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Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

n8in8or said:
So interestingly, while I was talking to Joel about some other stuff he said, "Something else I just remembered that I wanted to mention. The puff limiter is designed for the Ford DB2. We have used them on GM applications with one note. The cold start solenoid terminal connector will foul your throttle shaft. This will leave you with two options: Delete the cold start solenoid and just use a nut and bolt with the supplied insulator to block it off. With the extra fuel provided I think you will warm up sufficiently without the extra advance. If you go this route be sure to use lock tite on the hardware to prevent it vibrating loose. The other option would be to cut the end off of the cold start solenoid terminal and shorten your attachments accordingly and perhaps clearance the throttle shaft slightly to make room."

I'm glad he mentioned that because I definitely had clearance issues between the cold advance solenoid and the throttle arm. It would be super tough to make it clear the throttle arm so I went with the deletion route. I installed a Phillips head screw with the head facing out to try to gain as much clearance as possible. I also installed Red Loctite on the threads so that nut will NOT come off. During test fit I found that the arm was still rubbing the screw head so I used a dremel to grind some clearance into the head. Even then I had to bend the throttle arm away from the pump to get final clearance! Getting that taken care of took a bit of time. Then I started looking at the clearance of the aneroid to the intake and the barb was pretty tight to the plenum. It's a super small thread on that (1/16" NPT?) so there was no way I was finding an elbow last night. So I trimmed the end of the fitting just past the barb. Unfortunately I only got a "before" pic and not an "after" pic, but I think you can picture what I did. That gained me about 1/8". It's a tight fit but it doesn't kink and since the hose is under pressure and not vacuum that will help keep the hose open.

I had to take the intercooler, AC compressor, coolant crossover and fast idle solenoid off to get access to the pump, so in all the job took about 2.5 hours to complete. I neglected to do the initial setup that Hypermax recommends which is: turn the aneroid in until it starts lowering idle, then back it out 1 turn.

So despite that, here are my initial impressions: I can still make a pretty good cloud if I tromp on it before boost comes on. However just going up hills in a high gear it is much more civilized. Also, it has turned the throttle into a much more linear progression. Before, not much off idle I could really pull strong, now I have to give it more throttle to feel that. That makes sense to me since the puff limiter holds back the fuel valve until boost is up. I did another 0-70-ish run just going around the block. This time I had my brother and a more or less full tank of fuel in the truck, so about 400 pounds more? My butt dyno said it was slower, but that's just my butt dyno. I'll do some actual testing to see how it really compares once I have it fully set. If it operates how designed, it should not affect overall performance, in fact if anything it should improve it because it doesn't flood the engine with fuel at the initial hit of the throttle. I am going to email Joel and get his thoughts on the travel of the aneroid versus how much the governor arm travels and make sure that it couldn't actually restrict overall travel. That's just a side note, I have no verification at all that it actually is slower, it was one hit with more weight based on a butt dyno!

The other thing I might try is adding a mechanical, click-type wastegate actuator to the supply line. It seems that if it limited fuel until about 8-10 psi instead of the 5-ish psi that it limits it to right now that maybe I'd puff less. They're cheap enough (like $20) that it would probably be a worthwhile experiment.

Yes, Conestoga absolutely would have installed the Puff Limiter. In fact, that is typically their preference, but he didn't object to me installing it myself since I showed I had some mechanical capability. I wanted to install it myself for the purposes of testing and to save some money up front. I wasn't 100% sure that I would need it when I conceived this project, so I didn't want to spend the extra money. But if I did need it, I wanted to see a before and after comparison of how it reacted and share that. That's why I didn't have them install it. Once I get it tweaked I will do a full comparison for you guys. If I don't lose any full output power, yet it reduces light throttle smoke like it has so far, then I would call it a success, but it by no means appears to kill all smoke. However, in talking with Joel yesterday about some other stuff he mentioned this: The Stanadyne starting fuel spec for a DB2 is 35cc/1000 strokes. Most of their Street level pumps make 50-70cc/1000 strokes. The standard Omega makes 80-100cc/1000 strokes of starting fuel. MY PUMP makes 130cc/1000 strokes at 150 (yes, 1 5 0) rpm! So even if the aneroid is limiting the fueling some, this pump is still making a lot of fuel.

