Emmott's Initiation

[Will L.]

I was showing that as the type of tool.
Plenty of companies make them, and in metric also.
I just searched “metric ratcheting flare nut wrench” and this set popped up...
SK is a solid tool, there are others that are good as well. I only referred to SK because they make the most popular set.

Proto - 10Piece Metric Ratcheting Flare Nut Wrench Set (J3800M) - - Amazon.com

Proto - 10Piece Metric Ratcheting Flare Nut Wrench Set (J3800M) - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[Will L.]

I have been thinking about this, keep coming back to it as what js the best option.
I am thinking about getting a couple safety wire drilling jigs.

Not sure if I would drill the arp nut and stud, or do the stover, and corner drill the stover.
I always say no kill like overkill, and am just flippin paranoid about this. I almost never get to a stuck point where I can’t make a decision in anything but this has me stuck. I just had it in my mind the arp guy would point the direction or say absolutely yes or no.

anyways- looking at something like this, haven’t searched which brand to buy as I will likely never need this again. I still own a set of aircraft safety wire pliers, know how, but haven’t had to do any in years. If someone doesn’t know how to safety wire properly, there is specific ways to do it- and it makes all the difference. There is a good video I ran across if anyone want to watch the boringness but good info. Most at the racetrack do it wrong. Found the video after a local guy did a bunch wrong from different video he saw.

Item 35-0064

Tools, Hardware & Accessories: Fasteners & Hardware

Tools, Hardware & Accessories

www.vintagecb750.com

Or this

Nut Safety Wire drill Jig

Arsenal Racing is your source for world class hi-performance racing parts - accessories and apparel for motocross motorcycles - street motorcycles - racing go-karts and Scooters. Also many other cool products including military, tactical, outdoor clothing and gear.

www.arsenalracing.com

 

[MrMarty51]

I like the 35 0064 set more than the other one from Arsenal.
It appears, from the picture that the bit is not drilling straight through a flat, instead it is at an angle which if that is the case could be quite problematic. I think.

 

[Will L.]

I have used other brands of similar tools, But they were high dollar. The arsenal one is to drill through just the corner of the nut.
If I just wire the stover nut, that is hot to do it without going through the stud. Doing just the corner isn’t in this video, but is done like same way as a single pass. .032 is correct size for any part in a vehicle.

 

[Will L.]

@emmott
The more I am going through this, corner drilling the 12 point arp nuts seem to be the answer.
The 12mm nuts, that is an option. They make 2 different nuts and the one with thicker body appears to have enough room to do a corner drill and use lock wire (safety wire) to secure the nuts from being able to back off.
I will take a look at the 12mm and 10 mm nuts I have now from ARP. I am not sure if they have 10mm nuts with enough space for it.

Using the second stover nuts on top is not going to hold better than safety wire will, and as you shown the stud isn’t long enough anyways.

 

[emmott]

The picture I sent previously was from a bad angle - the stover lock nuts were only on finger tight, not fully threaded.
Got the studs torqued down now and I just checked to see if there are enough threads for stover lock nuts. It's really close.
But my M10 studs are at an angle in a custom tapped hole so you could have more or less thread available than me with stock block & caps.
Could thread them on crimped end first to be sure there is contact where its needed?

 

[emmott]

Hey @Will L., according to ARP's catalogue, the collar diameter and head height vary with socket sizes.
Could changing either of those dimensions result in a different clamping force vs torque? Would you need to do another load cell test if the total thread contact area or washer/collar contact area are changing? *Edit-if using the same washers as before, using a collar that is the same size or larger would not change the contact area, head height may be the only thing that matters.

Below figure is from ARP's 2021 catalogue of M10-1.25 and M12-1.25 nuts.


My nuts from Quadstar's kit are 300-8344 & 300-8308

 

[Will L.]

On the stover IF USED, Just cut off the first third or yes, install upside down.
The stover nuts would sure be easier to drill for safety wire. But tightening down the stover onto the arp nut without altering torque would be hard.

As to the smaller or larger footprint of the different arp nut- yes and no. Yes the psi at the interface between arp nut and arp washer would change. But No the applied clamp force on the threads would not change, neither would the clamp load on the main caps.

I called ARP about safety wire, (and could tell the guy was used to faa terms because he said lock wire not safety wire) anyways, verified what I said above in regards to the torque spec should stay the same as clamp force doesn’t alter once same size washer is in use dispersing the load the same. He/ they are used to questions re: wire security and gave me some home work to do. So I will be looking into the numbers he gave me and let y’all know within a day (or two latest) after calling him back to go over those. Hopefully by lunchtime tomorrow I will post.

 

[Will L.]

Oh yeah, EDM has been done through the flange of the nut on 10mm and is acceptable. Be said conventional drilling is ok too, just difficult. So it seems to me, I will not be using stover nuts- just lock wire through the arp nuts.

Also, I was wondering about your torque spec on the splayed studs. What is it and who set it? If you could get full torque arp recommends for the stud that would be awesome. Thats where i had failure of splayed with the 6.5 back in the 90’s- but it was all guessing back then.

