Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

[Ratman]

Next you need a load on the engine just as soon as the oil pressure comes up: brake stall it at 1200-1500 RPM making sure the wheels don't break loose. Further limit the brake stall time to (IMO 30 seconds) otherwise you risk overheat of the trans oil in the converter. High RPM without load doesn't warm the prechamber up very well so this is why I suggest a load. After the glows warm things up and all 8 are hitting I notice a couple of prechambers quickly cool off at idle and the white smoke starts with the camera bouncing miss. I find the immediate brake stand keeps the chambers hot and re-lights any that went out. Keeps the smoke down for me anyway. After the initial dump truck through a nitro plant sounding startup I can drive off more or less smoke free.

WW, I do the same thing, sometimes if mine chugs real bad I will drag the clutch a bit in 4th for a few seconds against the e-brake, just to get it hittin' on all 8, -once the cups get a little heat in them it will usually clean up and idle with no load. I also kick on the defrost (ac compressor) to further load up the engine, that helps too. I think the added load to the engine increases cylinder pressure by making the rings seal up better, -that's the theory I have in my head anyway. I also have bypassed my ECM for glow control and went old school with a Ford starter solenoid and toggle switch with a bright honkin LED so I don't forget and leave them on

I post glow pretty often in winter, -I didn't know it was such a no-no?? I have never exploded a plug yet (knock on wood).

 

[Ratman]

I know that feeling well, it's SO much fun when the parts start showing up! I never spoke with Mel, but I did have a few conversations with Joel - they seem like good people and I'm happy to give them my money.

I like how that fuel delivery system sounds. Mind doesn't stay rock steady at 25psi all the time, so I could use a more stable system I think. Maybe you can post your system so I can take notes from you!!??

No worries on derailing, it seemed on-topic to me. Good luck Rich and keep us updates on your progress!

No problem Nate, but I should probably make sure it works first before I post anything! I will post up a .jpg schematic I made up here in a bit, just so you can look at the concept.

I don't have anything against those Airdog pumps as they are a pretty robust design and made to move a lot of fuel, the real issue to me is the pump running and making way more flow than we need, and internally bypassing with no return a good percentage of the time. That's another thing to consider is just how much fuel we actually need, -which was a topic of discussion Joel and I had. A pump capable of making 60GPH will more than satisfy the power levels we are at, and we will be re-circulating less fuel. I am in no way making any condemning remarks about your lift system!

Being a pump and systems guy for many years, I know that pressure regulators and their ability to accurately control pressure over a given flow range can vary pretty wildly depending on the design. With that said, the amount of flow can have a big effect on how well the regulator does its job. This is where designing your own system can have some advantages as you are able to size components for their intended range of performance, -and hopefully when it's all said and done have something that works better than an off the shelf turn key rig. In a nutshell, returnless systems are hella convenient, but it also narrows the "accuracy flowrange" of the device. By biting the bullet and doing a return system, it opens up a huge flowrange window for the regulator, making it more accurate over a broader flow range, -by design.

The regulator I chose is well known in the racing community, and this particular one is rated for diesel. I spoke with Fuelab and told them about what I was doing. They reassured me that the unit will function accurately at the flow ranges it will be operating.

I also contacted Walbro to discuss the use of diesel in the pump I chose (since diesel isn't specifically mentioned in the pump specs). They said that it will operate just fine in #2, but to be careful about bio-blend (which we already know about). That stuff can be hard on elastomers, so I always steer clear of it given the option. The Walbro pump is actually designed for LS swaps, so it is a pretty robust design, -and inexpensive enough to keep a spare in the glovebox.

I will post up my preliminary lift system schematic here in a bit so you can have a look at it.

Rich.

 

[n8in8or]

No problem Nate, but I should probably make sure it works first before I post anything! I will post up a .jpg schematic I made up here in a bit, just so you can look at the concept.

I don't have anything against those Airdog pumps as they are a pretty robust design and made to move a lot of fuel, the real issue to me is the pump running and making way more flow than we need, and internally bypassing with no return a good percentage of the time. That's another thing to consider is just how much fuel we actually need, -which was a topic of discussion Joel and I had. A pump capable of making 60GPH will more than satisfy the power levels we are at, and we will be re-circulating less fuel. I am in no way making any condemning remarks about your lift system!

