Looking for a performance DB2

[Chevypoor]

Well it is official- the IP is toast on T. Took her to Charlottesville as test last night- traffic there was and is awful, must have been out of my mind. After 30 minutes to go 3 miles she shuts off and will not start. So I am waving people by- the hazards do not work apparently either!, on a hill! Asked my wife to run in to the Burger King and grab a bag of ice. After some good Samaritans (2 men)pushed us into a local strip parking mall parking lot I pack the IP in ice- fires up and we go to dinner across the parking lot. Let her sit for about an hour and half- we did some shopping, walking, and eating. Barely starts and then we proceed to get back home- only sit in traffic for 20mins to get out but I am feeding her fuel to keep the rpms up right at a grand to keep her from stalling. Made it home. Not going through that again.

So I am looking at a Moose pump. Any thoughts or experience with that pump? Also, should I look at a Marine pump. Would like 90-100ccs of fuel at WOT. Not looking for a race pump just a solid performance pump that will play well with my mods. I am also trying to keep the costs down, under a grand.

 

[3500_6.5]

The Moose Pump is probably the cheapest you will find that I know of. R&D idi performance also has one for under $100. I don't have experience with the Moose Pump but I would ask them at what rpms is their cc claim at. You won't get the power you are looking for if you get a pump that puts out 90cc at say 2000 rpm vs 3500 rpm. I think the R&D pump is rated at around 105cc at and beyond 3500 rpm.


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[Chevypoor]

Thanks. I am planning to call on Monday and talk to them at Conestoga diesel. I looked at R&D and they do not list a GM DB2 pump online, may be worth a call though to see what they have to offer.

Been driving a bit short distance and it seems to be fine, albeit the hot start issue. I have to hold the throttle down almost to the carpet to get it to start when it is hot/ warm. When I test drove T it was starting hard but I assumed it had other issues since the glows did not light when warm/ hot. On my 95s the glows always light for a bit even when warm. I assumed that was the issue. It has also started smoking when cold and in general the idle is not so good when cold so I know before I head to New Jersey for Turkey Day I will need to get a pump.

 

[Chevypoor]

Update: spoke the guys over at Conestoga yesterday for a bit and I ordered the Bull Moose. Does not sound like the fuel rate drops off with rpms. Also, sounds like I may be the first 6.5er to order the Bull Moose. It is not advertised on there website in the Gm section. Here is the description from the Ford section:

The BULL Moose Pump. Our original is still our most praised. This high flow 100cc performance DB2 fuel pump is for turbocharged engines ONLY and an intercooler is highly recommended. Works with Stock injectors, but we recommend you consider a set of Moose Mister injectors to allow it to develop its full potential. $735.00 with running core.

I think based on the general experience here with the ATT an intercooler should not be needed. Should be here early next week.

 

[bowtiebutler956]

Update: spoke the guys over at Conestoga yesterday for a bit and I ordered the Bull Moose. Does not sound like the fuel rate drops off with rpms. Also, sounds like I may be the first 6.5er to order the Bull Moose. It is not advertised on there website in the Gm section. Here is the description from the Ford section:

The BULL Moose Pump. Our original is still our most praised. This high flow 100cc performance DB2 fuel pump is for turbocharged engines ONLY and an intercooler is highly recommended. Works with Stock injectors, but we recommend you consider a set of Moose Mister injectors to allow it to develop its full potential. $735.00 with running core.

I think based on the general experience here with the ATT an intercooler should not be needed. Should be here early next week.

I'll certainly be looking forward to your reports on this pump! My IP is working great currently, but with some of my other mods I think this would probably be the next thing on my list for adding power. :thumbsup:

Matt

 

[3500_6.5]

I know a guy who was wanting to buy a pump from them and if I remember right, he asked them specifically if he could get in the 100cc range at 3500 rpm and they told him that they thought they could do it but needed his pump first. He decided against it bc he said they seemed more eager to get his pump than to give him more info on it.

I've never really heard any bad things from their pumps though. And all the Ford guys really seem to like their pumps.

