I'm not sure who makes those, I was mistaken in my previous post the smaller the micron # the finer the filtration right? I'm told the factory will filter 5 to 7 microns? So the OEM will filter better than the Cat filter I have pictured.
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P400 in the Burb install
- Thread starter spdgofast
- Start date
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Correct. 1 micron is tiny need a microscope and 1000 micron is big- see with naked eye.
Thanks Will & thanks for the welcome back. I asked Leroy about the fuel filtering but he doesn't offer the dual setup at this time. I will take a picture under my truck, I am going to have to shorten my compressed air tank to fit all of the filters I'm trying to put under the truck.
- Staff
- #84
Typically you want to stay under 8 micron for a not so fussy fuel system. Water molecules are 8 microns, so by going smaller, you block water for the most part.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Off on that one, sorry Ferm. The one owner of the plastics to fuel company I worked for, also is on leading edge electronic water filtration and his only competition is the folks at MIT. So he drug me into the water filtering world somewhat.
Measurements are varied on water, so small the scientists argue from 275 picometers to 310 picometers. That larger 310 would be 0.000310 micrometers or microns for short.
The 275 was the standard set well over 100 years ago, but testing at Cambridge put it ata 282 about a decade ago and the latest MIT testing shows the size actually changes based on temperature- something that is scaring the nano scientists because it may expand more than it vibrates- something that argues with E=MC2 so they all want to quit researching water filtration hoping to find Einstein'smissing link in the size drop. But since people are dying, they continue the filtration issue for now.
Anyways, think of this one- the factory filters are 5 micron, but they are rated “nominal” not absolute. Their absolute ratings are in the 20 range for AC Delco, not sure on others. If the factory filter stopped it all, we couldn’t have watched BigT have his water in injection pump issues a while back, right?
But you can buy 1 micron absolute fiters for your drinking water at home from many companies. If they are absolute at 1 micron, that means no water would ever come out of your filter. Almost every virus is less than 1/10 micron, and they can all be filtered out of water. Taking bacteria and virus out isn’t even a challenge since the 1980’s. Heavy metal particals are the #1 problem in 3rd world countries water supplies. Even here- Lead is 175 pico- Who here is from Illinois? Still drinking bottled water, right?
- Staff
- #86
Well if I'm wrong I'm wrong, but that begs the question of some demos I seen before. They took a filter with an absolute micron filtering range of 7 microns, and it stopped all flow once water covered the element at 0 psi. If they put it under pressure, yes water would flow, but at 0 pressure it just sat there.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Ok. just static can stop it, but i have red shop rags that wont absorb water. I can suspend the rag with string at 4 corners and pour a cup of water on it, and it will hold the water like a small soup bowl. But if I put the rag over the kitchen faucet and turn on the water under pressure, the water goes right through it. So it doesn’t stop the water -filter the water from passage.
So it isnt that the rag or the filter is capable of filtering to the size of water. They are both hydrophobic.
When a filter gets rated, it has to be rated at a certain pressure, then will have both an absolte rating and a nominal rating. Most filter are advertised using their nominal rating because is sounds better to say this airfliter can stop dust, instead of it stops some dust and all rocks. Personally I think it is marketing bs that somehow makes it through legally because it is industry standard and buyer beware that you need to know the professional terminology and standards.
There really isn’t any fuel filter that pulls out 100% water. The pressure required to do so is rediculously high. How it is done in refining is the oil (with contaminations like water) is heated to 195f. That is the peak point of water seperating from oil. Then most water is drained of by eye sight of one floating on the other. Once most the water is drained, Then it gets run through a huge cylonic seperating centrifuge to separate the portions that are getting drained together, leaving just the oils to be processed.
Once the fuel is made and they add emulsifiers like ethonal/ methonal- until you heat above the stable point of the emulsifiers you can not get the water out of suspension without high force. The alcohol is stuck to the oil, and the water is stuck to the alcohol. So it takes a hydrophobic seperating screen and high pressure blasting it to remove the loosely attatched water. But depending how much alcohol is in it, there could still be quite a lot. E85 “gas” having 85% ethonal could under lab conditions hold almost exactly it’s own weight in water. So 15% gasoline and 85% corn juice can become
43% ethonal
42% water
15% gasoline
I’ll take the corn on the cob, next to my taters- thank you.
