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Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

Stupid question, but I assume the Puff Limiter (the picture of the instructions referred to 6.9/7.3 IP's) will bolt on and function with our 6.5 DB2 pumps and that you already checked with Hypermax about that?
 
Husker6.5 said:
Stupid question, but I assume the Puff Limiter (the picture of the instructions referred to 6.9/7.3 IP's) will bolt on and function with our 6.5 DB2 pumps and that you already checked with Hypermax about that?
Click to expand...
I bought the puff limiter through Conestoga, so I can only assume they know it will work on a 6.5 pump too. I believe a DB2 is a DB2 as far as that is concerned, but if not, I think it will be readily apparent if the internal linkages don't line up with the aneroid. I think there just aren't many people playing with GMs like this and Hypermax specializes in Ford parts. If it does work, perhaps I'll contact Hypermax to let them know that they shouldn't exclude the GM applications from the instructions.
 
Another stupid question. Couldn't they have installed it when you bought the Moose from them? Does your installing the Puff Limiter affect the Moose's warranty?
 
He would probably install it if you asked when ordering a pump.
He definitely stands behind his work.
Hypermax doesn't list it as working on the 6.2/6.5, but it should be the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
Husker6.5 said:
Stupid question, but I assume the Puff Limiter (the picture of the instructions referred to 6.9/7.3 IP's) will bolt on and function with our 6.5 DB2 pumps and that you already checked with Hypermax about that?
Click to expand...

Husker6.5 said:
Another stupid question. Couldn't they have installed it when you bought the Moose from them? Does your installing the Puff Limiter affect the Moose's warranty?
Click to expand...

79jasper said:
He would probably install it if you asked when ordering a pump.
He definitely stands behind his work.
Hypermax doesn't list it as working on the 6.2/6.5, but it should be the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So interestingly, while I was talking to Joel about some other stuff he said, "Something else I just remembered that I wanted to mention. The puff limiter is designed for the Ford DB2. We have used them on GM applications with one note. The cold start solenoid terminal connector will foul your throttle shaft. This will leave you with two options: Delete the cold start solenoid and just use a nut and bolt with the supplied insulator to block it off. With the extra fuel provided I think you will warm up sufficiently without the extra advance. If you go this route be sure to use lock tite on the hardware to prevent it vibrating loose. The other option would be to cut the end off of the cold start solenoid terminal and shorten your attachments accordingly and perhaps clearance the throttle shaft slightly to make room."

I'm glad he mentioned that because I definitely had clearance issues between the cold advance solenoid and the throttle arm. It would be super tough to make it clear the throttle arm so I went with the deletion route. I installed a Phillips head screw with the head facing out to try to gain as much clearance as possible. I also installed Red Loctite on the threads so that nut will NOT come off. During test fit I found that the arm was still rubbing the screw head so I used a dremel to grind some clearance into the head. Even then I had to bend the throttle arm away from the pump to get final clearance! Getting that taken care of took a bit of time. Then I started looking at the clearance of the aneroid to the intake and the barb was pretty tight to the plenum. It's a super small thread on that (1/16" NPT?) so there was no way I was finding an elbow last night. So I trimmed the end of the fitting just past the barb. Unfortunately I only got a "before" pic and not an "after" pic, but I think you can picture what I did. That gained me about 1/8". It's a tight fit but it doesn't kink and since the hose is under pressure and not vacuum that will help keep the hose open.

I had to take the intercooler, AC compressor, coolant crossover and fast idle solenoid off to get access to the pump, so in all the job took about 2.5 hours to complete. I neglected to do the initial setup that Hypermax recommends which is: turn the aneroid in until it starts lowering idle, then back it out 1 turn.

So despite that, here are my initial impressions: I can still make a pretty good cloud if I tromp on it before boost comes on. However just going up hills in a high gear it is much more civilized. Also, it has turned the throttle into a much more linear progression. Before, not much off idle I could really pull strong, now I have to give it more throttle to feel that. That makes sense to me since the puff limiter holds back the fuel valve until boost is up. I did another 0-70-ish run just going around the block. This time I had my brother and a more or less full tank of fuel in the truck, so about 400 pounds more? My butt dyno said it was slower, but that's just my butt dyno. I'll do some actual testing to see how it really compares once I have it fully set. If it operates how designed, it should not affect overall performance, in fact if anything it should improve it because it doesn't flood the engine with fuel at the initial hit of the throttle. I am going to email Joel and get his thoughts on the travel of the aneroid versus how much the governor arm travels and make sure that it couldn't actually restrict overall travel. That's just a side note, I have no verification at all that it actually is slower, it was one hit with more weight based on a butt dyno!

The other thing I might try is adding a mechanical, click-type wastegate actuator to the supply line. It seems that if it limited fuel until about 8-10 psi instead of the 5-ish psi that it limits it to right now that maybe I'd puff less. They're cheap enough (like $20) that it would probably be a worthwhile experiment.

Yes, Conestoga absolutely would have installed the Puff Limiter. In fact, that is typically their preference, but he didn't object to me installing it myself since I showed I had some mechanical capability. I wanted to install it myself for the purposes of testing and to save some money up front. I wasn't 100% sure that I would need it when I conceived this project, so I didn't want to spend the extra money. But if I did need it, I wanted to see a before and after comparison of how it reacted and share that. That's why I didn't have them install it. Once I get it tweaked I will do a full comparison for you guys. If I don't lose any full output power, yet it reduces light throttle smoke like it has so far, then I would call it a success, but it by no means appears to kill all smoke. However, in talking with Joel yesterday about some other stuff he mentioned this: The Stanadyne starting fuel spec for a DB2 is 35cc/1000 strokes. Most of their Street level pumps make 50-70cc/1000 strokes. The standard Omega makes 80-100cc/1000 strokes of starting fuel. MY PUMP makes 130cc/1000 strokes at 150 (yes, 1 5 0) rpm! So even if the aneroid is limiting the fueling some, this pump is still making a lot of fuel.

