Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

[FellowTraveler]

@FellowTraveler I agree he is building boost very quickly at the bottom end, and a t4 would help more than the t3, moving more air would help his burn. Back in the day I did it with twin turbos iirc on t3 flanges. So yes more air.

The QSV is not going to give him a higher top end psi. It will simply ramp up to the peak boost quicker. Where he is a .5 now he could be at .6. Where at 1.5 now maybe he gets to 1.9 and so forth. By getting the boost sooner in the rpm band he will burn a little more fuel at lower rpm. I don't think it would eliminate all of the smoke, but 10-20% less is a big chunk.

Head gaskets don't pop because of the rate of acceleration. Think supercharger. If they handle 18 psi at high rpm, and you could have 18 psi at 1000 rpm and hold it there all the way up the band. Building boost faster is not going to pop a head gasket. If building it quicker allows you to hit a new peak at top end rpm then the potential is there to pop it at the new peak level when the shockwave is harder at higher rpm.

One more time back to my past: propane. While propane does have less btu, it has a much lower flashpoint. The propane igniting before the diesel drives the burn time much quicker allowing more diesel to burn in the same stroke degree. This means more of the fuel being put into the cylinder being burned in the same amount of time.
The propane comes in the cylinder through the intake valve (usually) where and how it's injected determines at what compression ratio it ignites. Liquid is up at 17:1 and full gasified is at 15.5:1 ratio. So if you want it to help the egt protecting the turbo seals the most, inject it pre turbo. For less egt cooling but a much faster burn of the diesel fuel, mounting it as close to the intake valve spraying in liquid form gets the most power out of it but a less clean burn. This requires a piezo injector tip, that usually lasts 5-10 minutes of life and the trons to operate them. Not worth it here at all. It was great for me at the dragstrip though. I also had a fogged spray shooting directly into my turbos to eliminate the heat from my incoming air and chill the turbo seals. That set up we later perfected on Shelby's build, and found the liquid injection at the end of the intake runners only being used up to 1,200 rpm greatly extending the injector life and overcoming lag. There is always lag on ANY turbo, compared to a supercharger.

My suggestion on propane would be post turbo. Nate doesn't need much here, and a little goes a long way for cleaning exhaust. He is not fighting tremendous egt, so going into the turbo isn't needed, let it do the cyclic effect of lower iat resulting in lower egt. Besides, it's not fair Leroy spends all your $, I want to help you spend some too.

He's already @ 2.9 pressure ratio on the big 40 which equates to 43 psi +- actual I go there myself and often so I voiced concern about the HG's.

Perhaps, a QSV would give it enough to eliminate the smoke down low & @ T4 housing could be the ticket too....

Increasing VE over what is already in the mix requires higher rpm's as I posted in http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/rpm-to-ve-cfm-flow-through-the-6-5td.45002/ I would not wander into higher boost unless someone can confirm they been there on a regular basis and no damage done, so more air & density...

 

[FellowTraveler]

I might be asking for too much - wanting all the fuel I have for the power up top and not smoking down low, but I intend to find out. That's where electronic injection systems have the advantage over mechanical systems, it's unfortunate the electronic system can't put out this level of fuel. I'd love seeing what Heath's Merlin pump can do, but so far there's nothing out there to be seen.

My biggest issue to address right now is the loading up at start up. It sucks having a truck that runs really well but when you start it up stumbles and smokes. So that is something that NEEDS to be addressed. Second order of business is trans tuning, but I am waiting to do that so all comparisons are apples to apples. It's all coming together. I have the air and the fuel, now I just need to optimize it the best I can.

I've only had luck with firm and extra firm shifting the 4L80e...

As for the Merlin no specs but a big price tag I suspect that's why no info is available, anyone know of someone using that Merlin?

 

[Burning oil]

Maybe one of those aftermarket fuel injection conversion systems has a nice way to signal an injector. Crank triggered or?? Seems doable, I just have not burnt any brain cells think/researching it yet. I will in the future though as I always wanted to try LPG.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Propane sounds fun to try for sure. A downside of the propane for me though is the tank in my already spatially challenged Tahoe. I have a plan in the works to make a custom front bumper that will house the intercooler radiator - this will free up the space under the truck midships and maybe a cylinder could go there. Then there are the fillups. All doable possibly, just more challenging than water. I do worry about what my EGTs are going to do once I start towing with this thing so I am working on contingency plans in my head. Water injection is probably quicker and cheaper to implement so that would probably be my starting point. For now the money has pretty well dried up (THANKS GUYS ) so I'll need to be more selective with upgrades for a bit.

