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210 hot or NOT?

6.2 turbo said:
On my Tahoe motor I connected the two rear coolant block off plates ,with a tee and ran that to the heater,which will return into the radiator. I don't know how well it will work,but I've seen lots of v8 gas motors with RR heater outlets. It seems to be the hottest spot
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what you are attempting is a balance flow. That was Heaths first solution to cooling. TD has it on his truck except the t'd lines are dumped back into the thermostat housing via installed barb. I just don't remember if it was pre or post thremostat but TD put pics up somewhere .
 
I think if the fan kicks in with a good clutch its going to be hard to keep the temps up. So doing the free fan clutch mod is a great thing. But it does help to have a better fan.

I personally dont think that hovering between 210F-220F is going to destroy your engine. We may have exaggerated the overheating problem to a fault. Many blocks have failed, many pistons have been broken, and cylinder walls ate up, but more than likely these saw actual overheating a few times, like 250-260F. There are also others that have run them to 250 for hours and not had them break. The cooling system was designed to keep it under 260F I think, is that the red on the guage? Obviously that is unacceptable, but have we done the thorough testing to prove that 210 is the temp or 220 or 225 ect...

I personally would not be worried about 210F ECT, but its a good point to get the fan clutch to engage, so you dont get much higher.

These trucks have a towing problem, that is known, but by 2000 GM did address some of the known issues, and at least we dont have to put a bunch of aftermarket parts on it, all OEM stuff just from other years that bolts right up. I know IATs play a big roll in peak cylinder temps and EGTs, and my truck, even with low flow water pump, but Dmax fan and ATT with big exhaust could easily pull a car on a steel trailer without ever getting hot on EGTs or ECTs. That is without WMI or Propane.

So paranoia is part of it, and GM's inadequate setup before 1997 is another factor. In late 1999 models they introduced a new water pump that helps the flow balance, so no extra hardware needed.

I know Greg has put a lot of love into his 6.5s, I don't fault anyone for a little 6.5 complaining, Kenny takes the cake for that though. They can definately be frustrating.
 
Almost every gas powered vehicle that comes into our shop runs at 210 degrees. Also in the early 90's GM small cars ,the electric fans would not come on until 220 degrees. My friends 04 Dodge Cummins diesel also runs at 210 .
 
Bigburban said:
I have done alot of mods too and still can spike temps up in a heart beat with this engine! It does get frustrating! Thought many times to just sell it!
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Don't know how the rest of my text didn't make it but with that said I also think d-max fan and cluch is one of the best mods if not the best mod I have added to the burban simple to do and you can by the whole thing or the parts. All I had to do was trim the inner lip that is on the top shroud and no problems with clearance. If I am gettin on it and temps go up they will go down in no time seems to also help with the ac.
 
I have owned several 6.5s and driven many. I owned a 2000 new. That truck had the usual late fan clutch engagement issues from the word go, but never ran much hotter than 215 or so max, then fan kicks in and back to about 195ish. It was a C3500HD dump truck so lots of heavy loads there.

I also owned a 93 K2500HD which I bought used. That truck had been retrofitted with a direct drive fan by the previous owner, and it never went about 210 ever, towing, snowplowing, a/c on, did not matter. Issue was have to listen to that fan all the time. It was an aftermarket fan of some type.

I currently have a 92 K2500HD, identical truck to my old 93. My radiator is new (aluminum), my condenser is clean. I have AC Delco 190 stat installed. Fan is a SS Diesel severe duty setup. 4" Diamond Eye exhaust. Towing with the a/c on this truck will just touch 210, but by then fan is fully engaged and temps drop pretty quick. I have noticed that on hot days (close to 90) the truck runs at least 10 degrees cooler overall without running the a/c when towing. When i say towing I am talking at least 6000 lbs. I would like to install a k47 air box and see if that make much difference.

I also have a Cummins and yes it too will see 210 also when towing heavy. Fan engages about that point. It is a 3500 with 6 speed manual.

These are just my observations, but i'd have to say that through the years many have towed many heavy loads, across the country with these trucks with success. I had a friend who bought a 94 brand new and hauled his 34' fifth wheel all over the USA with no problems, and his backhoe around town with no problems. Most people don't even consider the fan clutch and a clean radiator as a part of routine maitenance. Bottom line is any propertly maintained 6.5 should have zero issues hauling 4500 lbs around... if it is ther is some other problem unseen in my experience. We used to routinely haul an enclosed trailer with my 00 an 93 wieghing in about 6k with no overheat isssues at all, and you could climb any hill as fast as you wanted to go.
 
buddy said:
I think if the fan kicks in with a good clutch its going to be hard to keep the temps up. So doing the free fan clutch mod is a great thing. But it does help to have a better fan.