The r&d pumps are like the moose pumps. Geared to the ford db2, but they build both gm and ford db2s. Seems the ford guys buy more performance pumps than the Chevy guys...

A note on the ATT and not needing an intercooler. Depending on what you consider "hot" for an intake temp, I would still recommend it if you run much over 15 psi. Mine could climb well past 150 degrees fairly easy with sustained boost over 10 psi and would climb past 180 if I held boost closer to 15 psi. With my intercooler I have now I have yet to see over 130 degrees, regardless of the boost (most I have ran sustained is around 15-16 psi). This is also running a "hot air intake"- filter hooked directly to the turbo- where I saw over 200 degrees with much less boost when testing without the intercooler.


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[Chevypoor]

I'll certainly be looking forward to your reports on this pump! My IP is working great currently, but with some of my other mods I think this would probably be the next thing on my list for adding power. :thumbsup:

Matt

I will keep you posted- I am anxious to see what she does as well. The boost maxes out now at 13-14psi. On the DS4 equipped trucks I was able to get 18 consistently and once saw 24psi! That one was a one hit wonder that trashed the motor so I have not pushed the turbo/ 6.5/ truck like that again. The old saying if a dog bites you once kinda of thing.

I know a guy who was wanting to buy a pump from them and if I remember right, he asked them specifically if he could get in the 100cc range at 3500 rpm and they told him that they thought they could do it but needed his pump first. He decided against it bc he said they seemed more eager to get his pump than to give him more info on it.

I've never really heard any bad things from their pumps though. And all the Ford guys really seem to like their pumps.

The r&d pumps are like the moose pumps. Geared to the ford db2, but they build both gm and ford db2s. Seems the ford guys buy more performance pumps than the Chevy guys...

A note on the ATT and not needing an intercooler. Depending on what you consider "hot" for an intake temp, I would still recommend it if you run much over 15 psi. Mine could climb well past 150 degrees fairly easy with sustained boost over 10 psi and would climb past 180 if I held boost closer to 15 psi. With my intercooler I have now I have yet to see over 130 degrees, regardless of the boost (most I have ran sustained is around 15-16 psi). This is also running a "hot air intake"- filter hooked directly to the turbo- where I saw over 200 degrees with much less boost when testing without the intercooler.


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I think the 6.5s rep for cracking issues and overheating scares people off from considering it as a serious motor. Then there are the PMD/ electrical issues..... I think we all know with mods, maintenance, and close attention to gauges it can pull with the best of them. Maybe for not as long and sometimes with a bit of pampering! The project truck over at the Diesel Pages they modified/ built a few years ago has well over 200k on its built motor last update I saw. In testing it pulled with an early P Stroke and outpulled a Cummins and that was with a GM-8! We are the minority- when most people find out I am running a 6.5 there comments are not so kind. I agree with you if the boost is sustained for long periods of time. I am thinking I may need to run a Snow methanol injection to start with if this pump is as hot as they say for towing. I may also have to look into an intercooler as I suspect the big snail will hit atleast 18-20 with a load, maybe more. Fortunately I usually do not tow in the mountains and the usual trailer weight that I tow(only about 3-8 times a year) is 5-6000 lbs. If a pull my tractor I am closer to 8000lbs but that only gets moved if I need it for a job or if I need to get it serviced. Most of my mileage is running empty so I will just have see how it goes and monitor the egts. May also look into an air intake monitor/ gauge. What kind of gauges are you guys using for that?

 

[NVW]

I'm late here but IIRC Fords turn the IP in the opposite direction.

 

[Chevypoor]

I'm late here but IIRC Fords turn the IP in the opposite direction.

Conestoga diesel offers GM DB2. When I spoke to them they said they have been selling them for about a year. They have sold 6. Mine makes #7 and the first Bull Moose. They said there is not a lot of interest with the GM IDIs as with the Ferd IDIs.

Well the stars, sun, and moon all aligned yesterday and I was able to play hooky- sometimes there are benefits to owning your own business! Got home early about 2pm. Starting pulling the old IP about 2:15pm. The new IP from Conestoga showed up around 3:00pm. Despite have to stop for a couple of quick rain showers, I got the new IP on and was driving the truck by 5pm. I have never changed an IP before by going through the oil filler tube- looked a lot harder than it actually was.

