Banks sidewinder exhaust manifold group buy.

[Will L.]

I keep thinking about the oring, and only thing that bugs me is if someone were to grab just any oring.
Only Teflon Orings or perfluoroelastomer oring is what should be used imo. Even at that the perfuorelastomer is only good to -10* so way cold weather is out.
Buna,Neoprene, EDPM is only good to 250*; Urethane is only good to 200*; Viton is no good for hot water or steam; Fluorosilicone allows permiation (leaking of liquid product) and; Silicone wear is poor under compaction and cant handle keytones (acetone,propane,etc).

Sparkplugs, glowplugs, injectors, etc. all use metal sealing washers when needed. I don't want to sound negative nelly here, but that is kinda where I make big differences at work is catching the long term failure issues usually before the testing is even started.

Please guys, double check what kind of oring material you used, and remember the heat applied to it there. If your oring breaks down due to the heat,steam,or chemicals in the oil detergents that .020 of oring taking up the gap under the nut will allow for some play. Think about oring failure you've seen in the past- what did they look like...

 

[turbovanman]

I keep thinking about the oring, and only thing that bugs me is if someone were to grab just any oring.
Only Teflon Orings or perfluoroelastomer oring is what should be used imo. Even at that the perfuorelastomer is only good to -10* so way cold weather is out.
Buna,Neoprene, EDPM is only good to 250*; Urethane is only good to 200*; Viton is no good for hot water or steam; Fluorosilicone allows permiation (leaking of liquid product) and; Silicone wear is poor under compaction and cant handle keytones (acetone,propane,etc).

Sparkplugs, glowplugs, injectors, etc. all use metal sealing washers when needed. I don't want to sound negative nelly here, but that is kinda where I make big differences at work is catching the long term failure issues usually before the testing is even started.

Please guys, double check what kind of oring material you used, and remember the heat applied to it there. If your oring breaks down due to the heat,steam,or chemicals in the oil detergents that .020 of oring taking up the gap under the nut will allow for some play. Think about oring failure you've seen in the past- what did they look like...

The heat will be cylinder head temp, unless you over heat it. Valve stem seals are made of viton.

If the o-ring comes apart, nothing will come loose, the o-ring has zero effect on head bolt torque and will simply just sit there, it has no where to go. The turbo boys have proved it, they work well and it was their idea.

 

[Will L.]

Ok, I just never noticed anyone identifying which type of oring. And yes viton is great for the valve seal, the added hydrocarbons in the oil help them at temps above 250, but the addition of water at 180 will cause them to break down and if in the cooling jacket and the thread locker was not applied.

I just don't want to see someone not understanding a failure after 2-3 years of use honking the headgasket failed when it could be just $5 more for a different type of oring. And all respect to those forging the way with these issues way ahead of me. I love the oring idea. If I should find my way back into my optimizer...

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

If ya think about it, the fluid is leaking past the thread portion of the stud at the top... a o-ring might help some but it won't completely seal against the threads thus the leaking with any psi in the cooling system pushing fluid past the threads...

A zero psi cooling system will prevent this completely by not pushing fluid out.... well it did for me anyway...

 

[Burning oil]

At worst case they don't help, best case they do. The mod has no effect on anything else so it can only help. It has no choice but to help when compaired to nothing. Its a cheap mod so IMO worth doing (obviously).

trailrider, good point on the threads and has me thinking now. Why couldn't a guy just fill up the whole void around the stud or bolt with black RTV? I'm thinking about squeezing a blob in before the oring and coating the oring just before the washer go's down now.
What say you guys?

 

[great white]

Not much at this time. Going to look into "oring'ing" the head studs today, roller rockers and studs. Thats about it.

Not to be a negative Nelly, but undercutting the head surface for those o rings is going to change your torque reading on the nuts. Just eyeballing those chamfers in teh videos, it looks like you've removed roughly 50% of the washer/nut shoulder area. That's fairly large in engineering terms.

Dry or wet torquing takes into account the interface between nuts/washers and surface as well as thread interface. This is all to ensure proper fastener stretch and clamping forces. Lubricated torque removes a lot of the friction and transfers more from overcoming friction to preloading the bolt. That's why places like ARP will give you a lubed torque specifcation.

The effect from undercutting the surface may be small, it may not.

With it undercut, I'm not sure if you could even use and angle guage to confirm clamping.