Just to be curious, what are the chances water and propane injection would use the same nozzles?

I feel like it wouldn't be hard to do an rpm-based cutout switch for propane injection. They have rpm-based cutin switches so worst case it would just be a relay system to reverse the polarity I think. But I bet it can be easier than that. If I did that though I'd lose the cooling effect of the propane at the higher rpm and i don't think i'd want that. It's probably more of a situation of finding the right amount that cools EGT and helps complete fuel burn but doesn't boost fueling of the cylinder a ton. Sounds like fun to try. Dammit Will

Oh also just for clarification, when you suggest post-turbo injection, are you thinking pre-intercooler?

Oh also a note on the QSV. I can see how that would have benefit the sustem but my problem with the QSV has always been the packaging - they seem to take up so much space in an already awkward location. My mind is still pretty fixated on the variable turbo idea (not COMPOUNDED Leroy ) because it would give the best of both worlds: small turbine housing at low boost and an even larger turbine housing than I'm running now at high boost. Plus the housing could be opened right up on the highway for more-efficient cruising. Win, win, win. Oh and the packaging is pretty good too. I always thought I would do one in a center mount application, but with the air I can flow now, and the effort I have in my current header, maybe the added trouble of engineering a center mount isn't worth it. At some point I need to be happy enough with this thing so I can stop spending money on it and finally work on one of the other projects waiting in the wings.

1k psi water injection using fogger nozzle will give you more oxygen and cool things down big time....IMO cheapest route from where you are to where you want to be.

 

[Will L.]

Dammit Will-I'm a Dr., not a philanthropist! There, finished it for you.
Idk what a used QSV goes for, just thought It might be cheaper/easier than redoing his header set up. If it's not just a couple hundred and a day or so to fit in, then I'd say skip it. My theory was it would just help eliminate a portion of the smoke while very slightly helping acceleration.
I agree more air flow under less pressure is always the best answer.

I forgot about you already owning the water... Get that in there before changing too much. That will help as well and is a big variable.

Yes, post turbo, pre inter cooler- it's an exponential effect.

If you ever do propane- I am a firm believer in a blast shield. Think smaller diameter tanks with a remote refill spout. We used to use ones from a welding supply shop, Iirc it was 10" diameter 30" long and built to lay on its side like a forklift tank. Nice thing was you can do monthly rental like regular bottles if you have an account and are only trying it out. Then refill at gas stations that do it close to the house(hopefully).

And just since no one said it yet- nitrous? I don't like it on diesels, but a tiny amount will add the oxygen needed for the clean burn then out by 1800 rpm ish. Ok punch me in the face in 3,2,1,

Where the heck is @greenmeanh1 - that guy knows his trons. I bet he has an answer for rpm activated switches. So many pulses per second = trigger. They've been done before- it's just above my mental capacitor.

 

[n8in8or]

Maybe one of those aftermarket fuel injection conversion systems has a nice way to signal an injector. Crank triggered or?? Seems doable, I just have not burnt any brain cells think/researching it yet. I will in the future though as I always wanted to try LPG.

I was first thinking about the sensor they use for running a timing light that clips on the injector line - use 8 of those and trigger the system......but duh a crank trigger would be much more economical.

 

[n8in8or]

Dammit Will-I'm a Dr., not a philanthropist! There, finished it for you.
Idk what a used QSV goes for, just thought It might be cheaper/easier than redoing his header set up. If it's not just a couple hundred and a day or so to fit in, then I'd say skip it. My theory was it would just help eliminate a portion of the smoke while very slightly helping acceleration.
I agree more air flow under less pressure is always the best answer.

I forgot about you already owning the water... Get that in there before changing too much. That will help as well and is a big variable.

Yes, post turbo, pre inter cooler- it's an exponential effect.

If you ever do propane- I am a firm believer in a blast shield. Think smaller diameter tanks with a remote refill spout. We used to use ones from a welding supply shop, Iirc it was 10" diameter 30" long and built to lay on its side like a forklift tank. Nice thing was you can do monthly rental like regular bottles if you have an account and are only trying it out. Then refill at gas stations that do it close to the house(hopefully).

