Turbo comparisons on a test rig

[Burning oil]

WW, link not working.

 

[Paveltolz]

For the benefit of the readers. Lets put this into perspective.

Phoenix, AZ is 1,117 Feet in elevation. (340M)
Payson, AZ is 4,921 Feet in elevation. (1,500M)
My old route continued on past "The Rim" at 7,000 feet. (2133M) This area between Payson and the rim is where the scuffed and cracked piston burned through. It is also where we bagged our Elk (and the GMC truck).

The hill I am thinking of takes a couple good climbs to get there. I recall it is a 10% grade for at least 6 miles.
Shown here:
http://www.aaroads.com/west/arizona087/az-087_n_seq_229_climb.jpg

My leg gets tired holding WOT after the cruise control kicks out at 16 MPH below the set point. Wedging an umbrella between the seat and floored throttle will not exceeded the speed limit towing.

The above is one of many brutal climbs along the route we had that ended (turned around) in Springerville.

Oh, THAT climb...it will put a bit of stress on your ride for certain...Then there's Salt River Canyon....

 

[Sunshine]

Sarcasm Alert
:joke: Try flying....

:reporter: News Flash, Phoenix AZ, having only recently paved its streets, found the money to build an airport that will accept large airplanes. Flights arrive daily and they have hired extra cowboys to keep the livestock from wandering on to the runway. Even the Indians are cooperating and have ceased shooting arrows at passing aircraft.

Im on the boat heading for sweden after a trip to Italy with internet problems... anyway if to you need any " HELP " please let me know. I´ll be in touch

 

[635]

^^^lol! have you guys contacted any of the diesel magazines? i know they are usually looking for 6.5 stuff and Ian supposedly had an article going for something like this or maybe it was a pcm comparison

Magazine coverage is good but the article should be written after the facts have been proven. Case in point "Ultimate 6.2L rebuild" in MaxxTorque, good reading and brought out a lot of questions. And a few horsepower 'Quest' articles later.

MaxxTorque, Diesel Power and a few other magazines were willing to spend the money for a long day of testing on a chassis dyno and then nothing, it was my engine that was built and later was to be tested. It was pcm's, turbos, and different liquids being tested. When things go wrong before testing and an article is written in advance and then nothing else is written, hmmm.

The nothing part gets real expensive!!

The nothing part has put a big hole in my pocket.

A few on here know what happened and it will stay that way for a few more weeks.

 

[Big T]

I have a killer mountain grade with killer temps we can use. It is the 10% grade to Payson, AZ that goes on for better than a mile with lots of good grades in between here and the hill. I have sent a couple 6.5's to the scrapyard attempting to make this climb.

None of the wimpy Heath area hills. :hihi: Even more hazard is the Elk in the area - not 'love tap' deers.

Having recently done 4th of July Pass in Northern Idaho...well let's just say it was a walk in the park, albeit very pretty.:hihi:

Schedule permitting, I could fly out or car pool up with the Buddy. I'm interested in this.

 

[tanman_2006]

I would be up for car pooling with anyone coming from the East/SE side of the states. Most people will come pretty close to where I am either on the north or south sides of me.

 

[WarWagon]

What date works best for a get together on this? I have open weekends Friday through Sunday. Weekend of Oct 22, Oct 29th, or push into November? Please post up dates you guys like!

The 22nd is almost out as I am still recovering from bad fuel and do not know what else was ruined by it.

We are in the "cool" weather now up there, but, this is the weather I have a good baseline from the 1993.

 

[turbonator]

What date works best for a get together on this? I have open weekends Friday through Sunday. Weekend of Oct 22, Oct 29th, or push into November? Please post up dates you guys like!

The 22nd is almost out as I am still recovering from bad fuel and do not know what else was ruined by it.

We are in the "cool" weather now up there, but, this is the weather I have a good baseline from the 1993.

its kind of a moot point anyways, unless someone is going to buy and supply you guys with a CKO-40 (chinese knock-off hx-40) to test against the ATT and gmx turbos.... i dont think "the zombie" is going to show or communicate in this thread as i have heard he is banned from the site... and it is unlikely that slim or TD are going to buy one to have on hand....

 

[BoostN]

its kind of a moot point anyways, unless someone is going to buy and supply you guys with a CKO-40 (chinese knock-off hx-40) to test against the ATT and gmx turbos.... i dont think "the zombie" is going to show or communicate in this thread as i have heard he is banned from the site... and it is unlikely that slim or TD are going to buy one to have on hand....

His banned will be lifted the 13th.

 

[Paveltolz]

I'm headed out of town on my dime this month so Veteran's Day weekend, 11-13 November, works best for me.
I may have my friend's toy hauler to bring down. Will have to clear it with him as he's using it for temp storage while he house hunts.
I do have a GM-5 on the truck and an ATT in the box available for use if needs be.

 

[WarWagon]

its kind of a moot point anyways, unless someone is going to buy and supply you guys with a CKO-40 (chinese knock-off hx-40) to test against the ATT and gmx turbos.... i dont think "the zombie" is going to show or communicate in this thread as i have heard he is banned from the site... and it is unlikely that slim or TD are going to buy one to have on hand....

The "Mountain Grade" will always be there. We could get together for several different weekends if need be. This is an open invite if someone wants to bring their 6.5 with a different setup they are more than welcome to join in. I will invite him to join in or make a run at this hill. Hopefully ANYTHING is better than the GM3 on this pull!!! The track and other goals may have different results - and results and comparisons are what we are after.

 

[Turbine Doc]

I'm headed out of town on my dime this month so Veteran's Day weekend, 11-13 November, works best for me.
I may have my friend's toy hauler to bring down. Will have to clear it with him as he's using it for temp storage while he house hunts.
I do have a GM-5 on the truck and an ATT in the box available for use if needs be.

Paul, is that the best turbo to run a test with when trying to make a comparison, if I remember correctly that is the one that came off of Ted635's truck that Ian cobbed up the installation that had to be repaired shortly before he "voluntarily left" employment from Bills place to seek other career path.

Some of the repair required minor compressor & turbine wheel blending, not enough to make it unserviceable, but possibly enough from what was recently discovered in last batch of turbos that have caused an issue on a few trucks that clearance changes are netting less performance than what initial turbos are netting.

Run it just to see what it will do; same truck same hill same date for comparative atmospherics, same load etc. but don't forget if it is the same turbo it has a "history".

I really wish Bill/Todd had not been so involved with LSR at the time I sent him my original TDO-7 then Ian "misplaced it" so that it never got installed on one of Bills known entity trucks.

Of course having it rebuilt after the expanding foam I packed it in pushed past the plastic wrap and into turbo did not help the plan either :mad2::mad2::mad2: I bought that turbo twice once from Japan Auto Warehouse, and a 2nd time following the repair/rebuild to get all foam out of it that cost almost as much as the 1st purchase, when I goof up I goof up big .

Long way to go & short time to get there & back for me to participate, but I would love to do it.

Contrary to what some have posted elsewhere there has never been a effort to stop any discussions pro/con on ATT, only that when it happens it be objective and not emotion based replies, some folks tend to "ratchet jaw or go keyboard commando" or at least it reads that way and allowed to stand as matter of fact at some sites, hence my post in another thread if you feel need to go more personal than technical let's go to PM or better yet direct phone call as no vocal or personal tone to be felt via keyboard.

 

[Turbine Doc]

its kind of a moot point anyways, unless someone is going to buy and supply you guys with a CKO-40 (chinese knock-off hx-40) to test against the ATT and gmx turbos.... i dont think "the zombie" is going to show or communicate in this thread as i have heard he is banned from the site... and it is unlikely that slim or TD are going to buy one to have on hand....

Dennis is involved with some "legal stuff" right now with his vendor and some "other entities", but once the dust settles I think after that possibly Dennis would welcome a standardized test of original tow ATT, and another one with smaller housing design he is looking at/working with vendor to spec out to see if a better performance turbo combination can be had.

Now my legal discalimer: "This poster (TD/me) has never been monitarily involved with the ATT or compensated for opinions offered or assistance rendered with design & testing of ATT turbos I can/will swear and testify in court if need be to prove this bogus claim.

My participation has been a matter of curiosity/quest for an improvement of my truck, and assisting a true friend not any differently than any other Diesel enthusiast that posts on forums of assistance/support given to friends that also delve into similar persuits, any implication/reference that I am being compensated in any way is 100% incorrect and a made up untruth (a lie), actually posting of such statements puts poster on par with the infamous Steak Sauce company when they make similar accusations when anyone supports anothers product over his."

 

[Paveltolz]

Paul, is that the best turbo to run a test with when trying to make a comparison, if I remember correctly that is the one that came off of Ted635's truck that Ian cobbed up the installation that had to be repaired shortly before he "voluntarily left" employment from Bills place to seek other career path.

Some of the repair required minor compressor & turbine wheel blending, not enough to make it unserviceable, but possibly enough from what was recently discovered in last batch of turbos that have caused an issue on a few trucks that clearance changes are netting less performance than what initial turbos are netting.

EDITED 12:00 for clarity and added info

Yes and no... it is the same Turbo. I spoke with Dennis at length about it last weekend as I wanted to follow up on some background information in addition to what all the repairs were.
He's pretty positive the honing to the housing was minimal but to be sure, we talked about replacing the whole compressor and blades with a known good unit to give it another run. I was out of town last week so need to followup on him about it.

Dennis, if I've misunderstood or my verbiage is off, let me know and I'll try to get it corrected on a re-write, or just chime in, I'm good with correction.

Tim, I'm going to be on the road next week with Ted (follow up to some business I asked you about earlier) and would be able to swing by, say Thursday, if you're going to be around.

I think the turbo is fine, the truck smoked down the road (two meanings) regardless of tunes but I rarely drive over 70 and even if I do, it is for a limited amount of time. My initial WOW wore off as I found I had to adjust driving style to keep the smoke down and even though I tried not too, I was keeping the mosquito population at bay; wasn't demonstrating any advocacy for "clean diesel" and that bothered me a lot. To repeat, I'm at 4500' and while that may be a lot of it, there's only one way to rule out either the altitude or the possibility there may be another factor. That's why Dennis was floating the idea of trying a new housing and impeller assembly. I'm just grateful he's willing to trust my opinion as unbiased.
As for the test, with the economy tune I'm running, I'm envisioning my participation as a parts and elbow grease supplier.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Alas Paul I'm working nights out of town next week, though you are going near by where I am working, 19:00 to 07:00 is my shift so depending what time of day you'll be coming thru the area we may be able to hook up.