I personally dont think that hovering between 210F-220F is going to destroy your engine. We may have exaggerated the overheating problem to a fault. Many blocks have failed, many pistons have been broken, and cylinder walls ate up, but more than likely these saw actual overheating a few times, like 250-260F. There are also others that have run them to 250 for hours and not had them break. The cooling system was designed to keep it under 260F I think, is that the red on the guage? Obviously that is unacceptable, but have we done the thorough testing to prove that 210 is the temp or 220 or 225 ect...

I personally would not be worried about 210F ECT, but its a good point to get the fan clutch to engage, so you dont get much higher.

These trucks have a towing problem, that is known, but by 2000 GM did address some of the known issues, and at least we dont have to put a bunch of aftermarket parts on it, all OEM stuff just from other years that bolts right up. I know IATs play a big roll in peak cylinder temps and EGTs, and my truck, even with low flow water pump, but Dmax fan and ATT with big exhaust could easily pull a car on a steel trailer without ever getting hot on EGTs or ECTs. That is without WMI or Propane.

So paranoia is part of it, and GM's inadequate setup before 1997 is another factor. In late 1999 models they introduced a new water pump that helps the flow balance, so no extra hardware needed.

I know Greg has put a lot of love into his 6.5s, I don't fault anyone for a little 6.5 complaining, Kenny takes the cake for that though. They can definately be frustrating.
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I'm not being sarcastic as written words canbe often construed but how many 6.xx truck have you owned and what have to towed with them ? You are comparing your 2wd truck towing a car trailer vs a 4x4 truck towing a camper. Huge difference. I can tow a decent size(5 ton) Mini Ex behind my truck with little or no issue but as soon as I put the camper behind it, that is when the issues start. Towing campers put much much more strain so my complaints are legitimate and I am not the only one. I don't rant about that it's a POS and 6.5's are garbage or anything like that but I also hold no delusions that a 6.5 is anywhere near what a 7.3 PS, A Dmax or a Cummins. It just aint and anyone who thinks it is is dreaming I have tried all the "usual" cures and found them to be inadequate. Some helped some made it worse IMHO. I am currently working on what I believe is a better solution. Maybe I'll piss money away and it won't help, heck might even be worse but I have been around diesels my entire life from Mack, Cat, Detroit(real Detroit) Cummins Navistar etc. I did heads on a 6v53 when I was 16 yrs old. I didn't even have a drivers license. I don't like electronics on these and never did but when it comes to wrenchin there is not much I have not seen so please don't degrade me like some backyard hack with his first diesel. I can assure you I have way more experience with diesel engines than most. I even went to College for it. I still think the radiators are way too small and don't get enough airflow and forcing the air though it via the engine fan is not the way it should work. I proved that years ago when I made it out of NYC to Kings Park Long Island with a 425 Cat that lost the Horton air clutch. I crept to the highway with frequent cool down stops and once I made it to the highway(it was 90 out) I made it back to KP without breaking sweat until I got off the highway. At highway speeds the fan should not be forcing the air through the Rad. That in itself underlines the problem that the rad is not getting rid of the heat. The next issue is these engine share a similarity with 3208T cats which had a turbo and no IC. They ran hot as well and had HG issues. These engines should have had an intercooler. All the rest to me is just bandaids. Easy smart driving and some upgrades help but I truly want to see a better way. I got a 4 core brass copper rad from a 93 that is going to the rad shop tommorow and I want to see if I can make it 5 core. If not I'll try the 4. I think it will make a big difference. I would have like to run the oil cooler into it and lose the one up front as well. It's blocking a huge amount of air.
 
Like I said, I dont fault anyone for a few ill comments toward the trucks, a little tongue and cheek is good for a little humor and humility. No negative conotations against anyone, just lightening the mood.

I didnt post my experience towing cars on the trailer as a direct comparison, and I dont have the best towing setup, just the towing I have done with the truck. I don't even have the things I recommend to people that plan to tow. My recommendations, or the recipe I prescribe to is available to read. Ambient air temp makes a big difference, because running the air conditioner in 105F traffic, ECTs can easily get over 200F not towing anything. An intercooler or WMI would improve cylinder temps quite a bit.

regardless of the year or model I dont think 210F is going to hurt it, get it to 220 and then I might be getting worried and taking evasive maneuvers to cool it down.
 
