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Need help! In a pickle in Nome, Alaska

snarl95 said:
In your bottom picture it looks like the fuel line marked 8 is connected to pump marked 1
Click to expand...
That was just a random pic from the innerwebs to show the optic sensor plug and that dreaded filter.

after the op verifies both the CPS and optic sensor are good. (I'm leaning on the optic sensor being bad) I was going to ask about if he possibly crossed one or more of the IP lines when the IP was installed. it's hard to do but not impossible.

Of course if the optic sensor turns out to be bad, that means the "new" IP is junk and needs to be warrantied out.
 
Having recently fought through this issue with the shaky motor a while back and in the process condemned four injection pumps purchased through Diesel Site/Heath that were rebuilds from two different firms…a bad IP wasn’t the issue. I’m leaning more towards the replacement IP’s repositioning during installation. If it wasn’t close to the original, the ECM and the IP are going to have an argument…like this one. FWIW my issue was valves leading to low compression and never ending shake, rattle and smoke.

Differences between my situation and this 98 are:
1. Smoke. Almost none. OP states minimal smoke where mine wouldn’t stop…ever!
2. Missing Codes. No codes for misfiring cylinders which also rules out crossed injection lines. No codes for the APP and, unless I misread something, no more CPS code(?).
3. Present Codes. Current ones, specifically P1216, all point to the IP’s timing. Unfortunately, letting the engine run in such a condition until 170 degrees is achieved to properly conduct timing reset and then TDCO offsets is not for the feint hearted.

What are the current IP timing value…greater or less than 3.5 degrees?
Above 3.5 and the IP needs to be rotated towards the “drinker’s” side [passenger]. Less than 3.5, rotate toward the driver’s side. The IP should be moved / Rotated ‘anatomical hairs’ distance while the engine is off. You can get these initial moves done without warming up the motor. Just don’t do the ‘Time Set’ function until your at 170 degrees.

I did screen shots from a 1997 manual for IP timing in the hope it will be of assistance. Fingers and crescent wrenches crossed in the meantime.
IMG_0175.jpeg


IMG_0176.jpeg
 
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I’ve had this happen to me before. In my case the plastic softened on the old CPS allowing the mount bracket to dislodge and rotate. I ended up installing it 180 opposite of the way it should go. On new CPS the mounting bracket is press fitted and they can only go in one way. Had the same symptoms and a new CPS cured it, but I had several days of frustration trying to diagnose and correct the problem. Post on it is here somewhere but probably 12 years ago.
 
Okay, we got to talking at dinner last night and a bit more information came out about this situation. My father in law is 80 and his memory is good, but not 100%. That, and I'm not sure that he felt that some of the information I learned last night was all that important, but I think it is.

Here's the timeline as I understand it as of this morning:

1) He arrives in Nome spring of 2023. The truck starts as normal and he drives it for about two weeks before it just quit (wouldn't start after he parked it). He said that it would crank and he would get an occasional kick out of it like it wanted to start, but it never actually fired off. He can't remember if the CEL was on or not.

2) He and his buddies somehow determine that the IP is bad, so they order a rebuilt one from Northwest Diesel and install it with no change to the starting condition. From what I can gather, it was about this time when they pulled codes and discovered that the CPS was "bad", but they didn't address it because they didn't have the puller for the power steering pump.

3) In an effort to get it running, they use starting fluid to try to get it to fire. A local diesel mechanic told them that they probably ruined the pump by using starting fluid, so they ordered and installed another rebuilt pump from Heath Diesel. Installation of the newest pump yielded the exact same results (a few hopeful sounding kicks, but no full firing of the motor).

4) We brought up a puller and installed a new CPS and it fired up right away, with no hesitation, but it obviously runs terribly.

So here is my current thought process:

I could obviously be wrong about this, but it seems really odd that two rebuilt pumps in a row result in two faulty optical sensors. I'm not trying to chase rabbits here, but I'm wondering if the problem lies in a wiring somewhere. I'm thinking maybe the CPS bowed out long before the truck quit. The roads are so horrible around here that he doesn't drive very fast so maybe he never noticed it was in "safe mode"? And then, possibly the OS on the original pump quit OR something happened with the wiring to/from the OS that caused it to be inoperable.

I'm going to have some breakfast and let it warm up outside a bit before I go out and perform the rest of the tests that people asked for, but I wanted to throw the timeline out there as I know it in case maybe it may help with the diagnosis.

Thanks for all of the help so far. You guys are awesome.
 
Ok so prior diag is ... Do NOT let these people touch this engine again! Knowing the CPS is bad, but, they change the IP for lack of a tool?! Then they decide to use engine destruction in a can. You only use ether when the engine is expendable and it's a life or death emergency. Otherwise FIX IT PROPERLY so you don't need to use it. It won't ruin the IP. It can overheat, burn out, glow plugs, shoot a fireball out the intake, bend rods, runaway, blow the heads clean off the engine... I have started these engines with INOP glow plugs on the block heater alone in Colorado Winters.

:facepalm:

Engine mounts are bad although not your major problem at the moment.

If it was me I would get in touch with @ak diesel driver and if he's willing either get him on site or get the pickup over to his place.

X2 on checking that no one crossed the IP lines during the IP install.
 
WarWagon said:
Ok so prior diag is ... Do NOT let these people touch this engine again! Knowing the CPS is bad, but, they change the IP for lack of a tool?! Then they decide to use engine destruction in a can. You only use ether when the engine is expendable and it's a life or death emergency. Otherwise FIX IT PROPERLY so you don't need to use it. It won't ruin the IP. It can overheat, burn out, glow plugs, shoot a fireball out the intake, bend rods, runaway, blow the heads clean off the engine... I have started these engines with INOP glow plugs on the block heater alone in Colorado Winters.

:facepalm:

Engine mounts are bad although not your major problem at the moment.

If it was me I would get in touch with @ak diesel driver and if he's willing either get him on site or get the pickup over to his place.

X2 on checking that no one crossed the IP lines during the IP install.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I completely agree. I'm just trying to do my best with what I've been handed. I was not in a position to come up last summer to help when this first occurred, but I can tell you that I would have done things differently, that's for sure.

The thing is, these guys who worked on the truck prior can fix nearly anything, as long it's mechanical. But throw electronics into the mix and they get confused easily. I have no idea who the "diesel mechanic" was that they consulted with, but I do know that it was over the phone, not on site (not that that changes much, but...).

Anyway, we will keep plugging along and checking each and every one's suggestions. Thanks again for all of the input.
 
Been there with the face in the hands thinking, 'Mom, why....' Of course, I've been there after I've done something only an ID-10-T would do too.
You can check how close / far away the IP timing is from 3.5 with it chugging and jumping and temp below 170 since you're not doing the time set. Just stand outside the truck or the screen might be too blurry to see.
Hang in there.
 
Completely understand the half story and memory lapse thing when helping parents. I am trying to keep people from taking advantage of mine. Latest is that they called an exterminator to get rid of some ants in the kitchen, and next thing I know about is a $3K bill from the exterminator upon completion of a gutter helmet job. o_O:wtf: That money could have gone to one of the neighborhood kids to clean the gutters for the rest of how long my parents will likely stay in that house. SMH


Wish I had better inputs for troubleshooting the truck though. While I have experienced the symptoms in the video and experienced the erratic throttle response, the lack of smoke is new to me.

If able to get rid of the shaking and getting back to normal combustion, there is a simple test to check whether the IP is good by slowly cycling the throttle from idle to 2K rpms. Here is the process:
- Start with a warm engine (over 170*F) and the transmission in park (Neutral with parking brake if a manual).
- No loads on the engine (A/C, radio, lights, etc are all Off).
- From idle, slowly and steadily press the throttle until the engine gets to 2K rpms, hold there for a few seconds, and then slowly and steadily release pressure on the throttle until it is physically back to the idle position. Repeat 10 times (not kidding, 10 times).

A good IP will allow the RPM's to evenly match the throttle input and easily hold RPM's when getting to 2K rpm for all 10 cycles.

Signs of a bad / failing IP are:
- RPMs drop to idle prior to the throttle physically returning to idle.
- Dead spots (read: when the RPM's hold steady for a small portion of physical throttle travel, and then jump / drop).
- RPM's do not (nearly identically) match the same amount of throttle pressure for each of the 10 cycles.
- RPM's want to run-away at any point.
- RPM's will not hold steady when getting to the 2K spot.
- Changes in RPM behavior from once cycle to another (example: most cycles are perfectly smooth, but 4'th cycle has a dead spot, and 7'th cycle returns to idle just a bit early)
 
ak diesel driver said:
By doing what Doug said about unplugging the CPS and OS your basically testing which ever one is still plugged in. It can take ALOT of cranking to get it to start when doing this. When it does start it's in limp mode and should idle and run smoothly.
Click to expand...

Okay, I didn’t realize it took that much cranking, but it tried it again just now it finally fired off on just the OS.