Being a pump and systems guy for many years, I know that pressure regulators and their ability to accurately control pressure over a given flow range can vary pretty wildly depending on the design. With that said, the amount of flow can have a big effect on how well the regulator does its job. This is where designing your own system can have some advantages as you are able to size components for their intended range of performance, -and hopefully when it's all said and done have something that works better than an off the shelf turn key rig. In a nutshell, returnless systems are hella convenient, but it also narrows the "accuracy flowrange" of the device. By biting the bullet and doing a return system, it opens up a huge flowrange window for the regulator, making it more accurate over a broader flow range, -by design.

The regulator I chose is well known in the racing community, and this particular one is rated for diesel. I spoke with Fuelab and told them about what I was doing. They reassured me that the unit will function accurately at the flow ranges it will be operating.

I also contacted Walbro to discuss the use of diesel in the pump I chose (since diesel isn't specifically mentioned in the pump specs). They said that it will operate just fine in #2, but to be careful about bio-blend (which we already know about). That stuff can be hard on elastomers, so I always steer clear of it given the option. The Walbro pump is actually designed for LS swaps, so it is a pretty robust design, -and inexpensive enough to keep a spare in the glovebox.

I will post up my preliminary lift system schematic here in a bit so you can have a look at it.

Rich.

I really like the idea of a return style system, I always have - it just seems like a good way to keep fuel cooler, if nothing else. For some reason it hadn't really occured to me that adding the function to the tank could just be as simple as adding an additional tube to the sending unit. DUH.

Something else that is nagging in the back of my mind about the Raptor pump is that it apparently isn't a flow-on-fail design. I could see that sucking in the right circumstance. I thought about plumbing some other pump in parallel with shutoff valves for just in case, but I guess it hasn't worried me THAT much yet since I haven't put in the effort, ha. Is the pump you're going to run flow-on-fail? Also the fact that your pump is small enough to stash in a glove box is encouraging, the Raptor is pretty big, but of course it has the built-in regulator as well.

Dammit, I need to stay off this site - it just keeps giving me ideas of more things to do!

I look forward to seeing what you've worked up.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I post glow pretty often in winter, -I didn't know it was such a no-no?? I have never exploded a plug yet (knock on wood).

It's not a no no if you use glow plugs made in this century. Hasn't been a no no since the origanal 9G's went out of production in 95.

 

[Will L.]

I tried to find his write up to tag the link, but in my twisted mind, a combination of greenmeenh1 's system of electronic pressure control and a good Partsmaster 2785 fanclutch return system like Rich is putting together would be perfect. here is the only part I could find, maybe his posting was on the hummer forum.

View attachment 43626 I have my fuel pressure sender right above the IP within 3 inches of the input. I have an air bleeder there as well. I float my pressure manualy from the dash using a PWM controlled Raptor 150 30psi pump which also has a manual internal output PSI set feature... Over the last 5kmiles i have expiremented with different pressures while driving in various conditions.
Some findings.
Fuel pressure will drop a few PSI in higher altitudes. I have found increasing the fuel pressure to compensate seems to help quite a bit.
At higher RPMs lower fuel pressure seems to work better and provide lower overall temps for some reason. I set to around 3psi when im above 80mph. Around town i run 7-9psi.
In the cold winter higher pressure helps pump the jelly LOL. Last year in Ottawa at a -25 start i needed 16psi to get fuel moving. Once warmed a bit i back it off to about 9psi.
At first install i set the Raptor internaly to 16 psi and would PWM down from that to 7-9 average. Through the RPM range/load the pressure would not budge. I have since set the Raptor to full 30 psi and run the PWM very low. The pump motor is barely turning but still maintains a steady 9psi @ idle to about 8psi @ 1800rpm. Above that the pressure will start to drop or float with the load. At 3100rpm 85mph i will be seeing 3-4 psi. I get at least 1mpg better this way and no shrotage of power and less fiddling with the pressure knob while driving.

@Ratman as for avoiding biofuel- forget it. 4.99 % biofuel by volume is does not just get the ulsd much closer to sulfur spec, but lubricity spec, and is not required to be listed as an additive federally in US.

