97 hard start suddenly

[dbrannon79]

The filter I have with the clear bowl on my 95 came with a 12 micron filter, it uses a standard racor r12t filter. those filters can be had in various micron ratings. I run a fleetguard 2 micron filter on it. don't know if it filters water but has the bowl so water will drop to the bottom and you can see it.

@royunion this entire filter housing is small and might work well for a van. here is the link on amazon for it. If you decide to go with this one like I did, don't use the brass fittings or plugs that come with it, go to the local hardware store and get new. the ones that come with it are cheap chineesium, the threads are cut where the plugs will bottom out and still leak even with gobs of thread tape.

Amazon.com

 

[dbrannon79]

The nice part of it is the housing has two inlet and outlet fittings that are 1/4" npt. you can easily add a fuel pressure gauge on it for testing fuel pressure weather it be a gauge directly on the housing or for mounting one on the dash, though you don't want a live fuel line permanently going into the cab for safety reasons. it also has a threaded port on the bowl for a water sensor too.

 

[royunion]

Remember guys- he has a van not pickup. Roy- it would really help if you ad the rig to your signature line and all modifications. Then you won’t get “lift the bed” or such suggestions. The vans don’t have the ffm on the intake like pickups. They have a center mounted turbo there and a completely different intake manifold. Same set up as hummer/hmmwv. The FFM in vans is on frame near drivers door.

To be clear- I wasn’t suggesting trying to re seal the ip. Thats a nightmare.

They call it the FFM (fuel filter manager) because besides filter its the heater (which you and I don’t need where we live) and WIF (water in fuel) sensor. the WIF triggers and that day you need to replace the filter. Originally the coating on the Delco filter would seperate 90% of the water up to 2 tablespoons over a 50 gallon volume. This was before they started putting methanol, ethanol, etc into all of our diesel. Now the alcohol in it absorbs water and keeps it in suspension allowing it to pass through the fuel filter. And many other brand filters made for this unit were proven to have ZERO water separation or absorption abilities. So most people add a real water separator like you see in Doug’s 2nd picture on the firewall.
Sux to have an additional cost but it’s far better than replacing injection parts and pistons. Last time I was in Orange County their pumps said 10% oxygenated fuel (which is alcohol) so you might consider adding one.

Another consideration is replacing the factory ffm all together. It has a nominal 5 micron rating ORIGINALLY but recent tests of the delco filter put it closer to 10 micron. Fass fuel filter water separator currently is the best for it at 99.96% !!
Their spin on filter for fuel is 10 micron nominal and run as polisher unit is good for 30,000 miles- but how our system does it should run more like 50,000 miles since we don’t recycle 100 gph through it non stop. There are plenty of other spin on filters that are 5 micron. Almost all the vans and trucks in fleets around here almost all went to this years ago with great success. The smaller and cheaper spinons are size of our regular oil filters and last about 15,000 miles. Being able to see the water and drain it easily is a game changer.

As little work as possible. Here is pic of the water in fuel sensor. As you can see the washer is cut funky so it can leak. The stud that got the jb weld was be unscrewing the sensor bolt completely putting jb weld light on the threads near the upper only and threading it back in. No jb weld is exposed to the inside of the filter. Water conducts electricity so when it reaches the top it grounds out setting the water in fuel light

I run mostly R99 or R95 high cetane biomass fuel anyway

 

[dbrannon79]

Off the subject, I have yet to figure out why the jungle site puts this message on links to products. I am not an associate or affiliated in any way with them or products on the site!

 

[royunion]

The nice part of it is the housing has two inlet and outlet fittings that are 1/4" npt. you can easily add a fuel pressure gauge on it for testing fuel pressure weather it be a gauge directly on the housing or for mounting one on the dash, though you don't want a live fuel line permanently going into the cab for safety reasons. it also has a threaded port on the bowl for a water sensor too.

Yeah, cute but I would never use that because it mounts under the van. As it is the OEM one has a protective steel deflection shield that must be removed to get at the filter. It was hit once by a piece of road debris once and did its job. It is bad enough I have the regulator hanging under there on the frame rail near the lift pump

 

[Will L.]

Yes, I am aware of what the original unit is and how it works in vans ve trucks, vs older 6.2 trucks, etc. my point is the amount of water the filter can stop is exceeded by time the water triggers the alarm. The biofuel is worse for the issue. Original diesel fuel never had algae issues but new stuff does- ESPECIALLY bio fuels because the algae survives in the suspended water, it does not survive the straight hydrocarbon fuel. Just offering info and options.
If you can do the research to learn what everyone else is telling you and doing it to their trucks for reason- if you don’t want to remove the subpar filter usit and replace it with something better-that your decision.