And just since no one said it yet- nitrous? I don't like it on diesels, but a tiny amount will add the oxygen needed for the clean burn then out by 1800 rpm ish. Ok punch me in the face in 3,2,1,

Where the heck is @greenmeanh1 - that guy knows his trons. I bet he has an answer for rpm activated switches. So many pulses per second = trigger. They've been done before- it's just above my mental capacitor.

I was thinking I would use an rv style horizontal tank with a remote fill. Your way sounds cheaper though.

I don't own any water injection stuff yet, I was just wondering if the nozzles would be the same or similar just for curiosity's sake.

I thought pre-intercooler sounded like a good idea because it would help to cool the intercooler. I thought that with water injection too but it seems like most kits were talking about injecting post intercooler - not sure why. I could see a nozzle pre and post intercooler being a good setup.

 

[Burning oil]

I was first thinking about the sensor they use for running a timing light that clips on the injector line - use 8 of those and trigger the system......but duh a crank trigger would be much more economical.

I thought the same thing. I have some of those TinyTach displays that use the same type trigger or at least I think its the same.
But yeah a crank trigger seems doable. My brain is taxed to the limit for now so would be a while before I look into it. Maybe some of you guys with gasser experience can post up. Maybe new thread Nate?

 

[n8in8or]

1k psi water injection using fogger nozzle will give you more oxygen and cool things down big time....IMO cheapest route from where you are to where you want to be.

Yup. I like that pump you showed me and I think that would be the next step to go. Just need to research nozzles and decide how I'd want to trigger it. I think I'd put a water reservoir in the dead space behind the spare tire.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Rpm activated switches are easy. He already has the hall effect frank sensor to feed it an rpm signal. Problem with n2o is if you hit before theres enough boost, you can get a nice boom out the intake. Watch some of the youtube videos of people "ghetto fogging" diesels, and you'll see what I mean. It can be BRUTAL when nitrous pops back on a diesel. All this time, I'm really surprised someone hasn't triedmaking a DS4 hybrid with larger plungers. Tuning would be tricky, but I'm sure an arduino could do it.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

You want to inject your wmi right at the intake of the engine. The wmi will cool the intake charge by itself, you don't want the wmi mix settling out in your charge air cooler, the delay of the wmi mak8ng it through the cooler then into your engine would also be a factor, and not to mention the cooler could actually cause wmi to collect inside or disrupt the supply into the engine giving an inconsistent flow/supply.

 

[n8in8or]

I did a video showing what I've been calling the "loading up" problem I'm currently having. It doesn't do it all the time and sometimes it's worse than others. I did manage to capture it but it probably doesn't translate as well over a video as it does experiencing it in person. This particular one it seems fine while it's idling but as soon as it's given a little throttle it shows itself in rough running and white smoke. So if I was getting ready to leave a parking spot things would seem fine but once I got in gear and gave it a little throttle it would run rough and blow white smoke. Then if I take off just a little strong and put the engine under load it burns off the excess fuel and it's fine until the next time I start it. It does this with the engine cold or hot. Joel thinks the engine is just having trouble burning all the fuel the pump makes at idle and he's hoping a little advance will take care of that. Once my Ferret adapter shows up I'm going to give various amounts of timing a try. I wonder if I'd have this problem if my compression was normal?

 

[Will L.]

Idk about nozzle similarity.

Propane, nitrous, etc before an inner cooler works because it is well above it boiling point and stay a gas no matter what. Water can condense and attatch to walls causing corrosion and restriction. Heat goes to cold, so the heat is pulled out of the air and into the propane until the propane is as hot as the air. Since this can't happen without enough pressure to coalesce it expands and gets pushed against the walls of the chamber its in this is literally forcing convection of the heat in the air through the tubes of the heat exchanger.

If the water was in with the propane: the propane would strip the heat off the water first, then the air. Then the heat could finally come out of the air into the water, after the surface of the water has changed state to an ice coated droplet of water. It simply slows the process of the propane cooling the air. In engines I have no experience with it, but it's a used process in commercial heat exchangers that process fuel I e worked with. It's how you remove water from fuel in vapor form.

