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Never overheat again?

dangerousdave said:
See the attached links. I included them in the post 7-28-2009 11:26PM.

I just now did my own unscientific test; I stuck a peice of rolled up paper towel into the Evans coolant in my 6.5's reservior. I immediately proceeded to the kitchen stove to put it into direct propane gas flame, on 'high'. It did not burst into flame, in fact I held it in the flame until the heat evaporated enough at the tip on the paper to light it on fire, then removed it fron the flame. The Evans appeared to extinguish the flame, and the burnt tip of the paper did not smolder.

Of course, everything will burn if heated enough.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a decent test. If it survives that, I wouldn't worry about it.

-Rob :)
 
turbovanman said:
Not really, it simply push's out the old with new and why would you spend $3-5000 on a flushing machine?
Click to expand...

I wasn't thinking to run out and buy one new! I thought that if there is a shop that has one, it MIGHT be a simple way to replace the old coolant with the Evans.

I thought that you could run it twice - one with distilled water to pull out all the Ethelene Glycol, and then when it's just water, do it again, but this time with Evans. Thus, you would pull out the Ethelene Glycol, replace with water, then pull out the water, and replace with Evans. Any remaining water could be 'boiled off'.

My understanding is that this is essentially what Evans wants you do to - flush with water, then displace the water with their coolant. They state repeatedly that you should only have about 1% water left after installing the Evans Coolant. The water can supposedly be boiled out by letting the Evans get to boiling temp of water, aka 220 or over.

What do you guys think?

-Rob :)
 
I think your bringing your engine into cracking territory purposefully to boil out existing water.

What a bitch it would be to end up cracking your block by overheating it, while trying to install a coolant that prevents overheating.
 
Matt Bachand said:
I think your bringing your engine into cracking territory purposefully to boil out existing water.

What a bitch it would be to end up cracking your block by overheating it, while trying to install a coolant that prevents overheating.
Click to expand...

You don't run it with water, you run it with Evan's and leave the cap off, the water will boil off.
 
turbovanman said:
You don't run it with water, you run it with Evan's and leave the cap off, the water will boil off.
Click to expand...

What cracks these weak blocks?

The heat of 220+ degrees, or the traditional antifreezes unability to transfer heat at these temperatures? Do you know for sure?

Towing hard at 220 would be considereed dangerous for most of us.

I would think a good cooling system would to NOT reach these high temperatures, Not to all of a sudden consider them safe???
 
Your not going to crack the block doing this. By leaving the cap off or loose the water will vaporize and the Evans will takes its place. The big thing with Evans is it will stay in contact with the metal at all times because it does not vaporize (boil) till 370* at atmospheric pressure. By the coolant always being in contact the parts of the block that were prone to crack are now being cooled better. You can use a machine to flush it if you have one available. But doing it by hand is not a big deal, just time consuming.

Greg
 
LanduytG said:
I don't have a 6.5 anymore so pictures are out. Not a big deal to replace. All you need to do is flush the engine, rad and heater core with lots of fresh water. Blow out any excess. Fill with Evans and block the rad with cardboard or what ever. Leave the rad cap off or on the first notch. Drive it so it can get to 220-230*. This will boil out any water that was left in the system. Top off and put the cap on and your done.

Greg
Click to expand...

Hi Greg,

How do you go about 'blowing out' the excess water in your description above?

Thanks,

Rob :)
 
Matt Bachand said:
What cracks these weak blocks?

The heat of 220+ degrees, or the traditional antifreezes unability to transfer heat at these temperatures? Do you know for sure?

Towing hard at 220 would be considereed dangerous for most of us.

I would think a good cooling system would to NOT reach these high temperatures, Not to all of a sudden consider them safe???
Click to expand...

What cracks them is a poor system with poor heat transfer and late engaging clutch fans.

As said, Evan's boils at 370deg vs water at 212 and coolant higher and with a pressure cap, even higher. See Greg's further explanation.
 
TurboTahoe said:
Hi Greg,

How do you go about 'blowing out' the excess water in your description above?

Thanks,

Rob :)
Click to expand...

Do the heater core, rad and engine all separately. Use low pressure air on both the rad and heater core to blow out any excess water. You can use high pressure air on the motor.

Greg
 
turbovanman said:
What cracks them is a poor system with poor heat transfer and late engaging clutch fans.

As said, Evan's boils at 370deg vs water at 212 and coolant higher and with a pressure cap, even higher. See Greg's further explanation.
Click to expand...

As Evans says its safe to run these engines up to 280 as long as you have their coolant in there??? Evans or not, I would not do that. Just because its not bursting and puking everywhere does not mean that its safe operating temperature for the already questionably weak block.
 
Matt Bachand said:
As Evans says its safe to run these engines up to 280 as long as you have their coolant in there??? Evans or not, I would not do that. Just because its not bursting and puking everywhere does not mean that its safe operating temperature for the already questionably weak block.
Click to expand...

Evan's has never said anything about running it at 280* in anything I've gotten from them. It will run 240* all day without issue.

Greg
 
Matt Bachand said:
As Evans says its safe to run these engines up to 280 as long as you have their coolant in there??? Evans or not, I would not do that. Just because its not bursting and puking everywhere does not mean that its safe operating temperature for the already questionably weak block.
Click to expand...

