great white
Well-Known Member
That should be "Krown" rust control, not "crown"...
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P400 coming to Alaska to replace a failed Diesel Depot engine
- Thread starter ak diesel driver
- Start date
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Got this email from Chance who has also been pricing thru WW Williams
4 weeks, bummer..
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Johnson John R." <[email protected]>
Date: Dec 15, 2011 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: P400 Long block
To:Chance>
I put an inquiry in to GEP on the oil pan modification. The P400 is built at the time of the order. Usually takes three to four weeks. The holidays will extend the build time. I will work on your request first thing tomorrow. I will keep you posted. Have a good night.
________________________________________
From: Chance
To: Johnson John R.;
Sent: Fri Dec 16 01:58:16 2011
Subject: RE: P400 Long block
Thanks John for the reply, destination Lakewood, Wa. Was hoping you could include the order with the modified GEP oil pan conversion for the 4x4? Is that available?
Interested in the oil pan results and availability ship date?
Respectfully,
_Chance On Dec 15, 2011 6:23 PM, "Johnson John R." <[email protected]> wrote:
Hey Chance,
Ron said you were looking for pricing on a P400. The price for a New GEP P400 Factory Long Block is $6,592.50. This price does not include freight to your location. If you would like the cost for freight let me know and I will put together a formal quote that includes freight. Are there any other items you would like to purchase in addition to the long block. I would be glad to include them on the quote for you.
Thanks,
John Johnson
Business Development Rep.
W.W.Williams
Consider It Done
702.533.9589 Cell
702.399.2977 Fax
800.839.1483 Toll Free
Http://www.wwwilliams.com
_____________________________________________
From: Taylor Ronald B.
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:42 PM
To:Johnson John R.
Subject: P400 Long block
John,
Please send Chance at quick quote on a P400 long block, his 98 Suburban (side mount turbo) had the 6.5L expire.
His phone isand is always on. He is in Anchorage Alaska.
Thanks!
Ron Taylor
Defense Business Development
W.W.Williams
Consider It Done
313.215.2971 Cell
614.716.0298 Fax
Http://www.wwwilliams.com
4 weeks, bummer..
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Johnson John R." <[email protected]>
Date: Dec 15, 2011 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: P400 Long block
To:Chance>
I put an inquiry in to GEP on the oil pan modification. The P400 is built at the time of the order. Usually takes three to four weeks. The holidays will extend the build time. I will work on your request first thing tomorrow. I will keep you posted. Have a good night.
________________________________________
From: Chance
To: Johnson John R.;
Sent: Fri Dec 16 01:58:16 2011
Subject: RE: P400 Long block
Thanks John for the reply, destination Lakewood, Wa. Was hoping you could include the order with the modified GEP oil pan conversion for the 4x4? Is that available?
Interested in the oil pan results and availability ship date?
Respectfully,
_Chance On Dec 15, 2011 6:23 PM, "Johnson John R." <[email protected]> wrote:
Hey Chance,
Ron said you were looking for pricing on a P400. The price for a New GEP P400 Factory Long Block is $6,592.50. This price does not include freight to your location. If you would like the cost for freight let me know and I will put together a formal quote that includes freight. Are there any other items you would like to purchase in addition to the long block. I would be glad to include them on the quote for you.
Thanks,
John Johnson
Business Development Rep.
W.W.Williams
Consider It Done
702.533.9589 Cell
702.399.2977 Fax
800.839.1483 Toll Free
Http://www.wwwilliams.com
_____________________________________________
From: Taylor Ronald B.
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:42 PM
To:Johnson John R.
Subject: P400 Long block
John,
Please send Chance at quick quote on a P400 long block, his 98 Suburban (side mount turbo) had the 6.5L expire.
His phone isand is always on. He is in Anchorage Alaska.
Thanks!
Ron Taylor
Defense Business Development
W.W.Williams
Consider It Done
313.215.2971 Cell
614.716.0298 Fax
Http://www.wwwilliams.com
turbonator
Member
This is an exciting development, not the failed engine, but another P400 instal. Going to have to invest in some corn futures....LOL.
opcorn:opcorn:
.......and at that price, should have enough to buy those futures. Seems like a real good price to us.
opcorn:opcorn:.......and at that price, should have enough to buy those futures. Seems like a real good price to us.
