And the GMTDScanner Says

[Big T]

"Does TSM = Timing Stepper Motor? Regardless, this has never occurred during Time Set. Nothing ever changes or happens to the engine during Time Set."


There is a connector right on the top of the stepper motor, is it connected?

Yes, that is exactly the part I was observing when I had my wife rev the engine. Yes the plug is connected. It was never disconnected. No reason to. Nothing moves, nor is there anything on that part that I can see that can move. Remember, I was only observing the black cylinder as that is all that I can see. If you're speaking of that stuff underneath it, I can't see that.

 

[buddy]

To observe the stepper motor you would need to watch it on the scanner, see that as RPM increases the timing does too.

In the dashboard area of the scanner you can select any engine parameter to observe from the drop down menus. Select the Engine temperature to make sure it is reading correctly. The idle RPMs should be around 600.

 

[Big T]

Here's the data snapshot. After finishing this, I smelt coolant. Stepped out of the truck and heard coolant dumping. Lower hose had blown off the water pump. Put it back on, but hose clamp was not there. Clamp had broken and slid down the hose. Lovely. I'm done for the day.

What does that Actual injection pump timing of 41.71 degrees vs Actual Injection Timing of 19 and Desired of 8.7 mean?

Snapshot created 12/20/2009 9:40:48 AM
__________________________________________________________________
ENGINE SENSORS
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Engine run time: 00:10:26
Boost pressure (MAP): 14.6 PSI
Desired EGR: 15.23 PSI
Desired idle: 562 RPM
EGR pressure: 14.58 PSI
EGR duty cycle: 0 %
Engine coolant temp: 185.4 F°
Engine speed: 562 RPM
Glow plug relay feedback: 0.1 Volts
Glow plug voltage: 0.1 Volts
Ignition voltage: 13.8 Volts
Wastegate duty cycle: 67.2 %

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INFORMATION SENSORS
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PCM Calibration ID: 6885
Current DTCs: 2
Accel. ped. pos. 1: 0.71 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 2: 4.29 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 3: 4.02 Volts
Barometric pressure (BARO): 13.72 PSI
Battery voltage: 13.8 Volts
Fuel temperature: 79.8 F°
Intake air temp: 79.5 F°
Throttle position: 0 %
Turbo boost (Calculated): 0.88 PSI
Voltage reference sensor: 1.4 Volts

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INJECTION PUMP SENSORS
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Actual injection pump timing: 41.71 Deg °
Cam reference missed: 0 Counts
Crank reference missed: 0 Counts
Fuel calibration: 115 Counts
Fuel rate: 7.81 mm³
Fuel rate - Cruise: 0 mm³
Fuel rate - Idle: 7.81 mm³
Fuel rate - Maximum transient: 35.62 mm³
Fuel rate - Throttle requested: 0 mm³
Injection pulse width: 1.95 ms
Injection timing - Measured: 19 Deg °
Injection timing - Desired: 8.7 Deg °
TDC offset: 0 Deg °

__________________________________________________________________
TRANSMISSION SENSORS
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3-2 PWM solenoid duty cycle: 0 %
Cruise target speed: 0 MPH
Cruise speed error: 0 MPH
Current gear of transmission: 1 Gear
Current torque signal pressure: 25 PSI
Current transmission ratio: 1:4 Ratio
Error between desired and actual shift times for latest 1-2 upshift: 0.42 Sec
Error between desired and actual shift times for latest 2-3 upshift: 0 Sec
Force motor (PCS) - Duty cycle: 40.2 %
Force motor (PCS) - Feedback current: 0.84 Amps
Force motor (PCS) - Reference current: 0.84 Amps
Time of latest 1-2 upshift: 0 Sec
Time of latest 2-3 upshift: 0 Sec
TCC PWM solenoid duty cycle: 0 %
TCC slippage: -68 RPM
Transmission input speed: 630 RPM
Transmission output speed: 0 RPM
Transmission temperature: 112.6 F°
Turbine speed: 630 RPM
Vehicle speed: 0 MPH

 

[Big T]

To observe the stepper motor you would need to watch it on the scanner, see that as RPM increases the timing does too.

In the dashboard area of the scanner you can select any engine parameter to observe from the drop down menus. Select the Engine temperature to make sure it is reading correctly. The idle RPMs should be around 600.

Timing does increase on the scanner as the RPM is increased.

 

[buddy]

The "actual injection pump timing" is related to the physical position of the IP and crankshaft timing. That needs to be closer to 30 degrees at warm idle.

"Desired timing" is what the PCM wants the camshaft timing to be. Cam timing is half that of crank timing.

"Measured timing" is what the OS is seeing as cam timing, the PCM commands the stepper motor to make the measured and desired the same.

In the Timeset screen, "actual timing" is the same thing as "measured timing", related to the cam.

This is how you need to line up the IP with the timing mark on the timing cover. the corner of the IP bracket needs line up with the timing mark. In the picture it is advanced too much.

 

[Big T]

The "actual injection pump timing" is related to the physical position of the IP and crankshaft timing. That needs to be closer to 30 degrees at warm idle.