Using water or water meth you'll defiantly get lower egt going through it like Ferm mentioned is the safer bet. If used with propane you'd have to experiment because it's all ratio of propane:methonal:water and exchange rate of your unit.

As to the white smoke, yes removing the timing advance control would cause some white smoke from a unburned fuel in the presence of oxygen. Unburned fuel without oxygen is when it turns black. Advancing the injection timing lets that fuel burn a little longer in the chamber and clean up by burning more hydrogen.

Again a lower flashpoint fuel could eliminate it also, but at more risk.

The n02 intake flashback before boost is up is those pesky intake valves trying to let it in, but just not in time without the turbo shoving it in quick enough. Yeah, I really don't recommend it- don't like it on a diesel. But had to say it just because it works on similar principle of promoting faster burn.

 

[FellowTraveler]

You want to inject your wmi right at the intake of the engine. The wmi will cool the intake charge by itself, you don't want the wmi mix settling out in your charge air cooler, the delay of the wmi mak8ng it through the cooler then into your engine would also be a factor, and not to mention the cooler could actually cause wmi to collect inside or disrupt the supply into the engine giving an inconsistent flow/supply.

Exactly @ the intake, and fogger nozzle (s) w/1k pump IMO is the way to go, yea people do run lower psi but the 1k pup is really the way make lots of fog. Consider, you must subtract the boost and nozzle flow from the pumps capacity.

This type of fogger can be used on boosted gassers w/o the need to retard timing up top which equates to substantial hp/tq gains.....

 

[FellowTraveler]

I did a video showing what I've been calling the "loading up" problem I'm currently having. It doesn't do it all the time and sometimes it's worse than others. I did manage to capture it but it probably doesn't translate as well over a video as it does experiencing it in person. This particular one it seems fine while it's idling but as soon as it's given a little throttle it shows itself in rough running and white smoke. So if I was getting ready to leave a parking spot things would seem fine but once I got in gear and gave it a little throttle it would run rough and blow white smoke. Then if I take off just a little strong and put the engine under load it burns off the excess fuel and it's fine until the next time I start it. It does this with the engine cold or hot. Joel thinks the engine is just having trouble burning all the fuel the pump makes at idle and he's hoping a little advance will take care of that. Once my Ferret adapter shows up I'm going to give various amounts of timing a try. I wonder if I'd have this problem if my compression was normal?

Question, how much boost pressure can that limiter device you installed on the pump take before failure?

 

[FellowTraveler]

Here are some starting points for water delivery @ +- 12% water to fuel, they can be single or double nozzle (s), your fuel delivery my require a higher water delivery starting point, meth is ok but not necessary using 1k fogger system;
300 HP 160 cc's/min
350 HP 180 cc's/min
375 HP 200 cc's/min
400 HP 210 cc's/min
450 HP 240 cc's/min

 

[n8in8or]

Question, how much boost pressure can that limiter device you installed on the pump take before failure?

I wondered that myself but I don't know. I guess it can handle 28 psi, but who knows for how long.

 

[n8in8or]

You want to inject your wmi right at the intake of the engine. The wmi will cool the intake charge by itself, you don't want the wmi mix settling out in your charge air cooler, the delay of the wmi mak8ng it through the cooler then into your engine would also be a factor, and not to mention the cooler could actually cause wmi to collect inside or disrupt the supply into the engine giving an inconsistent flow/supply.

Idk about nozzle similarity.

Propane, nitrous, etc before an inner cooler works because it is well above it boiling point and stay a gas no matter what. Water can condense and attatch to walls causing corrosion and restriction. Heat goes to cold, so the heat is pulled out of the air and into the propane until the propane is as hot as the air. Since this can't happen without enough pressure to coalesce it expands and gets pushed against the walls of the chamber its in this is literally forcing convection of the heat in the air through the tubes of the heat exchanger.

If the water was in with the propane: the propane would strip the heat off the water first, then the air. Then the heat could finally come out of the air into the water, after the surface of the water has changed state to an ice coated droplet of water. It simply slows the process of the propane cooling the air. In engines I have no experience with it, but it's a used process in commercial heat exchangers that process fuel I e worked with. It's how you remove water from fuel in vapor form.

Using water or water meth you'll defiantly get lower egt going through it like Ferm mentioned is the safer bet. If used with propane you'd have to experiment because it's all ratio of propane:methonal:water and exchange rate of your unit.