Brooklyn Tow
9 11 Never Forget
Is the P400 the Marine Version?.....Can someone explain the differences between AMG, GEP, Optimizer and P400.
turbonator
Member
From what we understand, Navistar cast the blocks, AMG was the owner of the rights and did the machining. This is the Optimizer..... the P400 is an Optimizer with a full main section cast for the base of the motor which replaces the main bearing caps. This botton section adds about 4 inches of depth to the block, thus the need for a custom oilpan to use it in a truck. Not sure, but the P400 may have been a development of Peninsular Diesel for a marine application.
When we see P400, we think girdle.....the Peninsular model was 400hp at the crank, using DB style injection pump.
When we see P400, we think girdle.....the Peninsular model was 400hp at the crank, using DB style injection pump.
great white
Well-Known Member
GEP (General Engine products) is the subsidiary of AMG (AM General) that builds the engines. Wholey owned by AMG, so GEP could also be looked at as a division.
The original 6.5 was designed and cast by GM (Duh).
GM eventually dropped the 6.5 line (a la Duramax), but AM General was still using them in the Humvee vehicles. So, AMG bought the rights to the 6.5 design when the GM collaboration ended (and GM eventually dropped the H2 line).
AMG realized the 6.5 had inherent design weakness and a "somewhat less than sterling" reputation for durability and service. This lead to a redesign of the GM sourced 6.5 and the Optimizer 6500 was born. International was sourced to cast the blocks. Design enhancements were engineered (added material is some areas, block and head metallurgy altered, etc). There were other changes in the build process such as shot peening and GEP now assembled every engine from bare block up "in house".
The Optimizer 6500 is what you get if you go to your GM dealer and order a replacement 6.5 (parts contract agreement between GM and AMG).
The P400 casting is a result of an extensive redesign of the Optimizer 6500. "SCCS" started showing up in conjunction with the P400 moniker. P400 actually refers to the casting number of the new block, not the entire engine. However, the block is so radically different than those before it that those "in the know" call it a P400.
Biggest identifying feature of the P400 (other than the casting numbers, duh) is the lower portion of the block is what could be referred to as a "girdle" and it's Humvee only oil pan. In truth, the lower half of the block is removable and it incorporates the main caps. This is in an effort to stabilize the lower half of the block and eliminate main bearing cap "walk". It is also a (probably very effective) attempt at eliminating main web cracking. The P400 also includes a forged steel crank. As mentioned, the P400 block also carries an "SCCS" moniker although it seems no-one really knows what that stands for (could be just an internal designation like GMT400, SN95, etc). The SCCS is a center mount turbo (all Humvee's are center mount) intercooled package (there's also a Caterpillar fuel management system and a few other bits and bobs) which claims the highest HP and torque ratings yet for a "6.5 design".
All this P400 "goodness" is in response to up armored Humvee's where the design was proven to need more power due to the weight (so was the 6500, but didn't make the grade), although it's unclear if any P400's have actually made it into the Humvee. Seems like that's a bit of a dead end with the Humvee scheduled for replacement by the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle project. AMG had/has fileded a proposal for the project, but last I checked weren't making out very well in that arena. It was a collaboration with another company, but it escapes me which one it was. It was unclear if it would use any of the 6500 designs anyways. AMG also has/had intentions of marketing the design in other applications, but that seems to have died off from "official and unofficial" sources lately.
That's about all I can remember off the top of my head right now.....
1995yukon65
Member
ok then, i think you just changed my mind about building a 6.2/6.5 hybrid for my truck... For what they are asking for the p400 i would be almost there with parts and maching costs of a used block... time to start saving, my poor baby may see a p400 after all
Brooklyn Tow
9 11 Never Forget
So the P400 could go the way of the wind.......If no long term application is found for it.
From what you explain, it seems the Military Humvee might take the "elusive" P400 to the Grave with it......Or the price might skyrocket for lack of production.
From what you explain, it seems the Military Humvee might take the "elusive" P400 to the Grave with it......Or the price might skyrocket for lack of production.
L98TPI
New Member
It would be sad and tough on us running 6.5's if the Humvee took the P400 and the Optimizer for that matter to the grave with it. But I see they (Navistar) are still making the 6.4 despite Ford dropping it. I have seen front engined motor home / Bread truck chassis with it. Sooo may be that will be the way to go in years to come for a re-power for all the things 6.5's are in now, boats, bread trucks, and GM trucks. They must have got its troubles cured. An acquaintance of mine has a Excursion with a 6.0 and he tells me after a couple of re-flashes and egr parts updates (other stuff to no doubt but he is a non techie) its has run fine for him for over 100k miles. Sure would be easier to shoehorn in than a inline six. But I might be long dead before the parts supply for 6.5's gets low and there fore unobtainable and or unaffordable.
great white
Well-Known Member
Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much. At least not in the immediate future.