In this case, I think you're right and not right at the same time. The temperature at which metal actually will melt is quite a bit higher than 280. What causes the cracking and breakage is the thermal gradients/differences brought on by insufficient/uneven cooling. Theoretically, you could run the 6.5 at a very high temp (hundreds of degrees) so long as the heat was being evenly distributed and removed.

Typical water-based coolant runs into problems because the coolant reaches the temp at which it changes state from liquid to gas at a temperature very easily reached with the engine - 212. By using ethylene glycol and pressurizing the system, we raise the boiling point, and allow the coolant to stay in a liquid state at a higher temp. If the boiling point were moved to a much higher level with a liquid which boils at 370 degrees, then you could run the engine at a higher temp without damage. I think that's what Greg is saying.

The problem is - there is no way to know whether engine damage is occurring at these temperatures. We have been trained that if the engine coolant temp is reaching around 210 (close to the boiling point of water) then we may have a problem. Since we have no empirical evidence that running a 6.5 at 240 (or any other number) with Evans is completely harmless, we are scared when we see the gauge shooting up there. All sorts of questions would come into play... e.g. am I cooking my engine? Is the Evans really working? Do I have any water in there? Are there hot spots causing damage? Unless we see some kind of proof - such as 100 engines were run with Evans at 240 degrees for 50 hours continuous, and after tear down, NONE had damage, then we tend to fret.

-Rob :)
 
I'd say the next most important measurement would be the oil.

There are 4 major heat dissipation routes:

1. Engine coolant. It mainly cools the heads mostly as that is where most of the heat is located especially in an indirect engine.

2. Oil. It lubricates and cools the bottom end. The piston gets really hot and is cooled by the intake air and oil. The top ring sees 600F oil temps. And the oil carries the heat of reciripricating friction away as well as the bearing rotation friction.

3. Air through put of engine. Measured as exhaust gas and intake air. Cool intake air helps cool piston crown.

4. Air cooling the exterior of the engine. No it doesn't take much heat away but allows the engine to shed some heat. It helps mainly at the oil pan and valve covers as they are the thinnest metal. The block is a big ole hunk of iron air won't do much for. But cool circulating air over the oil pan makes an appreciable difference to engine temperature.

Those are what engine application techs measure to determine if the engine is suited for the work load.

How evans may work better is that it won't thermally run away until higher temps. So the radiator / air delta temperature increases it would increase heat dissipation and allow the fan to engage before thermal runaway occurs. The down side would be hotter surrounding air of the engine. And the hotter head and engine block would increase average oil temperature decreasing its delta T with the engine. It may become too hot and loose its lubricating abilities. If the oil were to get too hot the piston would start to guall. And I'll venture that is typically what you see when engines run too hot and fail.

Then too the gaskets may fail if engine gets too hot. I don't know but suspect gasket failures are due to excessive heat in a thermal runaway situation. And I THINK they should be able to withstand an extra 50-100F degrees but I doubt the oil would take the increase depending on how close to limits it is normally.

I can't find maximum oil temps for GM but Deutz, Kubota and Yanmar say 125C or 248F measured at the sump average oil temp is the limit. Kubota says intermittent is ok to 266F but doesn't say for how long is ok. This is for std dino oil 15W-40.
 
schiker said:
I'd say the next most important measurement would be the oil.

There are 4 major heat dissipation routes:

1. Engine coolant. It mainly cools the heads mostly as that is where most of the heat is located especially in an indirect engine.

2. Oil. It lubricates and cools the bottom end. The piston gets really hot and is cooled by the intake air and oil. The top ring sees 600F oil temps. And the oil carries the heat of reciripricating friction away as well as the bearing rotation friction.

3. Air through put of engine. Measured as exhaust gas and intake air. Cool intake air helps cool piston crown.

4. Air cooling the exterior of the engine. No it doesn't take much heat away but allows the engine to shed some heat. It helps mainly at the oil pan and valve covers as they are the thinnest metal. The block is a big ole hunk of iron air won't do much for. But cool circulating air over the oil pan makes an appreciable difference to engine temperature.

Those are what engine application techs measure to determine if the engine is suited for the work load.

How evans may work better is that it won't thermally run away until higher temps. So the radiator / air delta temperature increases it would increase heat dissipation and allow the fan to engage before thermal runaway occurs. The down side would be hotter surrounding air of the engine. And the hotter head and engine block would increase average oil temperature decreasing its delta T with the engine. It may become too hot and loose its lubricating abilities. If the oil were to get too hot the piston would start to guall. And I'll venture that is typically what you see when engines run too hot and fail.

Then too the gaskets may fail if engine gets too hot. I don't know but suspect gasket failures are due to excessive heat in a thermal runaway situation. And I THINK they should be able to withstand an extra 50-100F degrees but I doubt the oil would take the increase depending on how close to limits it is normally.

I can't find maximum oil temps for GM but Deutz, Kubota and Yanmar say 125C or 248F measured at the sump average oil temp is the limit. Kubota says intermittent is ok to 266F but doesn't say for how long is ok. This is for std dino oil 15W-40.
Click to expand...

I had a custom 15qt pan on my 6.5TD with a temp sensor in it. I can tell you that it runs around 175-200* under hiway driving no load. However you get a load on it and it can go to 275* plus in a big hurry. I had and IC and cold ait intake with a moderate tune and stock injectors. I think the IC makes about as big a difference in performance as well as over all temps go. It was a 95 and I had Evan's with in it with the high output water pump and dual 205* stats.

Greg
 
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