My 93 Runs 210 consistently without towing. I'm working on upgrades. I know is has the wrong rad in it and thermostat. I am waiting for my custom built one to be finished and then the 3 core Aluminum one from the burb will be recycled into my 93 along with a 99+ WP and better fan setup. I don't really plan to tow with it but the rad in it is junk and the rest is easy to do while the rad is out anyway so stupid not to do it and i have the factory WP off my 2000 which will be recycled as well.
 
So now I am going to jump in this one with both feet kickin and flailing. Here are the facts......I been towing since when most pickup drivers today were wearing diapers and pooping yeller, I am a newbie to diesels, I am still learning and hope to continue to do so cause the other option is to be 6 ft under and miss the sunrise from now on! LOL

First thing is all u guys talk about is these trucks dont tow well, these trucks run hot, these trucks dont have power!!!!! I just bought one of these trucks and did so knowing that it could tow, would TOW, AND OTHER FOLKS DONT HAVE A BIG ISSUE WITH THESES BLAME TRUCKS TOWING!!!!!

I go to horseback trailrides and horseshows that have 1200 people there and they all TOWED a horse trailer there and a lot of them are factory living quarters that also hauled four 1000-1400 lb horses and the feed and water for those critters in addition to human food etc ( etc to u Ace would be a ample supply of white likker LOL).

These trailers are like a camper with big square front ends, no I REPEAT NO AERODYNAMICS! I pulled a 36 foot gooseneck mild steel trailer with 6 HUGE broodmares (pregnant and 1500 lbs each) two Febuarys ago from here to 4 different breeding farms in Kentucky. I went all over that state on roads it would take Sherpas to build! Mountains like were formed when God broke the world and called it the Blue Ridge Mountains of Appalachia!

I used a friends trailer cause mine was too small, this one was 8 ft wide and 7 ft tall and built to haul rowdy livestock. I borrowed the neighbors 1999 diesel Chevy dually, dont know what motor, but she pulled like a pissed off billy goat n those mountains and ran like a raped ape on the flats! Now dont tell me that THESE TRUCKS WONT TOW!

If it had egts or boost or piss in its boots I dont know because Bob the owner didnt say anything about it, I put diesel in it and watched the road and didnt hit any deer, hillbillys and only one possum so I done good!!! It had to hunker down and pull the grades but I backed off and let her eat it like she wanted to and we had a good trip.

Couldnt slow down cause had to deliver all the mares in 40 hours cause they were synchronized to come in heat to be bred so the truck was shut down for fuel and oil check, put a quart, sometimes two in every fuel stop. My girlfriend made sandwiches as we drove and took her turn driving while I slept.

Yall gotta learn something here and now..... a lot of yall are driving trucks that were meant to haul the weekly garbage and pick up the lawnmower at the repair shop and or ur truck could tow at one time but u done mods to the point that it is a top end hotrod and u drive it that way and not a work truck anymore.

We go to the trail rides and see these folks show up towing their rig with a 1500 chevy or even some with the 2500 and they are just plain overloaded and not up to the job, especially the 2500 4x4s.

Folks just cause it says 2500 dont make it a heavy hauling truck. All I hear from yall is Ford This ans That. My friends, two of em, bought Ford 3/4 ton trucks for about $55000- $60000 this year and hooked to their living quarter horse trailers and both squatted so bad it looked pitiful! One guy got air bags and the other put in some kind of solid rubber bumpers!

Most 4x4s squat worse, not a enginneer, cant tell u why, dont need a degree to see a pitiful truck draggin its tail! LOL Even a wore out one legged cowboy can tell when the loads saggin in somebodys britches! First rule is match the trailer to the truck, u wanna drive a 1500, fine u need a tent, maybe a lil bitty popup trailer.

U wanna pull a average small camper or a bumper pull horse trailer get a 3/4 ton truck, maybe a small gooseneck with a dressing room but no living quarters! U wanna really pull a load get at least a one ton dually!

Those extra wheels will do u a world of good when it comes to jack knifeing, yes thats when u look and see the trailer trying to pass u and its pushing ur rearend around and thats whats gonna happen to u folks pulling big loads with single rear wheels and u 4x4 people being up in the air taller makes ur suspension have more sway and u WILL JACK KNIFE WORSE than a 2 wheel drive truck!

Next yall gotta learn how to drive, yes I said drive! U run ur rig at what she is comfortable with, not what u want her to be like. Dont get ur wants, needs and have tos mixed up. Lets at this time repeat after me.....I know the tortoise and hare fable and I understand its significance!!!! Oh some of u aint never gonna get it but thats ok cause I now have a clear mind because I tole ya pilgrims.