There are a fair number of Civilian H1/H2's in operation that will need replacement engines.
The military Humvee has several years left in it before the replacement arrives. That means they will still require parts and pieces. Suspensions, bodies, drivetrains. Those takeout engines will keep showing up in auctions for a long time to come. Not to mention, the market will be absolutely FLOODED when the JLTV actually comes on line and the Humvees are initially sold off. Some will probably go to National Guard units, but most will be surplus. Probably won't be a golden age like when the Jeeps were decommissioned for Humvees, but close......
IIRC, funding hasn't even been finalized yet for the replacement and there only three different consortiums awarded "development contracts" for the JLTV replacement so "6500 surplus heaven" is a ways off yet.
Just remembered who AMG was partnered with for a JLTV proposal, it's General Dynamics land systems and the collaboration is called General Tactical vehicles. If I remember the prototype correctly, it looked like it used a lot of previous generation Humvee parts or they were at least designed off Humvee parts. It's possible there is a P400 rattling away under that skin. It would make sense from a logistical standpoint to award the contract to a design based in a previous model. Training bills are reduced as techs and operators are familiar with the design and parts carry overs reduces sourcing new stock ($$$) and storage/transportation logistics. Scabbing parts of destroyed vehicles in the back compound or by the side of the road also becomes a possibility "in a pinch".
The other competitors is BAE systems (british) and Lockheed Martin (states).
Then there's a smaller Marine market for the 6500.
AMG also has either plans or contracts (I'm unclear as to which) to provide 6500's in stationary platforms. IE: gensets, etc.
The biggest market would seem to be the GM truck applications which has the shear weight of numbers produced behind it.
Alas; most are old, at the end of their life and owned by individuals who aren't really willing to drop 7-odd thousand dollars on replacement engines. Enthusiasts seem to prefer to "roll their own" for the most part, so that takes out that potential sales source.
If the optimizer 6500 was in the 3-5 thou range, it may have been a very different story. For both the engine design and the GMT400 platform. But that is something we'll just never know. Most especially as long as the gov't is still buying 6500's from AMG. Gov't contracts keeps the purchase price nice and high....
There's also the consideration that AMG/GEP has a lot of money into the design now. It only makes sense that they find other applications for the engine as long as they can still make money off it.
If I had to guess, I'd say the current GEP engine designs of the 6.5 have at least another ten years as a mainstream product before they start dropping off the radar.......just my guess though.
There are a fair number of Civilian H1/H2's in operation that will need replacement engines.
The military Humvee has several years left in it before the replacement arrives. That means they will still require parts and pieces. Suspensions, bodies, drivetrains. Those takeout engines will keep showing up in auctions for a long time to come. Not to mention, the market will be absolutely FLOODED when the JLTV actually comes on line and the Humvees are initially sold off. Some will probably go to National Guard units, but most will be surplus. Probably won't be a golden age like when the Jeeps were decommissioned for Humvees, but close......
IIRC, funding hasn't even been finalized yet for the replacement and there only three different consortiums awarded "development contracts" for the JLTV replacement so "6500 surplus heaven" is a ways off yet.
Just remembered who AMG was partnered with for a JLTV proposal, it's General Dynamics land systems and the collaboration is called General Tactical vehicles. If I remember the prototype correctly, it looked like it used a lot of previous generation Humvee parts or they were at least designed off Humvee parts. It's possible there is a P400 rattling away under that skin. It would make sense from a logistical standpoint to award the contract to a design based in a previous model. Training bills are reduced as techs and operators are familiar with the design and parts carry overs reduces sourcing new stock ($$$) and storage/transportation logistics. Scabbing parts of destroyed vehicles in the back compound or by the side of the road also becomes a possibility "in a pinch".
The other competitors is BAE systems (british) and Lockheed Martin (states).
Then there's a smaller Marine market for the 6500.
AMG also has either plans or contracts (I'm unclear as to which) to provide 6500's in stationary platforms. IE: gensets, etc.
The biggest market would seem to be the GM truck applications which has the shear weight of numbers produced behind it.
Alas; most are old, at the end of their life and owned by individuals who aren't really willing to drop 7-odd thousand dollars on replacement engines. Enthusiasts seem to prefer to "roll their own" for the most part, so that takes out that potential sales source.