Last legislation I read on it in 2015, 2020 MANDATED use of it. The plastics to fuel company I was working for, we were searching for anyway around it or exception to it as our fuel well exceeded any bio out there. No exceptions are set. So unless congress writes a new law superseding it- plan on at least 5% and more like 10% in all fuel. On and off road, and wait for it... home heating oil.

 

[Will L.]

@n8in8or
Dont no let flow on fail stop something. A tee before the lp going to a one way valve then to a tee after the pump. When pump is running it will pressurize back to the one way valve. When pump fails, the IP can suck right through the one way valve.

 

[TAG]

My lb7 uses conventional 11 volt self regulating glow plugs, has 1 orifice in the nozzle directed directly at the glow plug tip, and federal lb7's keep the glow plugs on for 30 seconds after the engine starts up to 115 degrees engine temp(Cali trucks keep them on for 60 seconds). The glow plugs that were problematic with after glow were the old style non self regulating plugs. Since late 95 GM has used self regulating plugs, so plugs not being able to run for post glow hasn't been an issue in quite some time. I believe that the 96+ 6.5's even use post glow in factory form more so than the earlier obd1 trucks did of just a few quick blips. Most didn't notice it since GM switched from a glow plug light in 95- powered directly off the relay's power output to an ecm controlled light in 96+.

Just to confirm ferms thoughts, I've been doing up to 15 second after glow for about 5 years. Plugs are 60g installed 10. Years ago with the new engine. Yes...They're all working.

 

[Ratman]

I really like the idea of a return style system, I always have - it just seems like a good way to keep fuel cooler, if nothing else. For some reason it hadn't really occured to me that adding the function to the tank could just be as simple as adding an additional tube to the sending unit. DUH.

Something else that is nagging in the back of my mind about the Raptor pump is that it apparently isn't a flow-on-fail design. I could see that sucking in the right circumstance. I thought about plumbing some other pump in parallel with shutoff valves for just in case, but I guess it hasn't worried me THAT much yet since I haven't put in the effort, ha. Is the pump you're going to run flow-on-fail? Also the fact that your pump is small enough to stash in a glove box is encouraging, the Raptor is pretty big, but of course it has the built-in regulator as well.

Dammit, I need to stay off this site - it just keeps giving me ideas of more things to do!

I look forward to seeing what you've worked up.

I am avoiding adding anything to the sender flange because real estate is so precious there (I plan on leaving the existing return system intact and running MY return system completely separate to avoid any potential back-pressure induced headaches). I plan on tapping into the small metal tube between the two hose connections on the vent line running next to the fill neck and running to the bottom of the tank inside the vent line. That is the plan anyway, -you know how these things go, sometimes you get lucky and get it right on the first go, -but more often than not, things always require some tweaking before they're dialed. Like Will mentioned, that is not a show stopper if the LP isn't a flow through, just tee and elbow around it with a check valve, -done.

The GSL-391 is a flow on fail. I checked crack pressure with the mityvac and it cracks open at about 2-3" Hg. The GSL-391 is shown below next to a CD case for size comparison (yes, I do listen to Dokken, -let the hair-metal bashing begin!)




Rich.

 

[Ratman]

@Ratman as for avoiding biofuel- forget it. 4.99 % biofuel by volume is does not just get the ulsd much closer to sulfur spec, but lubricity spec, and is not required to be listed as an additive federally in US.

Last legislation I read on it in 2015, 2020 MANDATED use of it. The plastics to fuel company I was working for, we were searching for anyway around it or exception to it as our fuel well exceeded any bio out there. No exceptions are set. So unless congress writes a new law superseding it- plan on at least 5% and more like 10% in all fuel. On and off road, and wait for it... home heating oil.

Will, -true, and true, I agree, -your points are well taken. The best fuel we have here is the B5 S15 blended, but there are some "discount" places that sell B20 for less than the B5. I realize we can't completely avoid it, but I would probably walk home before putting B20 in the tank.