 

[emmott]

I went with 26ft-lbs. I think your gm equivalent load cell test for M10 studs on regular caps was 23.5 so I just bumped it up 10%. That was the highest I felt comfortable doing vs risk of cracking the block.

DSG recommended 48 Ft-lbs, but I'm sure that what's caused the 2" crack along the stock outer bolt hole on my block. So I did not want to go with that spec.

 

[Will L.]

So there are a couple options to use a larger socket size head on the nuts for each that will allow plenty of room for drilling to use safety wire. Going to these makes both the 10mm & 12mm use a 16mm socket size.

These are the individual part numbers, better prices through larger quantity saves a few pennies here and there.
10mm nut. These are $5.55 each
301-8312 collar OD .815
301-8315 collar OD .810
So they need a different washer.
10mm washer choice
200-8590 with OD .850 and thickness .115
200-8706 with OD .810 and thickness .155

12mm choices
301-8360 (best imo because is half the cost, and we use our existing washers)
301-8318 OD .925
301-8309 OD .925
I didn’t look up which washers because it is all added expense for no gain, but listed so everything is here for future reference.

So, today I will be ordering some more nuts and washers from ARP. (800) 826-3045 to save time of folks looking it up.
Gonna order a couple extra for drilling errors, and the quest will be on for EDM drilling in my area or maybe using an older 12pt wrench to make into a drilling jig. 1/16 is normal drill bit size, but can be slightly smaller iirc. Going to make some calls to verify, since we aren’t doing hard to reach or blind wiring, the hole size being hard to get wire through is no big deal imo.

 

[emmott]

Does drilling the hole make the studs single use only, since the holes may not line up if the studs get used on another rebuild?
Also, why do the washers need to change, does it matter if the flange nut has a different collar diameter than the washer?

 

[Will L.]

No, there is a misunderstanding. The holes do NOT go through the stud.
Look at the hole in this picture. This is 1 hole.
i will draw up how this will work with the two 12 point nuts on each side of the main cap real quick

 

[Will L.]

So this would be the two nuts close to each other. You would have a total of ten set up like this.
The studs do not get modified in any way.

 

[Will L.]

Oh, I forgot- yes the flat washer has to be as big or bigger than the nut (or head of a bolt).

 

[emmott]

Thanks for the info Will. Cool concept!

 

[emmott]

I special ordered fasteners with the larger head size. In the meantime I'm using the ARP nuts I have to assemble the block and check clearances. I'll swap em out once my final nuts and tooling arrive.

 

[Will L.]

Looking at the jig tools for drilling- none seem to be for 12 pt nuts. So I am convinced planning on trying a wrench/ socket and grind the edge flat to get the drillbit to be the exact angle I want. Then weld a washer to one side of it so a bolt can screw in and hold the nut steady.

 

[emmott]

I picked up Nord-Lock washers from my local industrial supplier. They are for designed to maintain clamping under severe vibration.
A 16mm or 5/8" ratcheting flare nut wrench would be used to secure the ARP nut as the stover lock nut is tightened. The Nord-Lock washer would go between the 16mm ARP nut head and the stover lock nut.


Just an option I was considering

 

[Will L.]

Nope. Pretend you weld the arp nut to the stover nut. Same problem exists. Not tightening the nut to the point it actually puts “X” clamp load on the nut threads to the stud threads in tension against the item it is holding (main cap in this case) it still has potential to loosen. Welded together nuts or using nord lock as means of binding them together- the friction between nut and stud just isn’t there.

I called ARP during lunch break and spoke to a guy in the mfr side to verify rockwell hardness to verify what I was thinking, because I was wanting to replace arp flat washers with nordlocks, and so is a certain gubmint agency here in Nv that is hitting me up with 6.5 solution requests on this same issue of main studs. THESE 2, NOT ALL arp are 34-38 Rockwell and nordlocks are 48c - so yes the nuts are softer than the nuts and main caps which is what is required for nordlocks to work.

But ARP did testing with nordlocks and they couldn’t withstand the extra high torque for some of the uses arp was wanting amd failed do to too high Rockwell. Anyways... they would in theory work with us using lowered torque amounts, but we would need to do more load cell testing to determine that spec.

But ARP has been getting calls repeatedly for main studs and con rod bolt options- so I am sending him the sheet of clamp load testing I did along with a little other info, and he is going to try pushing R&D on this again with the angle to push it to GEP. They would be a big enough buyer to shove a full test and determine our desired spec, maybe even reduced shank fastners to do it exactly right! 1 in a million shot- but worth trying. Won’t happen in time for this build but maybe you upgrade later, right? Nothing but time and money! Haha.

My order was for 1 ea 301-8352; 1 ea 200-8592; 2ea 301-8400. Basically washer differece is just slightly smaller od and thickness. Figured might want the room if I stumble up a girdle is why. Once I do the drilling and can wire up as example, I will update the thread I did on main studs.