You said the problems began with the leak. You tried to bubble gum it together (which we all have from time to time) and you still have the problem. The root issue seems pretty obvious. The verification test given by Stanandyne and by GM is the clear return line. If you don’t want to do that, your call. Best of luck to you in solving it. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Glagulator]

Just curious, is this the FFM your van uses?

 

[royunion]

Yes, I am aware of what the original unit is and how it works in vans ve trucks, vs older 6.2 trucks, etc. my point is the amount of water the filter can stop is exceeded by time the water triggers the alarm. The biofuel is worse for the issue. Original diesel fuel never had algae issues but new stuff does- ESPECIALLY bio fuels because the algae survives in the suspended water, it does not survive the straight hydrocarbon fuel. Just offering info and options.
If you can do the research to learn what everyone else is telling you and doing it to their trucks for reason- if you don’t want to remove the subpar filter usit and replace it with something better-that your decision.

You said the problems began with the leak. You tried to bubble gum it together (which we all have from time to time) and you still have the problem. The root issue seems pretty obvious. The verification test given by Stanandyne and by GM is the clear return line. If you don’t want to do that, your call. Best of luck to you in solving it. Let us know how it turns out.

I don't run biodiesel. On occasion I might top off the tank with b20 if it is cheaper. As I said I run r99 or r95

R99 alleviates most of the issues that were present with the biodiesel blend. R99, unlike biodiesel, is hydrogenated, meaning the oxygen molecules are removed during the refining process. This is a significant advantage for storage and cold weather performance.

There are none of the water issues to deal with using R99 that were problematic with biodiesel. Water that was present in biodiesel had to be treated to displace the water and prevent it from entering the diesel engines and being burned.

They call it "biomass" but it is truly a different product.
I do run a biocide about twice a year. The DS4 - especially if run with low fuel pressure will collect algae in the optic sensor timing wheel cavity, and then it is bye bye IP

They came into the shop all the time for rebuild with wheels damaged so bad the rebuild was too costly. Between burnt up fuel solenoids and screwed up optic sensors and wheels they were not economic rebuilds.

I don't disagree that filter is crap as an OEM part but, then again the entire 6.5 is.

A Vortec, 4 bolt main built with 10:1 corvette pistons supercharged is standing by to go in the van to run E85

I agree there may be an air leak in problem, but I am not interested in burying money in the diesel soon to come out.

About the same time the leak stopped, the extended cranking due the air, had run the batteries down, and the starter was cranking slower even when I charged the batteries fully.

On E85 that filter style would be fine

So now I just swapped the starter, but taking a rest because the batteries are needing a charge

Trying to start it the bendix and solenoid went out, so I had no choice anyway.

I need to solve this problem first, and if it turns out to be the CPS or IP the diesel Era ends and it is coming out for the vortec instead

 

[royunion]

Just curious, is this the FFM your van uses?View attachment 90794

Yes

 

[Will L.]

Everyone has their breaking point in the 6.5 world. I had to take a break away for some years then must have hit my head because I got back into it. Haha.

Please do a favor to the next guy down the road and make your 6.5 stuff available to buy rather than scrap weight when you do move on. They aren’t worth much resell but can help a feller keep food on the table by getting to work.

A simple test you could do to show if it’s your ffm- just bypass it. Put a couple fittings and a chunk of hose together. Put a small in-line fuel filter like a lawn mower uses for the test, many are 10 micron. It won’t catch all the micro stuff but will catch enough to be fine for a little while of testing. The filters are like $5 and you need a $1 adapter since the filter is 3/8 both sides and the output hose you have is 5/16”. Then a scrap 4” long piece of 3/8” hose to connect them.

Or easier is buy the $8 ones on amzon that are glass filter housing and have 1/4;5/16;3/8 fittings with it. They are usually 30-50 microns but ok for dimple diagnostics. Then you can draw from tank through whole system and only bypass the questionable filter fix. You don’t even have to remove your current filter to do this- just two hoses.

 

[royunion]

Yeah, I already thought to bypass it with a with a remote spin on adapter I have collecting dust, and ordered fittings from Amazon to a locker delivery. Then a couple of employees quit and the store started keeping irregular hours closed for almost a week, and my deliveries never happened and I spent all day on the chat getting Amazon to cancel and refund. Meanwhile it got worse and I posted here cussing the thing. I believed I knew the problem was air and approaching battery run down from extended cranking, but I was beginning to doubt.

After putting on the new starter and charging the batteries I gave it a shot of ether from a cold night low forties here, but it spun so fast it started, and then drew the ether through the long intercooler piping which killed it.

