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Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

n8in8or said:
True, but it cools the charge post-turbo so it makes the air that's already in there more dense which crams more oxygen into the engine per intake valve opening. I feel like moisture pre-turbo wouldn't have the same effect. I could see it keeping temps down some due to the moisture being in the charge, but I don't feel like it would make the charge denser. It makes sense in my mind, I just can't explain it well (I'm sure it has nothing to do with the 3 hours of sleep I got last night....).
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Pre turbo works fine however the compressor blades will eventually wear from the water and a CAC/IC will more likely separate the water from the air-charge this is why water injection is run post CAC/IC and is also where the fogger nozzles shine performance wise "this higher the initial pressure the better like as in 1k psi minus actual boost, volume of water and number of nozzles.

"The more dense the air-charge is the greater the TQ & HP output." Any of you every work on high boost gasser's found that up top the timing needs to be pulled or you'll loose the motor however w/high pressure water injection you can actually increase the timing up top for incredible gains in TQ & HP.

Not long ago some tinkered with blowing the air-charge through an elongated ac evaporator of course driven by the ac compressor the gains were well beyond expected FORD patented the idea and shelved it......
 
Humid days don't lessen the percent of Oxygen in the air, it just means that there's more water vapor suspended in the atmosphere.
 
I found a link that helps to answer part of this.

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/gases/faq/wet-air-dry-air-density.shtml

It states simply that at the same temperature and pressure, air that is more humid is less oxygen-dense than air that is less humid.

The underlined point is important as that is where I'm unsure of the answer. So it's safe to say that on a day that is more humid the air going into the turbo is less dense than the air that goes into the turbo on a day that is less humid. That makes sense. We all know engines make more power on cool, dry days (what they always hope for in a race so we can see higher speeds). That would be due to the density of the air that the engine is ingesting on that day, and if the amount of fuel is increased proportionately so the air/fuel ratio stays the same, then you're making more power (generally speaking). That would be true for forced induction or naturally aspirated, diesel or gasoline.

Now I'm thinking of the space between the turbocharger and the intake valve as being a container of a specific volume - especially if a single cylinder engine is used for the example for simplicity's sake. Now if you compress air that has a known temperature and humidity with a turbocharger you have air with the same density ratio in that space, just more of it. Unfortunately heat was also added to the mix due to the nature of compressing a gas. That would increase the pressure of the air because the air is expanding due to the addition of heat. That could make it harder for the turbo to compress the air because the air inside is pushing back more due to the heat. This in my mind is where the water injection has its benefit - by injecting the water in the space between the turbo and intake valve, it cools the air back down. This cooling makes the air contract, which on its own makes the air more dense, but then it gives more space for the turbo to push more air into the space, which also increases density. So now there is more oxygen in the same space that you had before and next time the intake valve opens to allow air in it there would be more oxygen entering the combustion chamber. However, if you're forcing water vapor into this same pressurized space, I think it could also add a push that could prevent the turbocharger from forcing air in like it wants because you're trying to add more "stuff" into this same finite space that is trying to stay at the same pressure. But, I think it's safe to say that the cooling benefits of adding the water outweigh the negatives of forcing more stuff in the space.

A second thing that water injection can do is deter detonation. Humid air would have that same affect on a gasoline engine, naturally aspirated or forced induction. It would cool the combustion event, which would stave off preignition which would increase power. It could even allow more ignition advance which could add more power. As I understand it, water injection will have some of the same effects on our forced induction diesel engines because cooling the combustion will make our EGTs stay lower so we can keep our foot in the throttle longer and keep making a higher level of power longer. Humid air would do the same thing, yes, but at the expense of oxygen, so is that a good trade-off? That's what I don't know. My gut feel is that it isn't a fair trade, but I don't know that for sure.

Simplified:
1) humid air at the same temperature has less oxygen per volume than air that is less humid
2) does the vapor in the air overcome the lesser oxygen by cooling the charge enough for it to be benefit? I don't know the answer to that, but my gut feel is that it doesn't.
 