The reason that topic came up is that I'm getting some misfiring and gray smoke at start up, sometimes worse than others. I thought I had some air intrusion into my fuel system, but he's wondering if it's just the engine trying to clean up the extra fuel from cranking. I'm playing around with glow plug time to see if I can affect it. I also installed some good clear tubing on the return last night so I can start keeping track of any air bubbles.

I will continue to fine tune and document this week. It will be a long process because I want to change just one thing at a time, but I will do it since it will be the most meaningful and helpful. BUT, it's killing me to not mess with the trans tuning - I REALLY want to start raising my shift points!!

More soon.

hole to throttle arm.jpg Screw in Cover.jpg Screw in Cover 2.jpg Screw after Dremel.jpg Screw to Throttle Arm.jpg Inside Pump.jpg Barb Before.jpg Hose to Intake.jpg
 
Haha! 130 @ 150- pretty fun, huh? I was amazed at how low they can idle when Scott built my race pumps years ago. Gives it that big cam gasser idle effect was my thought back then. Once everything is dialed in you won't be able to resist seeing how low you idle. Not really practicle, but that makes it more fun.

With all that fuel it won't need anything on the cold start. That's the effect is extra fuel- so you have that covered.

I wish I had known about these, (if they even existed back then?) I would have kept my fuel dumper pump for on road use. I just couldn't get it to not leave a small trail.

Vacuum regulation makes sense to me.
 
Will L. said:
Haha! 130 @ 150- pretty fun, huh? I was amazed at how low they can idle when Scott built my race pumps years ago. Gives it that big cam gasser idle effect was my thought back then. Once everything is dialed in you won't be able to resist seeing how low you idle. Not really practicle, but that makes it more fun.

With all that fuel it won't need anything on the cold start. That's the effect is extra fuel- so you have that covered.

I wish I had known about these, (if they even existed back then?) I would have kept my fuel dumper pump for on road use. I just couldn't get it to not leave a small trail.

Vacuum regulation makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
It is crazy all the fuel it makes. And yup, the thing still fires right off without the advance solenoid. I'll start fine-tuning the aneroid and see where it takes me.
 
NVW said:
I don't know about these pumps but they were around back in the 70's. My JD tractors have them.
Click to expand...

I might have even had people tell me, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes. Like daytime, night time, any other time...
 
So far I've only done a little tuning with the aneroid. Per the Hypermax instructions I started screwing the aneroid in until it affected idle - that was about 3-3/4 turns. Then I turned it out 1 turn as a starting point. It made no smoke at take off, but man was it a dog!!! It wouldn't get above 7psi and I don't know if the truck has ever been that slow, even stock. So then I turned it out 1 more turn, so it was 2 turns out. It was better, but would still only make about 14psi of boost. I couldn't believe how much it was affecting the truck! This time it made a little smoke but I definitely wasn't getting full fuel. THEN as I was starting to turn around to go back home I realized that I had disconnected the hose connecting the aneroid to the intake to make the turning of the diaphragm easier and I had forgotten to hook it up! So it was never getting the signal to release! I hooked the hose back up and tried some more runs. It was smokier than I'd like at part throttle, but full throttle fueling seemed like it was back to normal. So I backed it down to 1-1/2 turns out. This time it was a little less smoky at part throttle, but it did seem to be affecting full throttle fueling a little by my butt dyno. So for right now I have it back at the 2 turn setting. I really think to optimize this thing and make it work the way I want I am going to have to play with the boost set point that the aneroid starts activating, and I will have to do that with a manual boost controller. I'm hoping to be able to reach a point where full throttle fueling isn't affected, but my part throttle fueling is cleaner - too many times I'm dumping black smoke when driving through town in a "spirited fashion". It would have been nice to have purchased the pump with the aneroid already installed so Joel could have found the point at which it didn't affect full fueling - that way I would have a point that I knew I would be ok and under that I would not.

In other news, my stumbling/white smoke problem has gotten worse. I've talked to Joel about it and he thinks I need a little more timing advance. He thinks that it's worse now when the engine's cold due to the removal of the cold advance solenoid during the aneroid installation. I have a Ferret timing adapter on order that I should have Friday, so I can start playing with timing and see what effect it has on my startup loading-up issue and overall performance. I will try to document changes with video as much as possible.
 
Keep in mind timing changes will also effect your part throttle smoke. Advancing your timing in many instances will increase your part throttle smoke because it causes your egt's to cool and makes it take longer to get the turbo spooling.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
Keep in mind timing changes will also effect your part throttle smoke. Advancing your timing in many instances will increase your part throttle smoke because it causes your egt's to cool and makes it take longer to get the turbo spooling.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the tip. This is the first time I've played with diesel timing. At this point I would trade some part throttle smoke for the misfiring and white smoke I'm getting at start up. Also this is the first stab at it, if it doesn't work then I'll talk to Conestoga to see if there's anything they can do to reduce the starting fuel. It looks like I'll be working on it a bit to find the balance that works best for me. Regardless, it will be good to put a number to what my timing actually is so I have a baseline to tune from, plus I can quantify future adjustments and give myself a way to get back to a particular setting.
 
The other thing I can do too, is if I find that some advance does clean up start-up, but it's too much for part throttle, then I will explore making the cold advance solenoid work with the aneroid.
 
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