When it first started, it ran just like normal, nice and smooth. However, after 15-20 seconds it started to run rough again, jumping around in the engine bay just as before.

1) OP connected, CPS disconnected. Motor starts, but still runs very rough.

2) OP disconnected, CPS (new) connected. Motor acts like it wants to run, but shuts off immediately when the key is returned to the run position.

3) RPM signal. The Tech 2 scanner powers up with the key in the start position, but powers off when the key is turned to the start position. Battery voltage appears to be fine, but we have the charger on it just in case it’s the voltage drop causing this.
 
Shatmepants said:
Yeah, I completely agree. I'm just trying to do my best with what I've been handed. I was not in a position to come up last summer to help when this first occurred, but I can tell you that I would have done things differently, that's for sure.

The thing is, these guys who worked on the truck prior can fix nearly anything, as long it's mechanical. But throw electronics into the mix and they get confused easily. I have no idea who the "diesel mechanic" was that they consulted with, but I do know that it was over the phone, not on site (not that that changes much, but...).

Anyway, we will keep plugging along and checking each and every one's suggestions. Thanks again for all of the input.
Click to expand...
If they have not changed the CPS, the. I would start there as the part is like $50. You are forgiven for being a parts thrower on a CPS, not so on an Injection Pump.
 
IP is most likely out of time like @Paveltolz mentioned. when you said it ran off the OPs without the CPS smooth and then started to shake rattle and roll as before, I believe the IP is out of time. connect everything back up and use the tech2 to clear the codes. go into the timing setup and look at the actual injection timing. with the engine running you want to see a close as possible to 3.5 degrees. it might be bouncing around a bit, but look for where it stays at the most.

loosen the IP mounting bolts and follow @Paveltolz post for which direction to rotate the IP. remember not to rotate too much. a hairs width of movement is about 2-3 degrees.
 
Okay, I first want to apologize for any conflicting information I may have posted about what works and what doesn't. For example, I was not aware that the engine would have to be cranked for so long to get it to start with either the OS or CPS disconnected. I'm normally really good about keeping the details straight and being accurate with information, but I'm just not familiar with this engine and its controls, so there are a lot of details I'm not aware of.

Anyway, I reported earlier that with the OS connected, CPS disconnected, the motor starts but still runs very rough and with OS disconnected, CPS (new) connected. Motor acts like it wants to run, but shuts off immediately when the key is returned to the run position.

However, I discovered that it WILL start with the OS disconnected and the CPS connected. The gist is that the first time I tried this, it would not start no matter how long it was cranked. But I discovered that if I tip into the throttle about half way, the motor would start and it ran smooth.

With the engine still running OS disconnected/CPS connected, I decided to see what would happen if I plugged in the OS. The engine continued to run smoothly. I let the engine warm up until the thermostat opened, then shut the motor off and did the reset for the CPS.

With the OS and the CPS connected, and the CPS reset, I restarted the motor and it was back to running really rough. With it running, I disconnected the OS and the motor smoothed out some, but not as smooth as it was prior to resetting the CPS and with the OS disconnected/CPS connected.

I shut the motor off and let it sit for a bit, then tried restarting it with the OP disconnected/CPS connected. The motor ran much smoother than before, but slightly rougher than it should.

It seems as though doing the CPS reset made it run slightly rougher than the smoothest point we had it, but MUCH better than it was when we first started.

At this point, I'm kind of thinking that the OS is the culprit. Given what we know, does this seem likely to you guys? If so, does this 100% mean that a new pump is in order, or is it possible to replace the OS itself? I see confliction information on the OS replacement online and don't know what to believe based on my internet search.
 
dbrannon79 said:
IP is most likely out of time like @Paveltolz mentioned. when you said it ran off the OPs without the CPS smooth and then started to shake rattle and roll as before, I believe the IP is out of time. connect everything back up and use the tech2 to clear the codes. go into the timing setup and look at the actual injection timing. with the engine running you want to see a close as possible to 3.5 degrees. it might be bouncing around a bit, but look for where it stays at the most.

loosen the IP mounting bolts and follow @Paveltolz post for which direction to rotate the IP. remember not to rotate too much. a hairs width of movement is about 2-3 degrees.
Click to expand...

Thank you! I forgot to mention that I did set the IP timing correctly, but it doesn't make any difference in the crazy shakiness of the motor.
 
Sounds like a bad IP. disconnecting the Optic sensor when running should immediately kill the engine I would contact the company and see what they can do for you, but let others chime in and verify / discredit my observation.
 
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