"Desired timing" is what the PCM wants the camshaft timing to be. Cam timing is half that of crank timing.

"Measured timing" is what the OS is seeing as cam timing, the PCM commands the stepper motor to make the measured and desired the same.

In the Timeset screen, "actual timing" is the same thing as "measured timing", related to the cam.

This is how you need to line up the IP with the timing mark on the timing cover. the corner of the IP bracket needs line up with the timing mark. In the picture it is advanced too much.
View attachment 10901

We are not focusing on the same marks. Here's another photo that shows it better:

In the photo you marked up, the red line off to the right is at the end of the IP flange that butts up against the timing cover housing. The red line is right at the base of a bar code sticker that I pulled up to make my scribe marks. My scribe mark is right at the chisel mark in the timing cover over to the left about 1/2" in the photo above. That is where the IP was positioned before I removed the timing cover the first time.

In your photo are you suggesting that I move the red line on the IP to the left lining up with the black mark? If so, that is exactly what I did yesterday though I could not rotate it over as far as your marks are suggesting. That movement brought the Actual Timing down to 13 degrees, but the engine really ran like crap and I still could not do a Timing Set, nor a TDCO Learn.

 

[Big T]

The "actual injection pump timing" is related to the physical position of the IP and crankshaft timing. That needs to be closer to 30 degrees at warm idle.

"Desired timing" is what the PCM wants the camshaft timing to be. Cam timing is half that of crank timing.

"Measured timing" is what the OS is seeing as cam timing, the PCM commands the stepper motor to make the measured and desired the same.

In the Timeset screen, "actual timing" is the same thing as "measured timing", related to the cam.

This is how you need to line up the IP with the timing mark on the timing cover. the corner of the IP bracket needs line up with the timing mark. In the picture it is advanced too much.
View attachment 10901

We are not focusing on the same marks. Here's another photo that shows it better:

Here's the one above that I've marked up:

I was lining up my scribe mark on the IP (yellow line to the left) with the chisel mark (red line below the yellow) on the timing cover. I've inserted your red line into the photo off to the left. It's at the end of the base of the IP flange that butts up against the timing cover. In the photo you marked, the red line is right at the base of a bar code stick I pulled up to make my scribe marks. I inserted a white line at the dot hole in the timing cover which is where I think you placed your black line.

In your photo are you suggesting that I move the red line on the IP over to the left lining up with the black line? If so, that is exactly what I did yesterday though I could not rotate it over as far as your marks are suggesting. That movement brought the Actual Timing down to 13 degrees, but the engine really ran like crap and I still could not do a Timing Set, nor a TDCO Learn.

 

[buddy]

You'll need to turn the IP to this position, using the timing mark/wedge as the reference, regardless of where it was before you disconnected it.

It may have been wrong before you started. Or it might be a tooth off on the timing gear.

This picture is mine right now at basically 3.8 degrees cam timing. The pump is tough to turn, which is why you need a tool to go into the two pump adjustment holes on the IP flange.

 

[Big T]

Yeah yours is without the dual crossover in the way. I'd have a hard time photographing the wedge, let alone using it as a reference. I see a scribe mark off to the left on yours, which tells me someone was doing something over there.

I made a tool using flat bar and two bolts. I bent it went pulling the IP over to the passenger side. It buts up against the crossover when going to the driver's side. I need a better tool.

Are you saying that it needs to move over more towards the driver's side. Your gap between the IP flange and the timing wedge looks closer. My problem is that any straight tool will butt up against the coolant housing when moving in that direction. Also, when moving in that direction, the Actual Timing grows higher.

 

[gman]

have you checked to see that your injecter pump gear is not 180 out it may be firing on num 6 piston did you bring top dead piston to num 1 piston when doing timing chain or num 6 piston top dead center that would cause crazy timing advance they will run 180 out and burn up some glow plugs seen it before

 

[NVW]

Shouldn't be able to time 180* out. The IP can only be installed in one position on the gear.

 

[buddy]

BigT, you need to rotate the pump towards the passenger side. make the edge of the flange closer to the point of the timing wedge. Lining up with the timing wedge will put you at a TDCO of like -0.5.

I currently have mine advanced slightly to TDCO of -0.88, by moving towards drivers side, which is why there is a gap between the IP flange edge and the timing line.

That scribe on my timing cover was a reference for me for about where that rounded curve is, for when my TDCO will be -1.94. I mess with my timing every other week or so to test stuff.

lining up the crank and cam gears actually puts you at the correct TDC at the right cylinder. It can only be correct when crank gear mark is at 12 and cam gear mark is at 6. And then rotating 1 full turn on crank puts crank at 12, cam at 12, and install IP gear at 6, which is correct for timing.

 

[Big T]

BigT, you need to rotate the pump towards the passenger side. make the edge of the flange closer to the point of the timing wedge. Lining up with the timing wedge will put you at a TDCO of like -0.5.

I currently have mine advanced slightly to TDCO of -0.88, by moving towards drivers side, which is why there is a gap between the IP flange edge and the timing line.