I guess its kind of moot anyways: the chamfers are made.

Run 'er and see what cha get!

 

[turbovanman]

Ok, I just never noticed anyone identifying which type of oring. And yes viton is great for the valve seal, the added hydrocarbons in the oil help them at temps above 250, but the addition of water at 180 will cause them to break down and if in the cooling jacket and the thread locker was not applied.

I just don't want to see someone not understanding a failure after 2-3 years of use honking the headgasket failed when it could be just $5 more for a different type of oring. And all respect to those forging the way with these issues way ahead of me. I love the oring idea. If I should find my way back into my optimizer...

Great post on o ring material, most don't even consider but I think it was brought up before, can't remember lol. I think mine are seeping but can't be 100% sure.

If ya think about it, the fluid is leaking past the thread portion of the stud at the top... a o-ring might help some but it won't completely seal against the threads thus the leaking with any psi in the cooling system pushing fluid past the threads...

A zero psi cooling system will prevent this completely by not pushing fluid out.... well it did for me anyway...

Do they rest on the threads or on the smooth part? Agree'd on the Evans but even without pressure, it would still probably seep up and out.

At worst case they don't help, best case they do. The mod has no effect on anything else so it can only help. It has no choice but to help when compaired to nothing. Its a cheap mod so IMO worth doing (obviously).

trailrider, good point on the threads and has me thinking now. Why couldn't a guy just fill up the whole void around the stud or bolt with black RTV? I'm thinking about squeezing a blob in before the oring and coating the oring just before the washer go's down now.
What say you guys?

You'd need something that would dry without air as RTV needs air. Ever taken apart an engine and you found goopy RTV? Anerobic might do the job, fill the cavity then torque, it would seal up without air, hmmmmm.

 

[Will L.]

Even if the rtv didn't cure completely it would be filling the cavity and preventing the passage of oil or water or waterless coolant. Just like lineman football 101- plug the gap. (You guys are going to get me on that waterless sooner or later, I hear the footsteps behind me.) Leroy, I use blue lctite on studs, but ther than studs I use "the right stuff" and out of hundreds of times never had a leaker- I say a thin coat on the top half of the stud between the headgasket and oring.

GreatWhite, the reduced head material would be negated by the washers spreading the load over the orings replacing the mia metal, I would think.?.
That's, why I was concearned about oring failure causing micro collapse of structure for the fastener allowing a created gap down the road altering clamping force.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Do they rest on the threads or on the smooth part?

Yes, the threads go well into water so what ever ya put in there is against the threads...

Just for the heck of the thread, a person could easily see how well the cooling system will hold pressure before you finish and put whatever coolant you chose in....

You already have the top of the motor apart, water crossover, w/pump off... make metal plates to cap off the crossover holes, and the w/pump holes.. in one of the caps, thread it and put a valve & gauge in and do a leak down test with air and you can use soapy water and check for bubbles around the studs.... yes it would take a little time but would tell the tale....

 

[schiker]

Just food for thought why not go a little heavier on the loc tite? For this application its not going to contaminate a hydraulic system so within reason squirt it on and let it drip off the bolt in a ring a few threads up from bottom say threads 4-10? Heck drip a drop in the female thread too a little way down corresponding to the same threads 4-10 on the stud. Its not like NPT thread where the first few threads of the male have a lot of clearance. A lot is going to squish off the thread screwing it in. The bottom of the thread might be relatively dry in comparison to top. I wonder about it being a machine thread not NPT and having a decent length of scrub off effect. Use a rag or Q-tip or other to wick up the excess as it "squeegees" off.

I have always heard people argue merits of pipe dope vs Teflon tape when and when not to use either. Then had a good ole boy say heck he uses both at the same time on some stuff.

I think mostly its all about being neat with either don't use too much when its critical. When it matters stay off the first thread or 2 with tape especially on NPT.

My suggestion is look at thread engagement length and put one wrap of Teflon tape at top of threads and coat with loc tite ring on threads 4-10. Plus put a drop on the female threads about the depth threads 4-10 on the stud ????

Clean up after install take an exacto knife, razor, and or little pick and clean off the top of head/stud at the deck.

 

[great white]

GreatWhite, the reduced head material would be negated by the washers spreading the load over the orings replacing the mia metal, I would think.?.