Even Viton is not 100% impervious to the stuff, -especially as temps go up. EPDM would be the natural choice for vegetable oil service, but it is not compatible with hydrocarbons such as #2 fuel. I guess the only good news (thinking glass half full here) is that the degradation takes time to occur. How long? -and the result of not catching something before stuff goes to crap and skunks the whole fuel system? -Well, that is something that will continue to keep us all up at night until they start using expensive elastomers such as Kalrez or Chemraz for fuel system components. I guess it falls into the "roll your dice and move your mice" category.

Rich.

 

[Ratman]

Snip: I like how that fuel delivery system sounds. Mind doesn't stay rock steady at 25psi all the time, so I could use a more stable system I think. Maybe you can post your system so I can take notes from you!!??

Nate, shown below is my half-arsed .jpg sketch up of the lift side



Everything is -8 AN right up to the IP where it goes to a -6. I chose to go with Aeroquip since I have had such good experiences with their stuff in the past. This is all Aeroquip AQP socketless hose and Aeroquip push-loc AN connections. The exceptions to that are the adapters for positions 1,20, and 17 which are brass, and 21 that is plated steel. All the NPT connections will have either Rectorseal TrueBlue, or Permatex #2. Many will wonder, -isn't -8 overkill? -Yes, it is, and that is the point.

Rich.

 

[n8in8or]

Nate, shown below is my half-arsed .jpg sketch up of the lift side

View attachment 49105

Everything is -8 AN right up to the IP where it goes to a -6. I chose to go with Aeroquip since I have had such good experiences with their stuff in the past. This is all Aeroquip AQP socketless hose and Aeroquip push-loc AN connections. The exceptions to that are the adapters for positions 1,20, and 17 which are brass, and 21 that is plated steel. All the NPT connections will have either Rectorseal TrueBlue, or Permatex #2. Many will wonder, -isn't -8 overkill? -Yes, it is, and that is the point.

Rich.

Ok Rich, 2 things:

1. Dokken's alright by me, see attached pic of drumhead I had them sign at a local show.

2. If you ever post something as professional and well thought out as that flow diagram on one of my posts again, we're gonna have words . Kidding of course! I see what you're saying about a separate return in the filler neck. It seems like that could work, it's just like you said about getting lucky.... But hey, sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

 

[Ratman]

Ok Rich, 2 things:

1. Dokken's alright by me, see attached pic of drumhead I had them sign at a local show.

2. If you ever post something as professional and well thought out as that flow diagram on one of my posts again, we're gonna have words . Kidding of course! I see what you're saying about a separate return in the filler neck. It seems like that could work, it's just like you said about getting lucky.... But hey, sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

View attachment 49106

Nate! -you gotta be kiddin me!! That my friend is too damn cool!! So now the thread is officially sideways! Hey, -since you started the thread, -does that mean we won't get in trouble? Hopefully Ferm is a metal guy and can relate. So a 6.5 guy, and a Dokken guy, -good thing we're not neighbors, I can see us scaring the crap out of the whole neighborhood!

Yeah, -the whole getting lucky doing it one time thing, -it doesn't happen very often. I once used the blind squirrel finding a nut quote at my old job in front of one of the office gals, -and she said "that is sooo ridiculous, everyone knows squirrels don't find nuts with their eyes" -I responded by asking, -well, so do they have built-in nut-detectors, -or what? She blushed and walked off. The next day I got called into my bosses office for a talkin' to

Don't worry about kidding with me, I am not the easily offended type like these snowflake folks we have runnin around to their safe spaces -or whatever they're called nowadays. I have to try to coexist with those knuckleheads here in the PacNW, -let's just say it is challenging.

I expect more parts to arrive this week, pic's to follow!

Rich.

 

[Will L.]

For the low real estate fuel tank problem, feed the lift pump from a sump you add in the bottom, use the 3/8 existing line as the LP return (loosing the sock of corse) and keep the small ip/injector return stock.

Dokken (holy flashback!) had more talent going in and out of the band than most record labels, and toured with everybody at some point. Quit reminding me I'm old.

 

[n8in8or]

I tried to find his write up to tag the link, but in my twisted mind, a combination of greenmeenh1 's system of electronic pressure control and a good Partsmaster 2785 fanclutch return system like Rich is putting together would be perfect. here is the only part I could find, maybe his posting was on the hummer forum.

You keep talking about this greenmeenh1 person, but without much evidence.....I'm beginning to think that he's your Mr. Snuffleupagus.