This info was at the tail end of the included instructions:

There is no break-in period for the Moose Pump, so feel free to lay into it at any time. A few cautions though:
1) For the Bull Moose, and Moose Junior a pyrometer is NOT an option with these pumps. You are guaranteed to melt a piston or blow a head gasket without the proper instrumentation. Conestoga Diesel Injection sells quality pyrometer and boost gauges.
2) Pyrometer probes must be within 3" of the exhaust manifold. NO POST TURBO PYRO's. Your temps will skyrocket much too quickly for a distant probe to safely report. Be on the safe side and KNOW what your EGT's are, right away.
3) For Bull Moose and Moose Junior, this pump has the potential to melt a piston in your engine, if you floor it and hold it there. The maximum HP this pump is capable of producing can only be achieved if your turbo output is intercooled, and your turbo can supply whatever boost is required. That is not to say you will have problems with this pump on a stock turbo IDI. What it means is, that you will and must drive by the pyro, ALWAYS.
4) The extra output of the Bull Moose Pump is best utilized at higher RPM's when maximum boost is possible. At lower RPM's, you will enjoy brief applications of the throttle which will produce monstrous clouds of black smoke. WARNING! People behind you may not be able to see you! Do not stop suddenly! While you’re enjoying the show, don't forget to keep your eye on the pyro. 1250 is the maximum recommended EGT, and only for brief periods. For maximum engine life, keep your EGT’s below 1100 degrees.
The Staff of Conestoga Diesel Injection wishes you the best with your 6.2L or 6.5L IDI.

After reading that I was a bit concerned but I was worried for nothing. My initial impressions are this IP rocks! It is a civilized house cat until you lay the wood to it and then hang on, the tiger is on the prowl! I only have about 20-30 miles of driving but she is easy to drive with NO SMOKE and plenty of power. If you get into before the turbo is in its power band it will smoke/ roll the coal some but way less than some trucks I have seen. In general EGTs are much lower- about 100-150 degrees lower at cruise. Boost is lower by about 1 psi at cruise. At 3/4 throttle I saw almost 15psi and about 650-700 degrees on the pyro. That was at around 70mph in 4th turning 2400-2500 hundred and after a brisk run through the gears. All in great manners at light to moderate throttle, plenty of top end (it runs like a bat out of h%$^&% above 2000 grand!), smoke was light to non existent at normal throttle inputs, smoke was easy to control otherwise. All in all I am impressed at the smoothness and drivability- in general it starts and runs better than any DS4 I have driven. As a bonus for first time since I have the ATeam on any of my trucks she whistles, not as much as GMx turbo but definitely noticeable. That was a nice bonus. I am sure I could lug the motor in 5th and really lay a cloud but who drives that way? In normal driving so far this pump seems to be a solid performer. I plan on going to feed some friends horses this evening then the wife and are going to dinner in Richmond- going to see how she does in some traffic and I will let you guys know.

 

[tanman_2006]

Nice! Good to hear they are well built for a 6.5. Now we just need to let Mel keep tabs on this thread.

 

[bowtiebutler956]

That is great news! I like the way it says Bull Moose on the tag. I notice that its says its a DB2829 6.2 pump. Is that because thats what was on your truck? I guess I would have thought it would be a 2831.

Matt

 

[Chevypoor]

Nice! Good to hear they are well built for a 6.5. Now we just need to let Mel keep tabs on this thread.

They come with a one year unlimited mileage warranty as well. Also forgot to mention they were willing to send mine with the Ferd tail cone for no extra charge. It is drilled and tapped oversized. I had a 3/8" brass nipple that threaded right in.

That is great news! I like the way it says Bull Moose on the tag. I notice that its says its a DB2829 6.2 pump. Is that because thats what was on your truck? I guess I would have thought it would be a 2831.