Spent the next two hours flooding it and trying to clear it, and had to put back on charge. When the voltmeter hit 14.0 volts fast charging, I cranked it and it kicked out the last of the starting fluids and started

The suggestion you gave me to run the lift pump boogie woogie with the key on so the shut off solenoid opened letting fuel in and though the IP actually did the trick to an easy start.

So as soon as I can, off comes that filter for another brand, as since if I wiggle it to tighten the water separaor sensor it leaks at the top, then I will make my own washer and put on the other brand. I will also switch back to the more positive lock off backflow valve.

I always make work for myself it seems. Putting on the starter, the solenoid heat shield fell off so I opted to push it in after the starter bolts got started. Time consuming but it worked hower now it rattles at idle. Also the starter wire (key on activation) I left off knowing I could reach it through wheel well. That turned out to be a two hour into the darkness, two handed one finger each hand careful nightmare to thread the nut on I dropped at least 70 times.

Drove to Walmart for two more cans of starting fluid El cheapo just in case. The carb cleaner is an easier start, but won't work from a cold engine. Came out, and did not recognize the starter spin sound so fast and within five seconds it started, however it previously started instantly warm. I will take it.

I was in the middle of an LS style conversion on the engine with COP ignition

It means a 1x sensor to the cam gear and machining the timing gear cover for the sensor and it too can become a high compression E85 burner with a turbo.

I am not betting this working will hold up, but at least the starter issue is gone as that was easy because the van has a wider frame than trucks for easier starter swap

Thanks for that suggestion

 

[Will L.]

So there is instructions not to use starting fluid. The known issue is it can blow a head gasket, lift a head plumb off, etc.
The other reasons are: it destroys glow plugs by crystalizing the surface. They will ohm out good (use normal power) so electrical testing will SAY they are good. But only heat up about half as hot as before. Then over time it weakens the heating element that will break off.
So I suggest buying the new set of Delco 60Gs now. There is a tremendous amount of idiots saying it’s ok to just let the engine spit them out. If you want pics of destroyed pistons, precups, etc from broken off glow tips just search my pics.

 

[royunion]

So there is instructions not to use starting fluid. The known issue is it can blow a head gasket, lift a head plumb off, etc.
The other reasons are: it destroys glow plugs by crystalizing the surface. They will ohm out good (use normal power) so electrical testing will SAY they are good. But only heat up about half as hot as before. Then over time it weakens the heating element that will break off.
So I suggest buying the new set of Delco 60Gs now. There is a tremendous amount of idiots saying it’s ok to just let the engine spit them out. If you want pics of destroyed pistons, precups, etc from broken off glow tips just search my pics.

Yeah, I was hoping it was fixed but after it got cold,, then the new starter apparently has a shorter throw on the bendix because cranking it would not stay engaged.

The Bosch I took out - the three under power all glowed red within 10 seconds at the tip, but I didn't continue to if the entire shaft got red

I am going to have to swap the starter again for a good one removed and kept as a spare 9 years ago when it was a bad ground for slow crank.

I think I am screwed and done with this thing

Too much work caused by silly things that cascade

 

[Will L.]

If you were going to keep it a while I would say get a powermaster 9052.
But you haven’t mentioned how much longer you plan to run it.
Probably an Oriellys special is better if it is on its way out.

Get another filter unit wether another van type or aftermarket. With it running properly there is some value to sell. Without it running well it’s worth scrap weight.

 

[royunion]

If you were going to keep it a while I would say get a powermaster 9052.
But you haven’t mentioned how much longer you plan to run it.
Probably an Oriellys special is better if it is on its way out.

Get another filter unit wether another van type or aftermarket. With it running properly there is some value to sell. Without it running well it’s worth scrap weight.

Yeah, not going to spend more money on. Diesel. The motor is coming out

 

[MrMarty51]

Yeah, not going to spend more money on. Diesel. The motor is coming out

I do hope that You will be posting parts for sale, in that section of this forum.

 

[Will L.]

If you can- take a few pics along the way and do a dedicated thread for it. There are others it will help and little details you otherwise may forget years down the road, you can come back here and look exactly how you did it.

If you simply pack some silly puddy or bees wax around the air sucking place- make some phone videos of the engine running- revving it up to show no knocking, no smoke, do the loose filler cap thing to show no blow by before removing the engine. Then people can see it is a runner and not wonder if they are buying a blown out engine. Imo that time is worth the couple hundred bucks.
It’s almost never a guy sees the engine running before you get it pulled.
Unless its someone reading this forum near you. Then I have seen guys make the deal- help me remove this engine and drop the other one into place instead of paying me the $ as the cost. Labor help can be a better trade for some folks.