 

[WarWagon]

Nate, shown below is my half-arsed .jpg sketch up of the lift side

View attachment 49105

Everything is -8 AN right up to the IP where it goes to a -6. I chose to go with Aeroquip since I have had such good experiences with their stuff in the past. This is all Aeroquip AQP socketless hose and Aeroquip push-loc AN connections. The exceptions to that are the adapters for positions 1,20, and 17 which are brass, and 21 that is plated steel. All the NPT connections will have either Rectorseal TrueBlue, or Permatex #2. Many will wonder, -isn't -8 overkill? -Yes, it is, and that is the point.

Rich.

Brass and BioDiesel don't get along. It turns green. You can't avoid the BioDiesel...

John Deere agrees... Brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin, and zinc can accelerate the oxidation of biodiesel and create deposits in the engine.

https://www.deere.com/en_US/industr..._user_needs_to_know/every_biodiesel_user.page

 

[WarWagon]

It's not a no no if you use glow plugs made in this century. Hasn't been a no no since the origanal 9G's went out of production in 95.

Are you being post glow specific to only 60G's and Duraterms?

The Wellmans and Autolite still have a known reputation for swelling up. For S & G's I lit a couple Wellman plugs up in a vise, longer than the controller would, and watched them swell up. I have some of the Autolite 1112 quick heat plugs (not self regulating but I like how they heat up with stock controller times) and don't recall if I burned some of those up as well for fun. Sure "swelling up" isn't being "blown in half".

The Duraterms only burnt out on me. The 60G's some of mine came out burnt clean off down to the nubs without piston impact damage: However the 60G engine scuffed, cracked, and burned through the #1 piston from being extremely hot then cold shock and ether was involved in starting the engine for the last time after it had the hole in a piston.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I don't even count the waps as they are diesel rx garbage. But even I've lit some off for over 10 minutes and never had any swelling out of them(might still have one left in the shop still). GM has only speced self regulating plugs since mid 95 on. 95+ tuning even specs after glow in it. Yes even with the old style 9g plugs GM ran post glow plugs for up to 10 seconds as my 95's factory programming(both origanal and updated prom) did it. And autolites have a reputation of swelling in ANYTHING! Just look what happens to them in the internationals, and they have zero afterglow. As well as many other's that have ran them. After glow has been a thing for over 20 years on standard run of the mill plugs WITHOUT issue.

 

[Ratman]

Brass and BioDiesel don't get along. It turns green. You can't avoid the BioDiesel...

John Deere agrees... Brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin, and zinc can accelerate the oxidation of biodiesel and create deposits in the engine.

https://www.deere.com/en_US/industr..._user_needs_to_know/every_biodiesel_user.page

Thanks for the heads up WW, that is good info. Time for a plan B or C.

 

[Ratman]

For the low real estate fuel tank problem, feed the lift pump from a sump you add in the bottom, use the 3/8 existing line as the LP return (loosing the sock of corse) and keep the small ip/injector return stock.

Dokken (holy flashback!) had more talent going in and out of the band than most record labels, and toured with everybody at some point. Quit reminding me I'm old.

Will, I really like this idea, -since I will have the tank on the ground anyway and not rushed for time, I could make my own sump.

Yeah man, I hear ya on the getting old thing, I still refuse to grow up though!

 

[FellowTraveler]

I tried to find his write up to tag the link, but in my twisted mind, a combination of greenmeenh1 's system of electronic pressure control and a good Partsmaster 2785 fanclutch return system like Rich is putting together would be perfect. here is the only part I could find, maybe his posting was on the hummer forum.



@Ratman as for avoiding biofuel- forget it. 4.99 % biofuel by volume is does not just get the ulsd much closer to sulfur spec, but lubricity spec, and is not required to be listed as an additive federally in US.

Last legislation I read on it in 2015, 2020 MANDATED use of it. The plastics to fuel company I was working for, we were searching for anyway around it or exception to it as our fuel well exceeded any bio out there. No exceptions are set. So unless congress writes a new law superseding it- plan on at least 5% and more like 10% in all fuel. On and off road, and wait for it... home heating oil.

Kind of makes one wonder how many in congress have corn investments as well as oil in their portfolio.