So the best way to selerate water from oil (or fuels) is still a centrifuge with product at 195f. Now heating ethonal enriched diesel fuel to 195f becomes a questionable desire. So is just running it through a centrifuge because to do it affordable means a pressure drive fuge, like the oil bypass filter Leroy sells. Will it seperate all the water? No. But if driven with the liquid at 90 or above psi, it generates enough force to seperate to .1 micron, and centrifuges are only rated in absolute- but only so long as it is operating at proper pressure and speed. Liability of a fire is why you dont see them advertised as fuel filtration like they are oils. Which for diesel alone —if there were no alcohol— is perfect safe. Your injection pump crushed the 90 psi range in a millisecond. But the product expanding out the jet into a chamber of air that could contain oxygen it the danger. In refining simply an inert gas coverage solves that. Some just pull into a vacuum before starting.
Getting most of the water out is really easy. It’s the percentage that mixes with alcohols that gets hard. For decades it was just measure for electrical resistance and drain off the majority. Then add alcohol (aka rubbing alcohol or diesel 911) and it will absorb the rest of the water into the fuel and burn it off. Although the wear and tear isn’t talked about on the shiny bottle with bright colors. People in high humid areas add it “just in case” unknowingly are trapping more water into their fuel and causing more frictional wear than if they left it alone
So it isnt that the rag or the filter is capable of filtering to the size of water. They are both hydrophobic.
When a filter gets rated, it has to be rated at a certain pressure, then will have both an absolte rating and a nominal rating. Most filter are advertised using their nominal rating because is sounds better to say this airfliter can stop dust, instead of it stops some dust and all rocks. Personally I think it is marketing bs that somehow makes it through legally because it is industry standard and buyer beware that you need to know the professional terminology and standards.
There really isn’t any fuel filter that pulls out 100% water. The pressure required to do so is rediculously high. How it is done in refining is the oil (with contaminations like water) is heated to 195f. That is the peak point of water seperating from oil. Then most water is drained of by eye sight of one floating on the other. Once most the water is drained, Then it gets run through a huge cylonic seperating centrifuge to separate the portions that are getting drained together, leaving just the oils to be processed.
Once the fuel is made and they add emulsifiers like ethonal/ methonal- until you heat above the stable point of the emulsifiers you can not get the water out of suspension without high force. The alcohol is stuck to the oil, and the water is stuck to the alcohol. So it takes a hydrophobic seperating screen and high pressure blasting it to remove the loosely attatched water. But depending how much alcohol is in it, there could still be quite a lot. E85 “gas” having 85% ethonal could under lab conditions hold almost exactly it’s own weight in water. So 15% gasoline and 85% corn juice can become
43% ethonal
42% water
15% gasoline
I’ll take the corn on the cob, next to my taters- thank you.
So the best way to selerate water from oil (or fuels) is still a centrifuge with product at 195f. Now heating ethonal enriched diesel fuel to 195f becomes a questionable desire. So is just running it through a centrifuge because to do it affordable means a pressure drive fuge, like the oil bypass filter Leroy sells. Will it seperate all the water? No. But if driven with the liquid at 90 or above psi, it generates enough force to seperate to .1 micron, and centrifuges are only rated in absolute- but only so long as it is operating at proper pressure and speed. Liability of a fire is why you dont see them advertised as fuel filtration like they are oils. Which for diesel alone —if there were no alcohol— is perfect safe. Your injection pump crushed the 90 psi range in a millisecond. But the product expanding out the jet into a chamber of air that could contain oxygen it the danger. In refining simply an inert gas coverage solves that. Some just pull into a vacuum before starting.
Getting most of the water out is really easy. It’s the percentage that mixes with alcohols that gets hard. For decades it was just measure for electrical resistance and drain off the majority. Then add alcohol (aka rubbing alcohol or diesel 911) and it will absorb the rest of the water into the fuel and burn it off. Although the wear and tear isn’t talked about on the shiny bottle with bright colors. People in high humid areas add it “just in case” unknowingly are trapping more water into their fuel and causing more frictional wear than if they left it alone
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Another way to think of it is this. H2O molecule size And How many does it need to chain together to make the final product? 1. Granted it is a pico droplet, but it is water.