If higher ambient air temperature with high humidity means less Oxygen in the atmosphere, and the atmosphere is 22% Oxygen, then where does the Oxygen go to? Why wouldn't people get light-headed or pass out from lack of Oxygen when it's humid out? On the other hand, it would explain several things, like hot, humid Southern summers leads to less Oxygen in the air, which means less Oxygen in every breath going to the brain, which explains why there are so many videos on YouTube of Southern Rednecks doing really stupid things!
 
Hmm, I would say that the 22% oxygen figure that you reference would be a global average and localized amounts vary due to conditions such as temperature, humidity, pressure and altitude. A fine example would be Denver, Colorado where it's well established that the oxygen level is lower, and that is due to the altitude. But you bring up an even more important question: why don't we then see YouTube videos from people in Colorado doing really stupid things!?
 
Y'all , and yes I did say Y'all, might be over thinking this part a wee bit for us rednecks to understand ....

Just place a nozzle in the intake and inject O2 then ya can have all the oxygen you need maybe... that & water ya should be set..
 
sctrailrider said:
Y'all , and yes I did say Y'all, might be over thinking this part a wee bit for us rednecks to understand ....

Just place a nozzle in the intake and inject O2 then ya can have all the oxygen you need maybe... that & water ya should be set..
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That's not a terrible idea....in fact there's a company working on that very thing. Though they're using the air as a supercharger which means the intake tract has to be sealed to prevent backflow and then of course that goes through a ton of oxygen.

http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/1410-compressed-air-supercharging/

I'm not sure how a system that just sprays oxygen in the tract would work, but it surely couldn't hurt. Though I suppose O2 is probably not very stable (Apollo 1 fire) and that's why N2O is used instead...
 
That article is a bit misleading. Notice they compare the 8lb boosted numbers to the n/a numbers and attribute it all to the cold air. While a supercharger or turbo at 8lbs won't yield as high of results they get it there most of the way.

And you hit Something also. They are filling up from a scuba compressor. I have done some extensive testing running pure oxygen. I've blown up half a ton of small engines like Honda and Briggs and Stratton when I started playing with it.

Oil in the engine becomes a problem. Shooting pure oxygen into a warm intake manifold and it is igniting in a fairly oil rich environment with oil coming passed the rings creates issues. BIG ISSUES. Before someone asks, because it's talked about here a lot - yes gapless rings help, but don't fix it- trust me and the remnants of a couple 4 cylinders.

I wish I had the facilities to continue testing it, but it's been on the back burner a long time now. I started playing with pure oxygen ran engines in the early 80s. Haven't done much in the last 10 years.

Apollo 1 is exactly what had me thinking it btw.

After testing Ive done, I envision a completely redesigned engine for it. You can not have oil on the rings. Ceramic/ Teflon gapless is my best guess so far. Wick fed, dry sump oil systems. Oil vapors are not acceptable. No more cam drivin intake valves. I know solenoid valves are still too limited for high rpm, but the power to fuel ratio is so high you don't need the high rpm of modern engines. 2,000 is more than enough.

Inconel mesh fiber in the open combustion area multiplies the effect of the oxygen rich environment. See the myth busters exploding sewer episode to get a concept.

If anyone has some bullet proof shielding, an old gocart engine, and grandmas old oxygen concentrator lying around, be a lot more careful than you think you need to. Someone's kid might get ideas.
 
Will L. said:
That article is a bit misleading. Notice they compare the 8lb boosted numbers to the n/a numbers and attribute it all to the cold air. While a supercharger or turbo at 8lbs won't yield as high of results they get it there most of the way.

And you hit Something also. They are filling up from a scuba compressor. I have done some extensive testing running pure oxygen. I've blown up half a ton of small engines like Honda and Briggs and Stratton when I started playing with it.

Oil in the engine becomes a problem. Shooting pure oxygen into a warm intake manifold and it is igniting in a fairly oil rich environment with oil coming passed the rings creates issues. BIG ISSUES. Before someone asks, because it's talked about here a lot - yes gapless rings help, but don't fix it- trust me and the remnants of a couple 4 cylinders.

I wish I had the facilities to continue testing it, but it's been on the back burner a long time now. I started playing with pure oxygen ran engines in the early 80s. Haven't done much in the last 10 years.

