have to go digging,
Still, having a GM block vs a GEP block, I'd take a GEP block any day.
devildogadam
Active Member
These are all good points. And I do baby my truck paul, but sometimes I properly abuse it when there is a white truck trying to catch up to me.
My P400 has solid 506 lines for casting #s.
Someone in a different thread posted a pic of a 506 that had solid lines and at the time I said I had only seen 506 with the dot matrix look. I can't remember what thread that was, but now I need to correct it as the AMG/GEP 506 can have solid #s on the 506. If anyone remembers/finds the thread let me know.
Someone in a different thread posted a pic of a 506 that had solid lines and at the time I said I had only seen 506 with the dot matrix look. I can't remember what thread that was, but now I need to correct it as the AMG/GEP 506 can have solid #s on the 506. If anyone remembers/finds the thread let me know.
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
The P400 are solid, the Optimizer is supposed to be dotted. Ted's has a brand new Optimizer they say is legit but it has solid lines but no Navistar symbol. I emailed GEP to see what they have to say.
OH! OK new on me.
devildogadam
Active Member
OK as you see head studs are "on the motor"
But now I have some questions. The directions say torque the studs down to 90 ft.lbs. by way of 30-60-90. My question is, is that enough? Seems very low to me. I am using .010 thicker gaskets so should I adjust or the extra material. Please let me know what you have torqued your heads down to when using studs
But now I have some questions. The directions say torque the studs down to 90 ft.lbs. by way of 30-60-90. My question is, is that enough? Seems very low to me. I am using .010 thicker gaskets so should I adjust or the extra material. Please let me know what you have torqued your heads down to when using studs
Attachments
I did the 30-60-90 thing. My understanding is when you torque a bolt dry you have to use more force. With the studs and a nut on the end that is lubed up it takes less force to clamp the head.
devildogadam
Active Member
Seems logical. And you have had no problems thus far. So your saying that following directions is the right thing to do...
That's not what I tough my son when he got a giant Lego set.
That's not what I tough my son when he got a giant Lego set.
So far its good.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Ya, legos are cheaper when broken though.
A bolt must be installed by torqueing it into place by rotation, creating both twisting force and a vertical clamping force, which means it will stretch and twist. Two different forces simultaneously, its capacity to secure the head is slightly reduced, and requires more torque. A stud tightened into the block is stationary. A nut is torqued into place against the stud atop the head. The nut torque provides the clamping force, rather than the torque of the fastener itself, and the rotational force is avoided entirely. The stud is torqued from a relaxed state, the nut will make it stretch only along the vertical axis without a rotational load. A more evenly distributed and accurate torque load compared to a bolt and therefore requires less rotational torque on the nut.
When I custom made my 90* intake manifold studs, I used a tremendous amount less, iirc 60% less, and destroyed the first gasket set I used to determine the new torque required.
No added torque for thicker gasket.
A bolt must be installed by torqueing it into place by rotation, creating both twisting force and a vertical clamping force, which means it will stretch and twist. Two different forces simultaneously, its capacity to secure the head is slightly reduced, and requires more torque. A stud tightened into the block is stationary. A nut is torqued into place against the stud atop the head. The nut torque provides the clamping force, rather than the torque of the fastener itself, and the rotational force is avoided entirely. The stud is torqued from a relaxed state, the nut will make it stretch only along the vertical axis without a rotational load. A more evenly distributed and accurate torque load compared to a bolt and therefore requires less rotational torque on the nut.
When I custom made my 90* intake manifold studs, I used a tremendous amount less, iirc 60% less, and destroyed the first gasket set I used to determine the new torque required.
No added torque for thicker gasket.
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
I went 125 ft/lbs based on another members recomondation, I too thought 90 seemed way too low.
It's 100 ft lbs with ARP molly assembly lube or 130 ft lbs with 30-wt motor oil.
If you didn't seal the threads of the studs in the block START OVER!!!
The threads will leak coolant if they are not sealed to the block. Blue locktight works. I then tighten the studs into the block. At least use something to seal the threads on the block side. It sucks to deal with coolant in the oil from this and it's easier to "fix" with the engine out.
Install instructions here.
Getting crazy with orings
Poll on leaks
If you didn't seal the threads of the studs in the block START OVER!!!
The threads will leak coolant if they are not sealed to the block. Blue locktight works. I then tighten the studs into the block. At least use something to seal the threads on the block side. It sucks to deal with coolant in the oil from this and it's easier to "fix" with the engine out.
Install instructions here.
Getting crazy with orings
Poll on leaks
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turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
I used Permatex thread sealant and my last oil analysis said I had coolant in the oil? I just checked the bearings, mains were good, rods weren't that bad considering they weren't that bad when I put the turbo on almost 2 years ago. They had lost their crush so I replaced them anyhow.
When I change the short block, going to use o-rings.
When I change the short block, going to use o-rings.
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
This is the lowdown on the GEP, its no longer cast by Navistar. I am waiting to hear back to see if there are other markings to make sure its a GEP over a chinese casting.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Excellent information!
Am now curious as to the differences in a P-400 and the 'full P-400' . . .
Wish that vendors post this type of detail either in a wiki or on their own site rather than have magazine reporters try to tease it out of supposed 'vendor technicians' and only end up reporting inaccurate information.
Am now curious as to the differences in a P-400 and the 'full P-400' . . .
Wish that vendors post this type of detail either in a wiki or on their own site rather than have magazine reporters try to tease it out of supposed 'vendor technicians' and only end up reporting inaccurate information.
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
There is only one version of the P400, then you have the Optimizer which isn't even close to a P400.
devildogadam
Active Member
Navistar short block and 599 heads are up for sale if anyone wants them. Other wise they will head back to the bone yard in about a week. Also have a good 4l80e with a minor flex plate issue. If anyone is interested just shoot me an offer via "conversation " pm
turbovanman
I has boost, :O)
Where are they for sale?
devildogadam
Active Member
Twentynine palms, California