To sum it up buy the trailer that will fit ur truck, otherwise its like buying the bell before u buy the bicyle...... not much fun running behind your friends riding their bicyles ringing your bell and gettin left in the dust!!! Dont end up with a jackknifed rig or a blown engine! If u aint got truck enough then dont put u and your family in jeapardy! Sell the truck if its too small and get one that works! Its called delayed gratification folks and is much nicer than the other alternatives.

Yes I know u can get a single rear well one ton truck, its not good enough for the big rigs, get the dually or a 2 ton truck or a mini Kenworth but match up the truck and the rig u gonna tow. My rig is a 20 foot box gooseneck with homemade living quarters that weighs about 4000 lbs give or take depening on how much stuff my girlfriend can cram into it plus 2 horses that weigh 1000 lbs each for a total of 6000 lbs.

I feel thats about all my old dually deserves to take on. If I want more of a trailer, and I do, then I need to get a more modern and capable truck first not the other way around.

I got a lot of horse friends that never go on the mountain trailrides or the far off ones cause they got too much trailer for their 3/4 ton truck and r in too deep to trade so they just go to the local ride and bitch about their truck.

Well there u go folks I hope yall get something out of this. I personnally feel so good I think I will go out to the Still Shed oops I mean Man Shed and see whats cooking! LOL May u ride the road of beauty!
 
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The thing with the mid to late 90s GM diesel trucks is that engine wise they are all very similar, from 1/2 ton to 1 ton its the same engine and cooling, same turbo, same exhaust, same everything. The only fundamental differences were the computer program (amount of fuel it would allow), and a little different precombustion chamber design and EGR from L56 to L65 engines. So where the tow rating of the trucks come in, you find that the 1 tons power plant was not any better than the half ton. That is the main issue. The tortoise and the hair is a good lesson, but there is a storied history of these specific engines with failures, because the owner trusted the danger zones on the gauges. The extra fueling capabilities introduced by computer program updates brings an easier path to destruction, but being able to perform better too, when done safely. To perform better just happens to require the whole system be taken into account, or be satisfied with the slow lane.

And many people dont get a diesel truck to be settling for low performance, because others will do more.
 
Very good Buddy I understand a lil better but still think they r VERY GOOD TRUCKS and folks need the suspension to match up with the trailer too. By the way the OPS mod and primer button r AWESOME!!!!
 
Must add there r differences in rear ends and trannys and tires partner that help or hinder the situation. Archimedes said give me a long enough lever and I can move the world!!!! The Japanese have proven that a tiny tiny engine hooked to the right tranny and rear end can run circles around a big bad engine american hotrod! There is a lesson there and detroit has learned it well!!!!! Too big to fail????? Think on that one.
 