Apollo 1 is exactly what had me thinking it btw.

After testing Ive done, I envision a completely redesigned engine for it. You can not have oil on the rings. Ceramic/ Teflon gapless is my best guess so far. Wick fed, dry sump oil systems. Oil vapors are not acceptable. No more cam drivin intake valves. I know solenoid valves are still too limited for high rpm, but the power to fuel ratio is so high you don't need the high rpm of modern engines. 2,000 is more than enough.

Inconel mesh fiber in the open combustion area multiplies the effect of the oxygen rich environment. See the myth busters exploding sewer episode to get a concept.

If anyone has some bullet proof shielding, an old gocart engine, and grandmas old oxygen concentrator lying around, be a lot more careful than you think you need to. Someone's kid might get ideas.
Click to expand...
You always ruin all our fun, dad. :(;)
 
Will L. said:
That article is a bit misleading. Notice they compare the 8lb boosted numbers to the n/a numbers and attribute it all to the cold air. While a supercharger or turbo at 8lbs won't yield as high of results they get it there most of the way.

And you hit Something also. They are filling up from a scuba compressor. I have done some extensive testing running pure oxygen. I've blown up half a ton of small engines like Honda and Briggs and Stratton when I started playing with it.

Oil in the engine becomes a problem. Shooting pure oxygen into a warm intake manifold and it is igniting in a fairly oil rich environment with oil coming passed the rings creates issues. BIG ISSUES. Before someone asks, because it's talked about here a lot - yes gapless rings help, but don't fix it- trust me and the remnants of a couple 4 cylinders.

I wish I had the facilities to continue testing it, but it's been on the back burner a long time now. I started playing with pure oxygen ran engines in the early 80s. Haven't done much in the last 10 years.

Apollo 1 is exactly what had me thinking it btw.

After testing Ive done, I envision a completely redesigned engine for it. You can not have oil on the rings. Ceramic/ Teflon gapless is my best guess so far. Wick fed, dry sump oil systems. Oil vapors are not acceptable. No more cam drivin intake valves. I know solenoid valves are still too limited for high rpm, but the power to fuel ratio is so high you don't need the high rpm of modern engines. 2,000 is more than enough.

Inconel mesh fiber in the open combustion area multiplies the effect of the oxygen rich environment. See the myth busters exploding sewer episode to get a concept.

If anyone has some bullet proof shielding, an old gocart engine, and grandmas old oxygen concentrator lying around, be a lot more careful than you think you need to. Someone's kid might get ideas.
Click to expand...
If they are filling from just a regular scuba compressor, then its not oxygen enriched, only scrubbed to filter the carbon and any mousture from the air. For regular scuba, you're still breathing regular atmospheric air, it's just filtered and devoid of any moisture so as to not damage the regulators.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
If they are filling from just a regular scuba compressor, then its not oxygen enriched, only scrubbed to filter the carbon and any mousture from the air. For regular scuba, you're still breathing regular atmospheric air, it's just filtered and devoid of any moisture so as to not damage the regulators.
Click to expand...

Exactly- but in the article they make it sound like it's only O2 that they are using. When this came out, I chased it down and contacted them to find out if they were running pure O2. They are not. All they ran was a scuba compressor- which is mentioned but not clearly described.

When Nate mentioned the oxygen enriched environment of the Apollo1, I wanted to show the difference in the two, especially since that was my inspiration.

In scuba I know the compressor has to be an oil-less compressor because the smallest amount of oil can contaminate the tank and is no bueno for the diver.

Somewhere stored away I have a scuba tank compressor from some of the old experiments I did.
Compressed air is the same as chilled boosted air without the variable load of a turbo or supercharger.

An oxygen rich environment is a different scenario. Many engineers have attempted pure oxygen, and enriched oxygen engines. A couple have done ok. My micro engines I built are promising- but won't really know until I can scale it up. Then we'll see some things go boom!! Hopefully 1 of them will be a controllable boom.
 