That scribe on my timing cover was a reference for me for about where that rounded curve is, for when my TDCO will be -1.94. I mess with my timing every other week or so to test stuff.

lining up the crank and cam gears actually puts you at the correct TDC at the right cylinder. It can only be correct when crank gear mark is at 12 and cam gear mark is at 6. And then rotating 1 full turn on crank puts crank at 12, cam at 12, and install IP gear at 6, which is correct for timing.

Starting with your last paragraph, crank mark was at 12 and cam mark at 6 when chain was installed. I then rotated the crank until cam gear mark was at 12, though not certain it was one full turn of the crank as I was just focused on getting the cam gear mark to 12. That is what Todd at Heath told me to do. Then cam timing gear was installed and the mark was at 12. Then IP timing gear was installed such that the mark lined up with the lower cam gear.

When you say "make the edge of the flange closer to the point of the timing wedge" and I look at your last marked up photo, it looks like the timing wedge is off to the driver's side and the flange is to the left of it. Based on that, to move the flange closer to the timing wedge, I would have to move it to the driver's side.

Anyhow, I'm off on business travel through Thursday. I will revisit this next weekend. Need some more coolant and a new hose clamp before I can fiddle with this some more.

 

[buddy]

Yours needs to go towards passenger side about a quarter inch. Meaning while standing in front of the engine looking at it, the pump needs to go counterclockwise.

These are the edges that need to line up


Now look at yours compared to mine, the red line is the edge of the IP flange, the black line is the timing wedge point. They are close to the same picture angle.

 

[fonecop1]

have you checked to see that your injecter pump gear is not 180 out it may be firing on num 6 piston did you bring top dead piston to num 1 piston when doing timing chain or num 6 piston top dead center that would cause crazy timing advance they will run 180 out and burn up some glow plugs seen it before

I've been following this thread closely as someday I am going to have to change my timing chain. I know the cam gear only goes on one way, but it sounds like if after installing the cam and crank gears and the crank was rotated more than once it would create what GMAN is talking about. If that turns out to be the case you may be able to fix it without tearing the whole thing down because you can pull the oil filler neck to get to the pump gear bolts. You may be able to take the gear loose from the pump and back the pump up enough to clear the dowel on the pump and then rotate the crank until the cam gear makes one revolution? BIGT I feel for you, hang in there.

 

[Big T]

I moved the IP to both extremes that my tool will allow.

The current position is all the way towards the drivers side where my tool then butts up against the coolant housing. At that point, in Time Set the Actual is 19 degrees and Desired is 8.7. Prior to this I had the IP all the way over to the passenger side (about a 1/4" counter clockwise from the current position) and the Actual was at 13 degrees and desired was 8.5. Keep in mind I bent the tool to get it to that point AND it was snapping back towards the driver's side as I was tightening the IP nut down. Point being, I went as far as I could go (with my current tool) and the Actual was never close to the 3.5 degrees that you are saying I need to hit. So, are you saying I need to go further than that to the passenger side?

fonecop1, unless it's absolutely necessary, I would not change uut your timing chain. Todd at Heath told me (after the fact) that GM specs allow for up to 5/8" play in the chaing and that they routinely re-use the original chain on engines with 250K miles on them. Seeing all the hassle I've gone through when I was told it was a piece of cake, I would strongly recommend against it.

 

[buddy]

I guess if I had done the math, you need to move the IP 0.6". If at 19 degrees cam. 1mm = 1 cam degree = 2 crank degrees. So You need to drop 15.5 degrees which would actually be 15.5mm/25.4mm/in = 0.61 inches.

It can be tricky holding the pump in place while tightening the nut. After its been in place and run it doesnt sping back to the driver side as much.

The most Ive ever had mine out to was like 11 degrees base timing.

 

[gman]

i understand you can line up all timing marks but where was the cam? on num 1 piston or num 6 piston powerstroke did you bring top dead center no 1 then looked at where the injecter pump was 6 or 12 o clock BEFORE changing the timing chain you need to make sure you was on num 1 piston power stroke or was the cam moved after install to correctly set injecter timing. if you didnt look were the injecter pump mark was before replacing the timing chain it may be 180 out pull num 1 piston glow plug and take the front cover off and have some one bump the motor over and put your finger over glow plug hole and see if where it blows your finger out. thats num i piston powerstroke as it passes top dead center mark .now look where the injecter pump mark is .is it at 6 or 12 oclock that will tell you if its 180 out you need to know if this is correct . before doing anything else

 

[Big T]

This thread describes exactly what is happening with my engine with the exception that mine is not stalling during Time Set:

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=2316&highlight=Timing+Cover+Marks&page=2

The solution at the end was that his CPS was replaced after being installed 90 or 180 off (probably 180 as the CPS has flat sides that ride between the crank sprocket AND the fit in the holding bracket can only be altered 180). I had the CPS out completely during the first removal of the timing cover. Left it in the timing cover the second time. I had no damage to the plastic on the CPS, but I did not realize they were position sensitive. Could this be my problem? If so, how do I determine the correct position for the CPS?

 

[bison]

I think the flats on CPS run paralel to the crank shaft