If the optimizer 6500 was in the 3-5 thou range, it may have been a very different story. For both the engine design and the GMT400 platform. But that is something we'll just never know. Most especially as long as the gov't is still buying 6500's from AMG. Gov't contracts keeps the purchase price nice and high....
There's also the consideration that AMG/GEP has a lot of money into the design now. It only makes sense that they find other applications for the engine as long as they can still make money off it.
If I had to guess, I'd say the current GEP engine designs of the 6.5 have at least another ten years as a mainstream product before they start dropping off the radar.......just my guess though.
great white
Well-Known Member
Maybe a forum administrator should split the AMG/GEP/Optimizer/P400 discussion off AK's thread as it's getting kind of "OT"?
great white
Well-Known Member
Here's some info on the GD/AMG JLTV:
If you read "tech specs" you'll see some phrases that show up on AMG's site for the 6500 today.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/us_a..._wheeled_armoured_vehicle_us_army_united.html
Also, if you listen to the video further down the page, there's a fairly familiar rattle when the vehicle drives by...
AMG announcements:
http://www.amgeneral.com/corporate/news/jltv-team-awarded-technology-contract
GTV website:
http://www.generaltacticalvehicles.com/home.html
Details are pretty scarce, for obvious reasons (still in completion for contracts)
From an investments site:
GTV's JLTV
GTV’s design
(click to view full)
General Tactical Vehicles JV. AM General are the builders of the current Hummer fleet. General Dynamics Land Systems builds M1 Abrams tanks, and was a partner with Force Protection to deliver Cougar MRAPs via the Force Dynamics joint venture. The firm also has very strong systems integration capabilities, and is involved in key radio and electronics programs that will equip America’s future soldiers. GTV is their JLTV joint venture. Force Dynamics did not include Force Protection’s Cheetah platform, however, forcing General Dynamics to look elsewhere.
In 2006, both AM General and General Dynamics were awarded JLTV “Best Technical Approach” trade studies by the Office of Naval Research. Their joint design stresses design maturity and proven components, and includes a “unique modular and scalable trailer that has mobility equal to the JLTV vehicle itself.” GDLS and AM General reportedly invested over $10 million for risk reduction development and maturation of this vehicle and its In-Hub Hybrid Electric Drive system. Their AGMV uses a hexagon shaped armored capsule for its uses in mine protection, side blast deflection, and small-arms protection. GTV site | Defense Update Nov 2007 article.
If you read "tech specs" you'll see some phrases that show up on AMG's site for the 6500 today.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/us_a..._wheeled_armoured_vehicle_us_army_united.html
Also, if you listen to the video further down the page, there's a fairly familiar rattle when the vehicle drives by...
AMG announcements:
http://www.amgeneral.com/corporate/news/jltv-team-awarded-technology-contract
GTV website:
http://www.generaltacticalvehicles.com/home.html
Details are pretty scarce, for obvious reasons (still in completion for contracts)
From an investments site:
GTV's JLTV
GTV’s design
(click to view full)
General Tactical Vehicles JV. AM General are the builders of the current Hummer fleet. General Dynamics Land Systems builds M1 Abrams tanks, and was a partner with Force Protection to deliver Cougar MRAPs via the Force Dynamics joint venture. The firm also has very strong systems integration capabilities, and is involved in key radio and electronics programs that will equip America’s future soldiers. GTV is their JLTV joint venture. Force Dynamics did not include Force Protection’s Cheetah platform, however, forcing General Dynamics to look elsewhere.
In 2006, both AM General and General Dynamics were awarded JLTV “Best Technical Approach” trade studies by the Office of Naval Research. Their joint design stresses design maturity and proven components, and includes a “unique modular and scalable trailer that has mobility equal to the JLTV vehicle itself.” GDLS and AM General reportedly invested over $10 million for risk reduction development and maturation of this vehicle and its In-Hub Hybrid Electric Drive system. Their AGMV uses a hexagon shaped armored capsule for its uses in mine protection, side blast deflection, and small-arms protection. GTV site | Defense Update Nov 2007 article.
Brooklyn Tow
9 11 Never Forget
Centre mount turbo eh ?
Guys, in Australia Holden did a deal with Chevy for 1998-2001 and had a bastardised version of the suburban built in RHD.
It was built in a special part of the plant in Selinas in Mexico.
Apparently we have Yukon/Tahoe Dash (as there were no RHD versions of the suburban dash) and we have a centre mount turbo mated with the 4L80E.
I have been informed on one of the other boards that it looks like we have the Van/Humvee motor setup with the valley mounted turbo.