Your other engine- do you have the torque converter for it? You don’t want the diesel one for that gas engine. You can go with a stock one for the gas van or make changes with it based on your needs. Say if you tow heavy, have it loaded with tools and parts if a service van, etc.
Some places sell rebuilt converters but if done wrong can cost you the transmission so I don’t like the risk/reward ratio.

Is your plan to eliminate the ecm and use a $600 stand alone controller,
Or buy a junkyard gas ecm and rewire the van?
Less $ obviously to swap the parts but finding them and the labor is a pain.

I have seen guys with db2 convert to gas and try running the TCM and just adapt in the an rpm sensor to match. the tps adaption is easy. But the difference how the transmission acts when the gas engine goes over 4,000 rpm ends up destroying the trans. The shifting points are more controlled in the ECM.

In California - just hit me. You have no option to go with the full frontal wire harness replacement. Are you sure you can go diesel to gas conversion? I know people have sold trucks here in Nevada that were converted gas to diesel and your DMV flat refuses to let them be registered come smog check time.
The rules got tight a couple years ago they said. Now Nevada is talking about copying that dumb idea too.

 

[royunion]

If you can- take a few pics along the way and do a dedicated thread for it. There are others it will help and little details you otherwise may forget years down the road, you can come back here and look exactly how you did it.

If you simply pack some silly puddy or bees wax around the air sucking place- make some phone videos of the engine running- revving it up to show no knocking, no smoke, do the loose filler cap thing to show no blow by before removing the engine. Then people can see it is a runner and not wonder if they are buying a blown out engine. Imo that time is worth the couple hundred bucks.
It’s almost never a guy sees the engine running before you get it pulled.
Unless its someone reading this forum near you. Then I have seen guys make the deal- help me remove this engine and drop the other one into place instead of paying me the $ as the cost. Labor help can be a better trade for some folks.

Your other engine- do you have the torque converter for it? You don’t want the diesel one for that gas engine. You can go with a stock one for the gas van or make changes with it based on your needs. Say if you tow heavy, have it loaded with tools and parts if a service van, etc.
Some places sell rebuilt converters but if done wrong can cost you the transmission so I don’t like the risk/reward ratio.

Is your plan to eliminate the ecm and use a $600 stand alone controller,
Or buy a junkyard gas ecm and rewire the van?
Less $ obviously to swap the parts but finding them and the labor is a pain.

I have seen guys with db2 convert to gas and try running the TCM and just adapt in the an rpm sensor to match. the tps adaption is easy. But the difference how the transmission acts when the gas engine goes over 4,000 rpm ends up destroying the trans. The shifting points are more controlled in the ECM.

In California - just hit me. You have no option to go with the full frontal wire harness replacement. Are you sure you can go diesel to gas conversion? I know people have sold trucks here in Nevada that were converted gas to diesel and your DMV flat refuses to let them be registered come smog check time.
The rules got tight a couple years ago they said. Now Nevada is talking about copying that dumb idea too.

The Vortec is from a 1999 van and I have the ECM and wiring harness. It is bolted to a built 700r4

1997 was the last year smog check exempt in California for a diesel. An engine swap must be OEM complete down to catalytic converters. The state would have no reason to know, but they would send it to a referee for inspection and smog

We are an EPA registered alternative fueling solution supplier and I have been in touch with them about vending our products and services, and the latest memo1a allows it so long as the OEM system is complete an unaltered to defeat emissions equipment. No one knows what will happen to the EPA if Trump is sworn in

It is a van motor in a van that is impractical to lift the body to swap the engine. Therefore the upper manifolds must removed to cherry pick it out the front. For both engines the other is in a van too.

I would consider giving the engine to whomever wants to do a double remove swap

I am looking into all it would take to get it done.

 

[dbrannon79]

I would come and do the swap to have a good engine for my truck but your a little far from my area.

just curious on the other van, if it's a decent van of the same weight class, even lighter weight doing a suspension swap, would it be more practical to fix it up using parts from your current one? body parts, interior and whatnot swapping into the gasser van might be an easier option. taking the best parts from your diesel van for the gasser. even if you had to swap out axles for the better one?

 

[royunion]

I would come and do the swap to have a good engine for my truck but your a little far from my area.

just curious on the other van, if it's a decent van of the same weight class, even lighter weight doing a suspension swap, would it be more practical to fix it up using parts from your current one? body parts, interior and whatnot swapping into the gasser van might be an easier option. taking the best parts from your diesel van for the gasser. even if you had to swap out axles for the better one?

A van engine won't fit in a truck. The turbo in the rear does not clear the firewall. The parts being the heads and intake are different. The other van is a GM G30 early cutaway dually that will be junked.