How big is the hydrocarbon molecule. AND how many to make diesel fuel. C 7-11 is gas, up to 15 kerosene, up to 22 or now even 24 for diesel. So yes hydrogen molecules are tiny, so are carbon. But it takes both so C7H16 is the smallest a single piece of gasoline can be. Compared to only 2 hydrogen and one oxygen... fuel is crazy bigger than water. Just look at the hydrogen count alone: 2 vs 16. Even if oxygen took up zero space, the fuel is already 8 times larger. Then there is still carbon. And the area surrounding that chain has a buffer scientists can’t explain yet that makes it even larger. Bible says He holds all things together- so God glue- and no disrespect intended there. But even that is way bigger since the chain is bigger.
So you really need a filter to take the dirt and junk out of fuel, and a fuel water seperator is taking the fuel out of the water, allowing the water to pass and trapping the fuel if it is a true filter media. Way hard- thats why most just seperate the majority and let the rest go.
It would seriously keep me up at night if I lived where high humidity and blended fuel was the only options.
Thats why the more powerful mega fuel pressure diesels have such catastrophic failures in injectors where lowly 2,500 and under psi systems survive it better. Would you rather I used a 2,900 psi pressure washer to clean your paint job, or 29,000 psi- haha - crude examples but essentially how injector tips get damage by tiny amounts of water.
I haven’t chased what are the best water seperating units in years, just glad I live in the desert with today having a massive 9% humidity for fuel to soak up.
So back to spdgofast thing on filter- get a good water seperating unit on there. That should really be something I would think companies fight over who has the best, and all the trucks out there in humid areas should have one.
How big is the hydrocarbon molecule. AND how many to make diesel fuel. C 7-11 is gas, up to 15 kerosene, up to 22 or now even 24 for diesel. So yes hydrogen molecules are tiny, so are carbon. But it takes both so C7H16 is the smallest a single piece of gasoline can be. Compared to only 2 hydrogen and one oxygen... fuel is crazy bigger than water. Just look at the hydrogen count alone: 2 vs 16. Even if oxygen took up zero space, the fuel is already 8 times larger. Then there is still carbon. And the area surrounding that chain has a buffer scientists can’t explain yet that makes it even larger. Bible says He holds all things together- so God glue- and no disrespect intended there. But even that is way bigger since the chain is bigger.
So you really need a filter to take the dirt and junk out of fuel, and a fuel water seperator is taking the fuel out of the water, allowing the water to pass and trapping the fuel if it is a true filter media. Way hard- thats why most just seperate the majority and let the rest go.
It would seriously keep me up at night if I lived where high humidity and blended fuel was the only options.
Thats why the more powerful mega fuel pressure diesels have such catastrophic failures in injectors where lowly 2,500 and under psi systems survive it better. Would you rather I used a 2,900 psi pressure washer to clean your paint job, or 29,000 psi- haha - crude examples but essentially how injector tips get damage by tiny amounts of water.
I haven’t chased what are the best water seperating units in years, just glad I live in the desert with today having a massive 9% humidity for fuel to soak up.
So back to spdgofast thing on filter- get a good water seperating unit on there. That should really be something I would think companies fight over who has the best, and all the trucks out there in humid areas should have one.
Ok guys thanks for the replies on the fuel filters, keep em coming. Like I said earlier I am taking this time to get my IP pump modified or purchase a new one while repairing a valve cover leak. Also I am trying to upgrade my entire fuel system with a pressure regulator with a tank return line possibly, along with oil filtration and hopefully a pre oiler pump system. Below is a link to my P400 build over on the Diesel Place with alot more info and photos than on this site. As of this point I will be attempting to posting the rest of my build here.
https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/6...e-modifications/552722-p400-burb-install.html
https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/6...e-modifications/552722-p400-burb-install.html
smokymtn65
Well-Known Member
My final on SID is 2 micron using a old dual set up. wix 33815
n8in8or
I never met a project I didn’t like
Nice. I too am going to go to a return-style external regulator. It should take some load off of my current lift pump and hopefully help it keep up with my IP. I also like the idea of the pump not continually recirculating the fuel internally and adding heat to it. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I will be starting a thread on at least the fuel tank portions of mine in the next few weeks since I decided to do the tank upgrade while it's out for my rust repair project.
Hey guys, I'm trying to post up in here and on TDP so if my post's seem out of context this is the reason why. I am presently trying to figure out which direction to go in my quest for more fuel from the IP.
Well I've been giving it some thought and I'm thinking of just ordering a Omega Moose and then taking the Turbonators advice and get my so called DB2835-PE340 pump flow tested and evaluated as in disassembled to see what's really inside. It may not be the cheap route but I would at least know what I have and then end up with maybe a couple of good pumps to choose from. And I would be more than willing to disclose my findings here for all to see. I spoke with Mel at Conestoga and he would be willing to see what he could do with my existing pump. Who knows, maybe dyno info with both pumps at some point would be .
Well I've been giving it some thought and I'm thinking of just ordering a Omega Moose and then taking the Turbonators advice and get my so called DB2835-PE340 pump flow tested and evaluated as in disassembled to see what's really inside. It may not be the cheap route but I would at least know what I have and then end up with maybe a couple of good pumps to choose from. And I would be more than willing to disclose my findings here for all to see. I spoke with Mel at Conestoga and he would be willing to see what he could do with my existing pump. Who knows, maybe dyno info with both pumps at some point would be .
Well folks, I finally got my pump back from Conestoga Diesel so it's time for me to get back to posting my progress on the Burb. So the pump I sent them I found out started as a DB233-4974 250 HP Marine pump that Peninsular had modified with the plungers machined to .350 by Diesel Injection Service in Grand Rapids MI. and they tagged it as a DB2835-PE340 . Well, I sent it to Conestoga in an attempt to get more fuel and Mel built what he calls his Omega Moose pump using my existing head and rotor with the .350 plungers. So we'll see how it runs soon I hope if time permits. I know we have another thread about fuel systems which I just posted some photos in but since this is my build thread I will post them here as well.
Well I know how everyone loves diesel porn so here are some photo's of one of the fuel system's I've been working on. As stated earlier in this thread there is no DATA to show that there is any advantage to using this system. This system also requires dropping the fuel tank and adding a 1/2 inch pickup tube so I'm not sure if and when I will actually be putting this setup in service
Attachments
So the previous photo's are for what I will call the "ADVANCED BOOST REFERENCED, DEDICATED RETURN, ADJUSTABLE FPR SYSTEM". Which I will not be using initially due to the fact that it requires a lift pump capable of 30 psi and the the addition of a dedicated return line which requires dropping the fuel tank. So here are some photo's of my "BASIC FUEL SYSTEM" which I will use with my existing Walbro FRB 10 lift pump which put out 14 PSI measured just before the original fuel filter housing previously. The new fuel filter assembly measures the fuel pressure of the fuel exiting the fuel filter.
Attachments
What kind of cc numbers is this pump said to be putting out?
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
A direct return line to the fuel tank could be plumbed into the fuel filler neck such as the set up Air Dog markets. Save you from a tank drop anyway. Air Dog uses an adapter that requires the rubber fuel neck to be shortened by 1" but, you're talented and a means to make the system work another way could be sorted out.
BAD IDEA!!! The return has to be submerged in fuel or the fuel system will siphon the fuel back to the tank resulting in hard cold starts after a long overnight sit. The fuel system will be full of air every morning and need to be re-primed. This is why GM spent a nickel on the submerged in tank fuel return hose.
@Will L. Another angle on getting water out of diesel is a filter that's not DOT road legal. It adsorbs water and will block flow if it sees enough water. Saving your fuel system is not the DOT concern: it's that the engine and FI system are expendable to keep the vehicle under power at operator discretion of when it's safe to stop. Problem is lack of warning before water takes the FI out to the failure point anyway. Even then firing on less than all cylinders, because water induced FI failure burned holes in a couple pistons, is still under power for PB PS etc.
The above vague summery or warning done: here is the other option maybe as a bypass or transfer tank filter... Aqua-Zorb
The above vague summery or warning done: here is the other option maybe as a bypass or transfer tank filter... Aqua-Zorb
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
Nope, you've got an apples and oranges thing here. Pushing fuel back to the tank from the LP vs the designed fuel return system post IP. I'm late to the thread, but he did say 'from the LP.'