Matt

I like the tag as well- they also send a nice Bull Moose sticker that as soon as the weather clears I am going to install and post a pic! No my truck had the standard 6.5 turbo IP- the number at the moment escapes me. I will look this evening. My understanding is the case is just that a case. They totally change out the guts/ plungers for whatever level of Moose pump they are building. Who knows what size plungers or other internal mods they do. Took them a week to build it and test on a stand- they did not have this pump on the shelf.

Another observation/ thought I have is this pump may smoke/ roll coal more with a stock turbo or smaller turbo. The ATT moves a lot of air and that helps with clearing the smoke once the rpms are up. I also suspect the greater efficiency from the pocket porting my help with moving air through the motor and clearing the smoke.

 

[tanman_2006]

Like you said, there aren't near as many db2 6.x that go for performance like the furd idi.

A lot of their pump mods started as NA capable pumps, I think thats why they are very refined as a turbo pump

 

[WarWagon]

How did you time your pump? Line to line or an antique tool?

Hopefully your pump is doing better than some others who may or may not have had unrelated issues. We and collectively, me myself and I, have been waiting to see who makes a good DB2 and if this place could pull one off for the 6.5. (My wonky clearance sale pump wasn't built by the current owners.)

High EGT is a busted myth to me. I would ask Conestoga Diesel for some proof of a melted 6.5 engine or turbo that had ECT under 210 due to EGT's. (No a Ford 7.3 is a different unrelated engine and doesn't apply.) My non-coated 6.2 pistons were just fine with 1550 EGT sustained pulling a trailer up a grade using/tuning a DS4. (Ask Buddy who was sitting next to me and turned 'we get to push' ghost white when I read that EGT off to him and didn't lift the throttle. ) For sanity we did use a cooler tune because turning the turbo blanket black on the inside gets expensive as they are like $100 each. Yes, I fix what I *cough* *cough* often *cough* blow up, but, high EGT with ECT under control is something I don't get heartburn over anymore. The one 6.5 engine that PO melted the piston had a stuck injector and a loud unusual ping in the throttle before it melted.

I have no illusions that advancing the timing more with high EGT's is a factor that could possibly change outcomes. And in this case EGT is just a number that needs to be combined with other things to truly worry about.

I suggest pulling a glow plug and checking it for erosion after 1000 miles with this pump. This will tell you if you have too much timing.

 

[tanman_2006]

The comments of melted pistons are just a disclaimer to protect them from some idiot that might abuse the ability of the pump. I never read of any melted pistons on the ford pages.

 

[uniquediesel]

Is the Bull Moose the biggest pump? The little to no smoke tells me about where you're at with fueling, not much. The ATT does not flow that much air, really. Sounds like a 6.2L pump maxed out with some governor work.

 

[floyd400]

I'm curious if you can get a really hot DS4 anywhere? Or is the performance IDI pump market only geared towards the mechanical pumps?

 

[3500_6.5]

I'm curious if you can get a really hot DS4 anywhere? Or is the performance IDI pump market only geared towards the mechanical pumps?

No performance ds4 except Heath's Merlin Pump. Don't really know anything about it other than he claims 400hp out of it. Haven't seen or heard of anyone running one yet. Other than that, it's all mechanical pumps.


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[WarWagon]

Is the Bull Moose the biggest pump? The little to no smoke tells me about where you're at with fueling, not much. The ATT does not flow that much air, really. Sounds like a 6.2L pump maxed out with some governor work.

What are your suggesting flows more air and is this by boost numbers alone?

My 1993 ATT equipped rig has a 6.2 pump that is maxed out. (Bad fuel ruined my 6.5 pump) It doesn't deliver 18 LBS of boost rather a low 12 PSI and I hate the damned small budget pump. Quite frankly it doesn't smoke when compared to a 6.5 pump. Being really specific the difference between passing measured snap testing emissions is not changing the fuel screw anymore like I did with the 6.5 DB2: it is a matter of filling the tank with B99. Yes, I can still puff it at low RPM.

I don't think the OP is saying he is at a loss of low RPM smoke on demand. :dunno:

My dream DB2 pump would have the hypermax smoke puff limiter added to it.

 

[turbovanman]

Awesome, keep us posted on the MPG decrease. :hihi: :rof: