Water/Methanol Injection. Need some answers

[6.5L]

I have put some serious thought into water/methanol injection, and I think I am gonna go for it. I read here before that injecting methanol is not safe because it could wipe out my pre-cups due to a lower flashpoint? I think that is what it was. I was recently reading a diesel power magazine and the article was on how much methanol is too much and in the article it was explaining why it worked. It said that the water injected with the methanol actually prevents the methanol from detonating too early. So now I am thinking as long as I run a safe mix (window washer fluid is around 30% I think) that I would still be safe since the water would keep the meth from pre-detonating and smoking my pre-cups. Am I right to think this or is there something I am missing entirely? Any advice is welcome

 

[buddy]

On the 6.5 I would run an absolute max of 20% ratio.

The dilution helps change the autoignition temperature of the methanol and cool the air to delay ignition. If you run too high of percentage it could detonate before the fuel ignites.

With any chemical in air, there is a percentage that is not combustable.

I run a 5 gallon tank, with 1 gallon of 99% methanol washer fluid and 4 gallons of water mix.

 

[WarWagon]

The biggest thing you have to worry about is freezing the water or whatever mix you decide on in your climate.

Here is a good read. Part is made for the DI Duramax so this link is for discussion only. He has a nice table that lists the rod bending, glow plug ruining ether to the safer to use methyl alcohol.
http://killerbeeperformance.com/induction/chemical-cooling/

IMO pre-ignition won't bother the pre-cups. It will simply melt down a piston. This is from the failed injector that ruined the suburban engine when it started firing early and/or peeing fuel. I bought it with the ruined engine and my avatar pic is from the rod beating holes in the cylinder after the piston locked up at tdc and shattered the skirt.

I have been giving serious thought to trying the ifog on a 6.5, but, time to mess with it is scarce at the moment.

 

[6.5L]

Ok, I can see where 20% would be the mix I would use. And if the water kept the methanol from pre-igniting, then would I still have to worry about melting a piston? Wouldn't the more complete burn of the fuel actually lower EGT's along with the injection of the water? And I wouldnt have to worry about freezing it, I would never run it during the winter. I only tow during the summer. I am not talking about a constant use of water/methanol. Just when I am towing and EGT's start to get a little high and I need that extra power and cooling. I plan to have it on a toggle switch (on/off) for ultimate control. I plan on buying an electronic controller as well for when I am using it. Any more idea's are welcome

 

[buddy]

Yes, WMI will help you, increase power and lower EGTs. Even water alone helps, but I think it makes sense to use methanol in it, just not too much.

You need to have it on a pressure switch, for simplicity of an on and off switch system, I would have a pressure switch on at 4psi boost or higher. Any lower and too much water can flood it. Water injection at idle could make it stall. And you dont want too big of nozzles, the smaller the nozzle the better the atomization. I would recommend two 300cc nozzles and a 100psi pump.

Do you have a system picked out? Or making it? Just dont mount the pressure switch on the engine and best out of the engine bay because they dont like heat and vibration.

 

[6.5L]

I am gonna have have a controller that I just have on a on/off switch. I don't want it working all the time. Maybe you can just turn the controller off. That would be even more convenient to just shut the system off that way. And I know not to run it without boost. The system I looked at would be one of Snow Performance's Boost Controller MPG-Max fr the 6.5L or the Stage I 6.5L Boost Controller. Both seem like decent setups and I am not sure the exact differences between the two but when it comes time if I get it, I will have to call and ask. I think the MPG-Max injects the mixture constantly over your RPM range and the Stage I has a progressive system that starts to inject at a certain PSI then goes to max injection at another PSI. Something like that

 

[turbonator]

With our DYI system, it comes on over 8psi (adjustable 5-15psi). We run a single .625 (????) cc nozzle into the hat. Did not try methanol enough to say if there is any additional boost in power, but have been very happy with the effects of the H2O.....from what we have read (for the most part), the washer solution sold here in Quebec is 50% meth......also will keep below 25% concentration when we try it. Know of one guy that went as high as 75%, but had pieces exit the side of his block. When we opened the motor up for inspection, was the cleanest we had ever seen.

 

[6.5L]

I think I would go with the progressive Stage I system. I think it would be more effective. How has just straight water affected it?

 

[635]

You will also have to decide on the size of your water tank and how big a space you may want to take up. How much boost you have will decide on how much water you use. I have a 32 gallon tank, 10x12x63, and when at crusing speeds I use about 1 gallon of water to 1 gallon of diesel.

4 pounds of boost in the minimum to use water injection, mine is set to come on at 6 pounds of boost. Like Buddy had mentioned, don't use WMI on idle.

Get a good setup, not something you decide to make work or you could be in trouble.

My dually should be up and running in a little while. A very good 6.2 with new Clevite main and rod bearing and a set of 6.5 heads.

 

[turbonator]

We designed and made our own set-up, have had no ill effects. To date we have not put a lot of meth through it. We will try some over the next few days, and plan to dyno straight water and then a water/meth mix to compare power curve. Our system was put together for less than $200.00, set to 8psi. At cruising speeds our non-gated Holset spools much lower than that, 3-5psi, IIRC. So we do not use a lot of water, only at higher boost, and then predominately for the of control EGT's. As was stated, upon opening the motor (pulled heads and pan, before re-installation), it was very clean inside (spotless) no carbon build-up at all. The brand name systems all seem to be of good quality, we just felt our money could be better utilized elsewhere......J&J.

 

[6.5L]

I was pricing out some kits today. I am either going to go with Snow Performance Progressive Control for $555.00 or a DevilsOwn Progressive Control for $420.00. I don't see the point in over-paying for something but I don't have a problem spending money for quality either. The Snow Performance comes with all hardware, the controller, and a 140psi pump I think, with two nozzles said to "cover a wide range of horsepower". The DevilsOwn kit comes with all hardware, the controller, a 250psi pump with EPDM seals (who knows what that is) and three nozzles, a DO5, DO10, and DO14 (again, I have no idea). Has anybody heard of this DevilsOwn kit or is using one? I would really like some feedback. It seems like a sweet deal but I don't want to skip on quality for price with my truck. PLEASE GIVE ADVICE!

 

[Monarkman]

There are people running the Devils Own kits and I am sure they will be along shortly. Just wanted to mention another place that has progressive controllers. Cooling Mist has some nice systems and some of their controllers fit in a standard gauge pod.

 

[6.5L]

I want one to reference boost that I can just drill and tap into the intake. I don't want an electronic sender for it or is there no way around that? Do they make an electronic sender for boost that comes with the kit or do I have to make something for it? I was thinking it might not work on a mechanical motor. I don't want it EGT referenced

 

[Jeep80915]

That Snow Performance pump is a 300 psi max rated pump! (plus there a CO company so I'm glad to support them!)
EPDM is an inert material. So, it's resistant to Methanol. Snow's pump has EPDM seals, actually has double seals to handle the pressure. I'm extremely happy with my MPG Max kit for my Duramax! The Devil's Own kit I had before was poo. After looking at the seals and other parts, I'm hard pressed to believe it was EPDM...definite wear there. Check this out: http://www.snowperformance.net/product_images/magazine_article-pdf-117.pdf

 

[Jeep80915]

oh, also...Methanol doesn't pre-ignite under any condition. Diesel burns at 820-840F, Methanol at 890F. It's actually prolonging ignition delay. You can run 50/50 with no problems.

 

[6.5L]

Thank you for the input. I was probably going to go with the Snow kit but wasn't sure. Now I am positive I am. I like Snow Performance.

 

[Jeep80915]

I went through Andy when I called. Good service!

 

[6.5L]

Thank you

 

[Edzzed]

I was pricing out some kits today. I am either going to go with Snow Performance Progressive Control for $555.00 or a DevilsOwn Progressive Control for $420.00. I don't see the point in over-paying for something but I don't have a problem spending money for quality either. The Snow Performance comes with all hardware, the controller, and a 140psi pump I think, with two nozzles said to "cover a wide range of horsepower". The DevilsOwn kit comes with all hardware, the controller, a 250psi pump with EPDM seals (who knows what that is) and three nozzles, a DO5, DO10, and DO14 (again, I have no idea). Has anybody heard of this DevilsOwn kit or is using one? I would really like some feedback. It seems like a sweet deal but I don't want to skip on quality for price with my truck. PLEASE GIVE ADVICE!

I have the devilsown. It works great for helping to keep egt's in check. It won't stop them from going through the roof but I can sure keep my foot hard on the throttle alot longer in the hills than without it. I would advise if you buy any kit, just use a toggle switch - relay to power the pump. I have the progressive voltage based system which gets a signal from the maf sensor. It's the green wire in the pic. I do find that spray comes on when I don't want it to. I cannot see boost based being much different, Egt's based may be better. I wired mine up so I can stop power to the pump. I have a 5 and 14 gph dual nozzles and can go through 5 gallons of water fairly quickly. In under 300 miles of road and only using it during hills. I am tempted to get http://www.ebay.ca/itm/110622756039?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 since it can be used to turn on the pump when egt's hit a user set temp. If you wire it up make absolutely sure it will not get power to the pump until the engine is running. I don't know if taking a signal off the ops will work or not but if you turn on spray when the engine is not running hydrolock wouldn't be good. Ed

 

[buddy]

oh, also...Methanol doesn't pre-ignite under any condition. Diesel burns at 820-840F, Methanol at 890F. It's actually prolonging ignition delay. You can run 50/50 with no problems.

Its not only autoignition you have to worry about, its both that and ignition from the diesel fuel that starts burning before TDC. The diesel combustion is slower at first, but will set the methanol off right away. And, your air temp will reach 890 before the diesel fuel even gets injected. The ignition delay is how long it takes for the actual fuel to absorb the heat. The methanol is in there from the start of compression absorbing heat. When boosted past 15psi air temps could be over 2000F by TDC. And where the fuel might not get injected until about 35 degrees before TDC, the methanol is already there when it passes 1000F before 60 degrees before TDC. Recipe for disaster when running too high percentage to where it actually is concentrated enough to autoignite in high compression and moderate boost scenarios.

Maybe if you have a Dmax that has lower CR and higher boost to where cylinder temps are lower and air mass greater (meth concentration lower) you can run more meth.

The concentration of meth to air also depends on volume injected, so nozzle sizing and pressure matters. If you use a lot of volume then you dont want a lot of meth in it.