Dennis & I discussed the housing swap plan good idea IMO, highest altititude on mine thus far has been 3100' towing a 8x12 enclosed trailer loaded to about 3000# at Fancy Gap Pass http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I77_VA_Fancy_Gap_Photos.html not many big pulls East of the MS but a good workout for a 6.5, Dennis moved a couple of tractors MI to NC that same pass a few years back about 31K combined weight IIRC.

No smoke on mine nor Dennis, and this was before the ATT dedicated tunes we are running, Bill & I discussed a mpg tune from him for mine then on 2nd thought possibly after seeing running ATT with yours decided to not go there just yet with mine as he had some other ideas to with the tune keeping performance-low smoke & mpg kind of hard to fit all 3 into same blend for the tune but I'm patient .

I run for most part 70-75 mph no smoke there either except for a healthy puff when I go WOT. I'm hoping to be out of here by end of next week, possibly we can get together on the return trip and I can have you run the video camera while I make some runs.

While the altitude you operate at is higher than mine, there are also other ATT operators of ATT your side of the divide pulling without smoke, when you get back I'd like to see if we can nail this down to have a clear idea of the combination of factors that make a few vehicles more prone to smoke vs experiences thus far on the majority of the population of users that don't smoke, we can talk more though when you get over this way hopefully.

 

[turbonator]

Turbo Comparisons.....

We, would like to be able to come for this testing, but it is not feasible for us.

Have been discussing the possibility of preparing "our kit", to go to a spring dyno days in Ottawa in 2012. We have 3 different turbos now and waiting on a fourth. If comes to fruition, we will have our work cut out for us swapping and tuning.

Also hope to have a "bolt-on center mount system" ready this winter (Pugg was a success but too large for Gmt-400).

The best comparisons should be had from stock to stock turbos with no mods to the turbo. This however is not always possible as when we receive and or rebuild a turbo, we blend any casting flaws, and enjoy polishing the interiors as best we can.:agreed:

The variables from truck to truck (fuel, intake, exhaust, gearing...etc.) are as different as the drivers behind the wheels. Almost all of us have done mods to our trucks. This eliminates the "true bolt-on" aspect of any additional pieces, as each affects the others.

Jeff and I both desire to see your comparison come to pass, not only for the continued tech that is shared afterwards, but also the coming together of the community is essential, we believe, to furthering the development and refining of this platform.

Best to you all, Jim & Jeff. :thumbsup::hello:

 

[Paveltolz]

Alas Paul I'm working nights out of town next week, though you are going near by where I am working, 19:00 to 07:00 is my shift so depending what time of day you'll be coming thru the area we may be able to hook up. We'll give you a call when we're more certain of ETA's. Perhaps in the afternoon after you've had a some sleep?

Dennis & I discussed the housing swap plan good idea IMO, highest altititude on mine thus far has been 3100' towing a 8x12 enclosed trailer loaded to about 3000# at Fancy Gap Pass http://www.roadstothefuture.com/I77_VA_Fancy_Gap_Photos.html not many big pulls East of the MS but a good workout for a 6.5, Dennis moved a couple of tractors MI to NC that same pass a few years back about 31K combined weight IIRC.

No smoke on mine nor Dennis, and this was before the ATT dedicated tunes we are running, Bill & I discussed a mpg tune from him for mine then on 2nd thought possibly after seeing running ATT with yours decided to not go there just yet with mine as he had some other ideas to with the tune keeping performance-low smoke & mpg kind of hard to fit all 3 into same blend for the tune but I'm patient .

I run for most part 70-75 mph no smoke there either except for a healthy puff when I go WOT. Healthy Puff would be understandable, I get that with the GM-5, ATT is a little more productive
Good luck on the Ga visit I hope you get that issue resolved, tough dealing far away from a vendor especially when they become "silent",That is the frustrating point

I'm hoping to be out of here by end of next week, possibly we can get together on the return trip and I can have you run the video camera while I make some runs. I'll be bringing some photo gear so I'll throw in the GoPro camera I picked up. I would enjoy a ride in your rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to return the favor as we're scrimping and for the MPG, taking the Passat. At least we'll effectively double the MPG and see improvements in RT=D

While the altitude you operate at is higher than mine, there are also other ATT operators of ATT your side of the divide pulling without smoke, when you get back I'd like to see if we can nail this down to have a clear idea of the combination of factors that make a few vehicles more prone to smoke vs experiences thus far on the majority of the population of users that don't smoke, we can talk more though when you get over this way hopefully. I need to do a compression check for peace of mind too. I'm still wondering what the "cost" might have been for that abstract "oil on sheet-rock" art deco job I did on the garage wall and if that might have a play in things

We're looking at Thursday or Friday at being in your area. PM Sent