I finally tried something new tonight. I've been wanting to put a manual boost controller in the line to the Puff Limiter for a while now because I wanted to see if I could reduce belching huge clouds of black smoke before the turbo spools without sacrificing top end fueling. I did some searching for mechanical manual boost controllers and found some name brand ones and some knock-offs. I didn't want to spend too much, but I also wanted a reliable unit so I could have an experiment I was confident in. I ended up going with a Hallman Pro Rx. I spent more than I wanted to ($94), but it's reviewed very well and it was gunmetal in color, which I HAD to get since it matched the engine!!:shame: Here's their website:
http://www.hallmanboostcontroller.com/

I hooked it up tonight and did some test drives. The literature said the factory-supplied spring was good to raise the boost on a wastegate by 5psi. 5psi is about where I wanted the Puff Limiter to release so I turned it to the highest boost position. Well that wasn't good....I could only hit 15psi and it was pretty slow. However there wasn't any smoke so it was working, just way too much. So I started adjusting it 1 turn at a time. After 3 turns I wasn't noticing much of a difference so I decided I should go to the lowest boost position just to make sure something wasn't wrong. Yup, at the lowest boost setting it ran and smoked like normal which was great, somewhere in the middle was what I was looking for! I started raising the boost 1 turn at a time and finally around 3 turns I started seeing a change. I landed at 4.5 and I have a fair balance between smoke and performance.

It's pretty interesting right now, my smoke is definitely less, but I've lost a bit of the punch it has at tip-in. Then the pump kicks in at about the same time the turbo spools which feels a bit like an old 2-stroke dirt bike: kind of an on-off situation. Once it's kicked in I seem to have all fuel as before so that's good, but I think overall it's just a bit slower when it's initially kicked. I'm going to drive it a bit more, but I think I have a plan going forward: I have had the electronic boost controller set wide open for weeks now which means all it's doing is blocking the line to the wastegate on the turbo giving me max boost...I think I would be very happy using this to control the Puff Limiter instead. What I could do then is have multiple settings to control it. I could have a setting that is conservative down low which will be civilized and limit the smoke but once spooled have all the fuel I need. I could have one even more conservative in case someone drives the truck that isn't one with driving by rear view mirror. I could have a setting that is just like not having it there at all which would be smokey and give me all the punch down low I have had all along. And then I could even have a setting that doesn't release the Puff Limiter at all which could be like a valet setting! I'm pretty excited about the adjustability I'll have!! I think I'll also play with the initial setting of the Puff Limiter as well so I can fine tune how much fuel I'm getting before the Puff Limiter is released. I think I'll be due for a trip to the dyno soon so I can see what different Puff Limiter and boost controller settings do to the power output.

So now I have this cool mechanical boost controller that I won't be using for how I intended. I think I'll plumb it into the wastegate so if I want to limit my boost I can and it will be very reliable doing so. I don't anticipate wanting to vary that as much as I initially thought now that I've driven it a bit so I think that will work just fine for me.

Once I get the electronic boost controller plumbed to the Puff Limiter I'll do some videos to show the effect of different settings both on performance and smoke.
image.jpeg image.jpeg
 
Will L. said:
Glad your getting control you want. Dont most people mount that in cab and run lines to engine? Of course then the dash starts turning into a 747 cockpit.
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Yeah I think so, but I don't think it would do me much good with this manual controller. It's about 13 turns from fully open to closed so it would take me a while to turn the knob and get the amount of adjustability I would like. If someone pulls up to me at a light and I want all the fuel I can get I'll be spinning that knob like a gerbil on an exercise wheel to get it adjusted out! They do make a remote adjustment kit for this controller that is a cable mounted knob which is cool. They recommend keeping the hose as short as possible which I'm guessing is because a shorter column of air will give the boost controller greater/more accurate control. If I got one with an indexed lever like a brake proportioning valve that could work, but it still wouldn't be as adjustable as what I can do with the electronic one. And yeah 747 dash is quickly happening. I still need to find a home for the trans controller and I still have to do a water injection controller, a mechanical water temp gauge, maybe an IAT gauge or 2, maybe a drive pressure gauge and of course the monitor for my kineuter valve....:smuggrin:
 
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