orrum said:
So now I am going to jump in this one with both feet kickin and flailing. Here are the facts......I been towing since when most pickup drivers today were wearing diapers and pooping yeller, I am a newbie to diesels, I am still learning and hope to continue to do so cause the other option is to be 6 ft under and miss the sunrise from now on! LOL First thing is all u guys talk about is these trucks dont tow well, these trucks run hot, these trucks dont have power!!!!! I just bought one of these trucks and did so knowing that it could tow, would TOW, AND OTHER FOLKS DONT HAVE A BIG ISSUE WITH THESES BLAME TRUCKS TOWING!!!!! I go to horseback trailrides and horseshows that have 1200 people there and they all TOWED a horse trailer there and a lot of them are factory living quarters that also hauled four 1000-1400 lb horses and the feed and water for those critters in addition to human food etc ( etc to u Ace would be a ample supply of white likker LOL). These trailers are like a camper with big square front ends, no I REPEAT NO AERODYNAMICS! I pulled a 36 foot gooseneck mild steel trailer with 6 HUGE broodmares (pregnant and 1500 lbs each) two Febuarys ago from here to 4 different breeding farms in Kentucky. I went all over that state on roads it would take Sherpas to build! Mountains like were formed when God broke the world and called it the Blue Ridge Mountains of Appalachia! I used a friends trailer cause mine was too small, this one was 8 ft wide and 7 ft tall and built to haul rowdy livestock. I borrowed the neighbors 1999 diesel Chevy dually, dont know what motor, but she pulled like a pissed off billy goat n those mountains and ran like a raped ape on the flats! Now dont tell me that THESE TRUCKS WONT TOW! If it had egts or boost or piss in its boots I dont know because Bob the owner didnt say anything about it, I put diesel in it and watched the road and didnt hit any deer, hillbillys and only one possum so I done good!!! It had to hunker down and pull the grades but I backed off and let her eat it like she wanted to and we had a good trip. Couldnt slow down cause had to deliver all the mares in 40 hours cause they were synchronized to come in heat to be bred so the truck was shut down for fuel and oil check, put a quart, sometimes two in every fuel stop. My girlfriend made sandwiches as we drove and took her turn driving while I slept. Yall gotta learn something here and now..... a lot of yall are driving trucks that were meant to haul the weekly garbage and pick up the lawnmower at the repair shop and or ur truck could tow at one time but u done mods to the point that it is a top end hotrod and u drive it that way and not a work truck anymore. We go to the trail rides and see these folks show up towing their rig with a 1500 chevy or even some with the 2500 and they are just plain overloaded and not up to the job, especially the 2500 4x4s. Folks just cause it says 2500 dont make it a heavy hauling truck. All I hear from yall is Ford This ans That. My friends, two of em, bought Ford 3/4 ton trucks for about $55000- $60000 this year and hooked to their living quarter horse trailers and both squatted so bad it looked pitiful! One guy got air bags and the other put in some kind of solid rubber bumpers! Most 4x4s squat worse, not a enginneer, cant tell u why, dont need a degree to see a pitiful truck draggin its tail! LOL Even a wore out one legged cowboy can tell when the loads saggin in somebodys britches! First rule is match the trailer to the truck, u wanna drive a 1500, fine u need a tent, maybe a lil bitty popup trailer. U wanna pull a average small camper or a bumper pull horse trailer get a 3/4 ton truck, maybe a small gooseneck with a dressing room but no living quarters! U wanna really pull a load get at least a one ton dually! Those extra wheels will do u a world of good when it comes to jack knifeing, yes thats when u look and see the trailer trying to pass u and its pushing ur rearend around and thats whats gonna happen to u folks pulling big loads with single rear wheels and u 4x4 people being up in the air taller makes ur suspension have more sway and u WILL JACK KNIFE WORSE than a 2 wheel drive truck! Next yall gotta learn how to drive, yes I said drive! U run ur rig at what she is comfortable with, not what u want her to be like. Dont get ur wants, needs and have tos mixed up. Lets at this time repeat after me.....I know the tortoise and hare fable and I understand its significance!!!! Oh some of u aint never gonna get it but thats ok cause I now have a clear mind because I tole ya pilgrims. To sum it up buy the trailer that will fit ur truck, otherwise its like buying the bell before u buy the bicyle...... not much fun running behind your friends riding their bicyles ringing your bell and gettin left in the dust!!! Dont end up with a jackknifed rig or a blown engine! If u aint got truck enough then dont put u and your family in jeapardy! Sell the truck if its too small and get one that works! Its called delayed gratification folks and is much nicer than the other alternatives. Yes I know u can get a single rear well one ton truck, its not good enough for the big rigs, get the dually or a 2 ton truck or a mini Kenworth but match up the truck and the rig u gonna tow. My rig is a 20 foot box gooseneck with homemade living quarters that weighs about 4000 lbs give or take depening on how much stuff my girlfriend can cram into it plus 2 horses that weigh 1000 lbs each for a total of 6000 lbs. I feel thats about all my old dually deserves to take on. If I want more of a trailer, and I do, then I need to get a more modern and capable truck first not the other way around. I got a lot of horse friends that never go on the mountain trailrides or the far off ones cause they got too much trailer for their 3/4 ton truck and r in too deep to trade so they just go to the local ride and bitch about their truck. Well there u go folks I hope yall get something out of this. I personnally feel so good I think I will go out to the Still Shed oops I mean Man Shed and see whats cooking! LOL May u ride the road of beauty!
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Well said!!!
 
great post orrum, but some practice with paragraphs would be appreciated!

I think you sum it up great, let the truck take the hill how it wants, not how you want it to. I allways let the ol girl have her way on the hills, and we havent seen second gear yet, she rewards my patience with no less than third gear pulls.

I also agree on 2wd, it is the trailering mans truck! (but the world will allways need 4wds to pull our asses out of the mud! :) )

well, off to bed so I can seal the fate of the K2500 tomorrow. How often does a 4wd get killed to save a 2wd? :) engine removal continues tomorrow!
 
Well said Orrum.

Over the years on this and other forums, I have been amused by the what a truck can tow threads and the shouts of no way can that tow that etc. Then I think of all the stuff that get's towed back in England or Europe come to that with smaller vehicles and I just smile. The way I see it people have grown used to the whole towing uphill at 70mph+ routine or being able to easily overtake. The reality about that is very often those driving or what they are towing should not be doing those speeds. It's actually not a bad thing (though yes a PIA) to be in the slow lane taking it slow and steady because it is all one's vehicle can do. Honestly how many of us when towing have had near misses etc that yes maybe due to some a-hole but also were partly due to the fact that we were moving to fast for the weight that we were pulling?

Cheers
Nobby
 
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