Nope. Main issue is with using a regular torque wrench procedure is the missing material adding to the friction load. Not so much in retaining the bolt/but, but then change in torque value resulting from the missing material. Its all about getting the proper stretch on the fastener in order to ensure correct clamping.

I'm not sure even using an angle guage would let you know if you were in spec or not?

Supporting substructure is a different (but valid) discussion.

As I said, its all moot anyways. The deed is done, run what cha brung!

 

[great white]

I'm a fan of using a product designed for the job at hand:

http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/141298_LT5546_HeadBolt_SSF437597.pdf

Anything that goes into a water jacket requires a sealant. Nothing new there. I just don't see the point in using rtv, Teflon tape, pipe dope (are we working on household plumbing here?), etc when there's stuff specifically designed for the application.

Your call.

 

[Burning oil]

Heads are back on, everything went smooth. What I did was fill the area under the oring with Right Stuff. It worked out real nice I was able to use the nozzel and apply exactly to the area. Then intalled the orings, washers, nuts. Torqued to 110#s. Thats 20 more than ARP called for.
Ran out of time, but plan to paint it tomorrow.




Got the oil pan installed. Put a quick coat of paint on it to protect the raw aluminium.

 

[NVW]

Looks good Leroy, will that pan fit above the dif.?

What's with the block heater? You're in Texas.

 

[6.2 turbo]

I assume you removed the oil plug under the filter,since the cooler ports are plugged.

 

[turbovanman]

Yes, the threads go well into water so what ever ya put in there is against the threads...

Just for the heck of the thread, a person could easily see how well the cooling system will hold pressure before you finish and put whatever coolant you chose in....

You already have the top of the motor apart, water crossover, w/pump off... make metal plates to cap off the crossover holes, and the w/pump holes.. in one of the caps, thread it and put a valve & gauge in and do a leak down test with air and you can use soapy water and check for bubbles around the studs.... yes it would take a little time but would tell the tale....

I am not talking about the block end, but the head end, I can't remember if the threads go below the head.

The engine is coming out in a few months, currently building a GEP, so at this point, I don't care and in a van, forget it,

Just food for thought why not go a little heavier on the loc tite? For this application its not going to contaminate a hydraulic system so within reason squirt it on and let it drip off the bolt in a ring a few threads up from bottom say threads 4-10? Heck drip a drop in the female thread too a little way down corresponding to the same threads 4-10 on the stud. Its not like NPT thread where the first few threads of the male have a lot of clearance. A lot is going to squish off the thread screwing it in. The bottom of the thread might be relatively dry in comparison to top. I wonder about it being a machine thread not NPT and having a decent length of scrub off effect. Use a rag or Q-tip or other to wick up the excess as it "squeegees" off.

I have always heard people argue merits of pipe dope vs Teflon tape when and when not to use either. Then had a good ole boy say heck he uses both at the same time on some stuff.

I think mostly its all about being neat with either don't use too much when its critical. When it matters stay off the first thread or 2 with tape especially on NPT.

My suggestion is look at thread engagement length and put one wrap of Teflon tape at top of threads and coat with loc tite ring on threads 4-10. Plus put a drop on the female threads about the depth threads 4-10 on the stud ????

Clean up after install take an exacto knife, razor, and or little pick and clean off the top of head/stud at the deck.

I used the proper stuff, used it for 20+ years, but it seems it didn't work this time? Its Permatex liquid teflon sealer. Someone said its due to the thread pitch on this application, it squeezes out the sealer. When I redo mine, its getting loctite and o-rings and maybe for extra analness, fill the void with anerobic sealer.

 

[NVW]

I've had almost zero success with Permatex liquid teflon on hyd. fittings. I would use teflon tape before I would use liquid teflon on studs. Tape has always worked on hyd. fittings M2C.

 

[Burning oil]

Looks good Leroy, will that pan fit above the dif.?

What's with the block heater? You're in Texas.

Thank you. Pan is supposed to fit SCtrailrider confirmed that.

 

[Burning oil]

I assume you removed the oil plug under the filter,since the cooler ports are plugged.

I didn't understand the ?

 

[Burning oil]

I am not talking about the block end, but the head end, I can't remember if the threads go below the head.


When I redo mine, its getting loctite and o-rings and maybe for extra analness, fill the void with anerobic sealer.

The threads sit above the bolt hole so yes the oring sits on the threaded part. That was why I used the "Right Stuff" sealant to fill any possible void that the oring may have not sealed.