The reason that topic came up is that I'm getting some misfiring and gray smoke at start up, sometimes worse than others. I thought I had some air intrusion into my fuel system, but he's wondering if it's just the engine trying to clean up the extra fuel from cranking. I'm playing around with glow plug time to see if I can affect it. I also installed some good clear tubing on the return last night so I can start keeping track of any air bubbles.

I will continue to fine tune and document this week. It will be a long process because I want to change just one thing at a time, but I will do it since it will be the most meaningful and helpful. BUT, it's killing me to not mess with the trans tuning - I REALLY want to start raising my shift points!!

More soon.

View attachment 47929 View attachment 47930 View attachment 47931 View attachment 47932 View attachment 47933 View attachment 47934 View attachment 47935 View attachment 47936
Click to expand...

Finally a picture showing if and how the Hypermax puff limiter clears a 6.5 intake! I will have to ask Conestoga to play with one and see if they can keep the cold advance in a custom pump one day.

Your 1/4 mile time, aside of it being HOT out here on the strip, would run with my past (good riddance!) tuned Trailblazer SS having a 6500 RPM redline, lighter at 4,496 to 4,663 lbs, stock 395 HP and 400 lb ft of torque from the Corvette LS2 GM hurriedly dropped in. It would do 14 seconds flat at 98 MPH when it was 100 degrees out. That is when I could keep the lemon it was out of the shop. Eaton called for dyno oil on the posi and GM's zero maintenance blind stupidity kept putting in synthetic oil through several oil revisions. Never seen that many rear end rebuilds under warranty before = lemon law...

The Trailblazer SS only towed the parts route a week before the weak transmission vaporized while I was doing an engine swap on Patch...
 
WarWagon said:
Finally a picture showing if and how the Hypermax puff limiter clears a 6.5 intake! I will have to ask Conestoga to play with one and see if they can keep the cold advance in a custom pump one day.

Your 1/4 mile time, aside of it being HOT out here on the strip, would run with my past (good riddance!) tuned Trailblazer SS having a 6500 RPM redline, lighter at 4,496 to 4,663 lbs, stock 395 HP and 400 lb ft of torque from the Corvette LS2 GM hurriedly dropped in. It would do 14 seconds flat at 98 MPH when it was 100 degrees out. That is when I could keep the lemon it was out of the shop. Eaton called for dyno oil on the posi and GM's zero maintenance blind stupidity kept putting in synthetic oil through several oil revisions. Never seen that many rear end rebuilds under warranty before = lemon law...

The Trailblazer SS only towed the parts route a week before the weak transmission vaporized while I was doing an engine swap on Patch...
Click to expand...
If you need any other pics, I'm happy to oblige WW. Joel told me that they have made the cold advance work with the Puff Limiter and I'm sure I could too with a little effort. It would be a lot easier with the pump on a bench so you can see clearances better, but it could be done on the engine. He also mentioned the possibility of a solenoid with a remote terminal that could be run out of the top of the housing rather than the side. I haven't heard if he has had any luck with that or not though - I think he's been busy enough with other stuff that he's just never gotten around to it.

Wow, close to hanging with a tuned Trailblazer SS??? I'll take that!
 
Ok, I let the truck sit outside in the cold all day today....and since it's pretty darn cold out it seemed like a good idea to do a cold start video to show how the combo deals with it. I wanted to do this because before I started doing modifications I wondered how they would affect the drivability of the truck. Hopefully by sharing stuff like this it helps to show a more and more complete story of how my truck behaves.