Would therefore a P400 with the modified oil pan drop straight in for our application ?
What else is required in terms of fueling the beast - surely the stock DS4 is not going to be up to the challenge ?
Is the stock cooling system (we have the twin thermos and hi volume water pump) going to keep a P400 cool ?
Would it require a reflash of the ECM ?
Craig
Guys, in Australia Holden did a deal with Chevy for 1998-2001 and had a bastardised version of the suburban built in RHD.
It was built in a special part of the plant in Selinas in Mexico.
Apparently we have Yukon/Tahoe Dash (as there were no RHD versions of the suburban dash) and we have a centre mount turbo mated with the 4L80E.
I have been informed on one of the other boards that it looks like we have the Van/Humvee motor setup with the valley mounted turbo.
Would therefore a P400 with the modified oil pan drop straight in for our application ?
What else is required in terms of fueling the beast - surely the stock DS4 is not going to be up to the challenge ?
Is the stock cooling system (we have the twin thermos and hi volume water pump) going to keep a P400 cool ?
Would it require a reflash of the ECM ?
Craig
great white
Well-Known Member
Cheers
great white
Well-Known Member
Found some pics of a 98 Holden Suburban. It's a gmt 400 Chassis for sure:
Found some pics of a 98 Holden 6.5 TD Suburban. It's a GMT 400 chassis for sure:
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
Found some pics of a 98 Holden 6.5 TD Suburban. It's a GMT 400 chassis for sure:
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
great white
Well-Known Member
Her ya go, RH drive s-10 Blazer dash stretched to fit:
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C45556D9EABDA1DECA256A48001AA735
Very interesting stuff....
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C45556D9EABDA1DECA256A48001AA735
Very interesting stuff....
turbonator
Member
Found some pics of a 98 Holden Suburban. It's a gmt 400 Chassis for sure:
Found some pics of a 98 Holden 6.5 TD Suburban. It's a GMT 400 chassis for sure:
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
The dash is interesting:
I'll be darned if that doesn't look like a bunch of newer S-10 dash bits put together.
It also has a center mount turbo:
There it is, proof it can be done in s GMT 400 chassis.
Might be an issue with a North American model. The exhaust down pipe is right where the AC components are on a LH drive vehicle....
i want to see one of these holden trucks without the motor, to see what mods are done to the fire wall to make it fit.... we have had a center mount system, and just placing everything loose on the motor in a gmt-400 it was missing 2-3" for the uppipes, not including the exhaust housing on the turbo.... it is a pretty involved sheet metal/fabricating job to make it work, not for the faint of heart...LOL
Look how far the defrost ducts look to be on the interior pics. I wonder it making room for turbo is why?
great white
Well-Known Member
Only pic I can find of the Holden's firewall:
Good luck finding another. Apparently, there were only about 400-500 Holden 6.5 Suburbans made over the entirety of the GMT400 model years. I know a guy on a couple other forums that goes by the screen name Hquick (howard). He's an Aussie and has a Holden suburban, albeit a gasser. He might be able to get better pics of a Holden Suburban firewall.
If you've reworking things like the heater box for RH drive, a bit of firewall massaging isn't that big of a deal. I could do it in a couple hours in the garage with the MIG and some shears. It's no where near as hard as people make it out to be. The big question is how far you have to get into the HVAC component's space. Then again, they may have cast a special lower manifold to move the whole thing forward. Who knows what you'll see when you're dealing with non North American vehicles....
Leroy; I'm willing to bet the ducts are where they are because they used an s-10 blazer dash instead of a GMT 400. That's where they are on an s-10 IIRC....
Good luck finding another. Apparently, there were only about 400-500 Holden 6.5 Suburbans made over the entirety of the GMT400 model years. I know a guy on a couple other forums that goes by the screen name Hquick (howard). He's an Aussie and has a Holden suburban, albeit a gasser. He might be able to get better pics of a Holden Suburban firewall.
If you've reworking things like the heater box for RH drive, a bit of firewall massaging isn't that big of a deal. I could do it in a couple hours in the garage with the MIG and some shears. It's no where near as hard as people make it out to be. The big question is how far you have to get into the HVAC component's space. Then again, they may have cast a special lower manifold to move the whole thing forward. Who knows what you'll see when you're dealing with non North American vehicles....
Leroy; I'm willing to bet the ducts are where they are because they used an s-10 blazer dash instead of a GMT 400. That's where they are on an s-10 IIRC....