As to the white smoke, yes removing the timing advance control would cause some white smoke from a unburned fuel in the presence of oxygen. Unburned fuel without oxygen is when it turns black. Advancing the injection timing lets that fuel burn a little longer in the chamber and clean up by burning more hydrogen.

Again a lower flashpoint fuel could eliminate it also, but at more risk.

The n02 intake flashback before boost is up is those pesky intake valves trying to let it in, but just not in time without the turbo shoving it in quick enough. Yeah, I really don't recommend it- don't like it on a diesel. But had to say it just because it works on similar principle of promoting faster burn.

Thanks guys, that makes sense. I hadn't thought about the water condensing, coming out of suspension and making a real mess of things.

 

[n8in8or]

Ok more progress. I now have working cruise control! I did most of the underdash wiring Thursday night and finished the rest today. I'll try to share details as I remember them. I had read of some people tapping into the ECM wires for the signals for the control, but that seemed like a lot of extra wire to me when all the switches are at the steering column. Also I wanted to tap into the truck's harness and not the multi-function switch in case the switch needed to be replaced-it would still be plug and play. I found some diagrams online that were useful and those are in the pics below. I found the wires from the multi-function switch for the cruise, they were Dark Blue for Set/Coast, Gray for Cruise On and Grey/Black for Resume/Accel. I also found the brake switch wires I needed, they were White for Brake Active and Purple for Brake Inactive. What's nice is these are the same colors for the corresponding inputs to the cruise module. Again, I'm using a module from a gasser Tahoe with a 5.7 Vortec. Then it was just 12V switched, Ground and the Vehicle Speed. I first tried using the speedometer output from the trans controller because it was convenient - that didn't work. So I went to the Vehicle Speed Sensor Buffer. I tapped into the Green/White wire, which was also the same color as the module pigtail. That worked. So now I have cruise!

Note that there are some letters on the module plug that correspond to the letters in that post.

Also note that I discovered the cruise control cable was actually holding the throttle open the other day, so when I installed the puff limiter I removed that spacer sleeve I put on the cable. (Picture attached to show it installed before). So far I have tested the cruise up to 60, but I will have to see how well it works long term - I may have to install a shorter sleeve on the cable to make sure the module has enough cable travel.

Multi-function harness


Brake switch harness


Cruise module pigtail


You can almost sorta see the letters on the plug


Corresponding function of lettered wires


Schematic of wires for cruise module. The check marks are from me verifying the colors indicated matched the function of the wires I found under the dash. They did!


VSSB wiring. The Green/White wire is the one I tapped into.


The cable with the spacer on it. Spacer is now removed

 

[n8in8or]

I got the Ferret timing adapter and got to play with it. At first I couldn't get it to work - turns out it was my cheap Actron timing light. I bought the best Innova timing light Autozone had with all the features like programmable advance, dwell, tach, a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time smuggrin. The built in tach was really handy because I could raise the rpm by hand and see what I was doing right then. Initially I had about 3* advance at 650 idle and 0* at 1600 rpm. Conestoga said they like to set 6.5 diesels at 7.5* advance at 1600 rpm but said that probably wouldn't apply to my pump. So I got out the tools and moved the pump. I have made this thing really fun to work on NOT!! I had to go under the intake from the back to get the driver's side nut. I had to use a ratcheting box end with a second wrench attached to get the passenger's side nut and then a standard box end to do the top one. I made some nice tools to adjust the DS4 super easily and none of them work now! If I had made the cable bracket a little smaller the passenger's side wrench probably would have worked but too late now. Good news is that the throttle cable bracket was tough enough to use as a pry point to rotate the pump. So I advanced the pump as far as it would go which was maybe a nickel's width. I tightened the 2 easier to get to nuts and started it again. This time I had 6* at 650 and 3* advance at 1600 rpm. Best yet is that it didn't smoke and stumble! I've started it a few times and so far all is good. We'll see how it acts in the real world the next couple days. I took it for a drive and I didn't notice more smoke and it seemed as responsive as before. Hopefully that was enough because the fast idle solenoid is hitting the thermostat housing - keeping me from going any more advanced. I did a video of the Ferret in action. It's hard to hear me talk over the engine but hopefully you get the jist of it.