I have the details documented in the video, but here they are again just for clarity:
•Sitting 10 hours at 13*F and 1*F wind chill
•Conestoga Omega Plus Moose DB2 (no cold advance or fast idle)
•~19:1 compression (-.010" comp ht pistons & +.010 comp ht gaskets)
•Bosch Duraterm glow plugs controlled by the computer, but since no sensors are hooked to the computer the plugs run maximum time
•Powermaster starter
•8 month old batteries
•1/0 battery cables
•Stanadyne Performance Formula additive

I know this isn't super cold for some of you, but this is one of the colder days so far this winter so it was a good opportunity to do this. If I have a colder opportunity to do a video I will do so. Enjoy.

 
Few things:
1. Omg what is that white stuff- radio active fallout?
2. Never noticed the rims- cool. Man thats a good looking rig.
3. Sure cranks over nice and fast. Starts well, I will
agree more glow time would help it more. A draw back of lower compression ratio.
4. Your truck spins its tires all by itself, you dont have to blame it on the snow.
5. You sound like a very calm, collected guy. With your build I kinda expected someone that spoke fast,hyperactive, and all excited.
 
Just started mine in the same weather ( 40 miles north)after12 hours. 18:1 motor. No smoke. Without the magic button, I would've smoked out the whole neighborhood.
 
TAG said:
Just started mine in the same weather ( 40 miles north)after12 hours. 18:1 motor. No smoke. Without the magic button, I would've smoked out the whole neighborhood.
Click to expand...
Oooh a built 6.5 close by?? Cool!

Are you running a DB2 or a DS4? I ran the same engine last winter and didn't have any cold start issues, without the electronic aids it's a but more cold-blooded, but I'd gladly trade that for the performance I've gained. I think if I had the cold advance working it would be running better cold. Even in the summer I've had some cold start issues that got better once I put a little more advance in.
 
Will L. said:
Few things:
1. Omg what is that white stuff- radio active fallout?
2. Never noticed the rims- cool. Man thats a good looking rig.
3. Sure cranks over nice and fast. Starts well, I will
agree more glow time would help it more. A draw back of lower compression ratio.
4. Your truck spins its tires all by itself, you dont have to blame it on the snow.
5. You sound like a very calm, collected guy. With your build I kinda expected someone that spoke fast,hyperactive, and all excited.
Click to expand...
Oooh, I love a list!!

1. I think it's the ash from the desert-charred vegetation from your area coming back to the terra firma.

2. Thanks! Maybe someday I could be cool enough to have a real Hummer like you....for now I'll settle for the poser wheels. I like being different, I like I don't see other people running these wheels and they're actually kinda cheap, too. Win, win!!

3. Sounds like I'll need to add that little button and see what that does. I don't hate how it starts now, but yeah I'd rather not smoke out the parking lot. At home I have a garage and a plug so I have no problems there...it's mostly work I'm concerned with.

4. Well.....you got me.

5. Hmmmm, I try to stay cool, but I did have an assist from the bitter cold.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
It's a direct injected duramax, so a bit newer technology.
Click to expand...
Yeah I get that, I just figured since you posted your cold start video here that there was maybe something that could be gleaned from it. That in addition to your tuning knowledge, I thought it would be interesting to know what was in the tuning files for cold starting it.
 
I too would be interested to know the timing strategy on the Duramax. I've tried advancing & retarding the timing on my engine & it really doesn't seem to make much difference. I'm sure if I could figure out how to make a ds4 put out 30,000 psi that would make a difference. I've also tried adding fuel during crank & that didn't do much either.
 
30,000 psi from a ds4? Holy smokes!!

Years ago i was rebuilding 6.5 injectors and was playing with pressure. I flushed and filled a air over hydraulic jack we had and ran pressure up to 7,500. It was blowing apart injector lines, and when I got one to hold (3rd or 4th line) and he injector chattered so bad it would spray anything worth a dang.

Also as the pressure increases the misting gets more and more fine, but the volume of fuel falls with the increased pressure.

Iirc a ds4 puts out something like 4000-4500 psi.
 
Point being, I think that is why the later model diesels start so cleanly in the cold. Much higher pressure + multiple injection events per stroke. No rotary pump i've ever heard of will match that capability so we have to make due with manual gp override I guess.
 
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