Towing long and heavy with a 6.5? Read on

[Acesneights1]

Gonna tow heavy a couple hundred miles now & then with a marginal 6.5? --- Have at it!
Gonna run long, heavy and hard day after day with a marginal 6.5? --- Better think about that some more...

Yeah but that is not what happened. Unless I read it wrong a bad inj burned a hole in his piston. When I suggested the inj be tested and where did they come from I was scoffed at. Later on he decided to test them and low an behold a few wern't so good. Another point from the OP, you do not NEED to spend 600$ on new injs. I believe BK has rebuilt and balanced many peoples sets....Just gotta get decent remans from someone reputable. I've been burned by Ebay good deals and I only get mine redone locally through a builder I trust. If he had used different injs or not gotten a bad one perhaps he'd be 10k richer. It didn't sound to me like it died of old age. I'd go out on a limb here and say probably 85% of us here use remans. Some of us have gotten Duds myself included. A new one could go to. If he hadn't tested or replaced the inj from the first engine, I'd betcha that new Optimizer would have a hole in it too. But hey what do I know, just a dangerous forum reader, not an expert.

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

opcorn:....

 

[WarWagon]

Quite frankly the shortblock is the least of my concerns. :skep: Optimizer or 1986 6.2 does not matter to me. I have enough other problems that the shortblock has not caused me problems.

Every 6.5 engine I have sent to the scrapyard (3) had something else cause it's demise. Bad fan clutch and 6 blade fan overheated it and scuffed a piston. Bad injector melted the #8 piston down. Plain old wear took out the rings and bearings - block was good, had been rebuilt before, except for a fixable head bolthole crack. Only 1 of the blocks had mains cracks bad enough to say it could have failed soon and it had 177K on it.

I tow hard 10% grades and heavy at max GVWR of truck in extreme temperatures 115+ about every week day. I have bent the hitch with loads that were too heavy and not balanced right. I have turned up the pump and turbo to get the most out of the surplus 6.2 engine and have 30K miles doing so. This is 2750 miles towing a week! AKA I put more than factory stress on the block especially for a N/A 6.2 and I hold the throttle to the floor for extended time to make the grades.

The other things are what is killing me on the truck. Alternators that come apart in the middle of nowhere, garbage rebuilt injectors that took me a year to track down, AC system failures on extreme heat days, electrical issues, constant exchange of lifetime warranty parts... :mad2: The little cr@p adds up to about $1,000 a month in parts. Then there is the upgrades to the exhaust and cooling system. The labor costs me time - I could not pay a shop to do this. The poor quality parts no matter what kind I get is enough to make you want to burn the thing. The fun part is doing work on this truck and getting it back on the road for the next day! That is haul, find issues, get parts, let the truck cool while I sleep, and install parts on cold truck, then it hits the road. Did I mention repairs to the cargo trailer? - lights, wiring, springs, brakes, bolts that fall out of the sheet metal, tires, tires, and more Chinese garbage trailer tires!

So if the block cracks out it is gonna cost me $1200. If an injector fails or I drop a bolt down the intake it is $1200 for a used 6.2 engine guaranteed to run and proven tough enough to get some more miles out of it.

I do not see any benefit to getting an Optimizer for a pickup. It does not have any more power. So I will still have DOT hours of service limiting me over a different truck because of slow going on hill pulls. The 6.2 will take the truck to 400K miles from a 200K replacement. Maybe it gets 100K and you are at 300K on the clock with a blown engine. $1200 is easy to justify for another used engine, but, 300K what condition is the truck in and what are other parts costing you to keep it rolling?

 

[Acesneights1]

Quite frankly the shortblock is the least of my concerns. :skep: Optimizer or 1986 6.2 does not matter to me. I have enough other problems that the shortblock has not caused me problems.

Every 6.5 engine I have sent to the scrapyard (3) had something else cause it's demise. Bad fan clutch and 6 blade fan overheated it and scuffed a piston. Bad injector melted the #8 piston down. Plain old wear took out the rings and bearings - block was good, had been rebuilt before, except for a fixable head bolthole crack. Only 1 of the blocks had mains cracks bad enough to say it could have failed soon and it had 177K on it.

I tow hard 10% grades and heavy at max GVWR of truck in extreme temperatures 115+ about every week day. I have bent the hitch with loads that were too heavy and not balanced right. I have turned up the pump and turbo to get the most out of the surplus 6.2 engine and have 30K miles doing so. This is 2750 miles towing a week! AKA I put more than factory stress on the block especially for a N/A 6.2 and I hold the throttle to the floor for extended time to make the grades.

The other things are what is killing me on the truck. Alternators that come apart in the middle of nowhere, garbage rebuilt injectors that took me a year to track down, AC system failures on extreme heat days, electrical issues, constant exchange of lifetime warranty parts... :mad2: The little cr@p adds up to about $1,000 a month in parts. Then there is the upgrades to the exhaust and cooling system. The labor costs me time - I could not pay a shop to do this. The poor quality parts no matter what kind I get is enough to make you want to burn the thing. The fun part is doing work on this truck and getting it back on the road for the next day! That is haul, find issues, get parts, let the truck cool while I sleep, and install parts on cold truck, then it hits the road. Did I mention repairs to the cargo trailer? - lights, wiring, springs, brakes, bolts that fall out of the sheet metal, tires, tires, and more Chinese garbage trailer tires!

So if the block cracks out it is gonna cost me $1200. If an injector fails or I drop a bolt down the intake it is $1200 for a used 6.2 engine guaranteed to run and proven tough enough to get some more miles out of it.

I do not see any benefit to getting an Optimizer for a pickup. It does not have any more power. So I will still have DOT hours of service limiting me over a different truck because of slow going on hill pulls. The 6.2 will take the truck to 400K miles from a 200K replacement. Maybe it gets 100K and you are at 300K on the clock with a blown engine. $1200 is easy to justify for another used engine, but, 300K what condition is the truck in and what are other parts costing you to keep it rolling?

I concur especially about the Chinese garbage tires. Been there, Done that.

 

[iamdave0887]

Yeah but that is not what happened. Unless I read it wrong a bad inj burned a hole in his piston. When I suggested the inj be tested and where did they come from I was scoffed at. Later on he decided to test them and low an behold a few wern't so good. Another point from the OP, you do not NEED to spend 600$ on new injs. I believe BK has rebuilt and balanced many peoples sets....Just gotta get decent remans from someone reputable. I've been burned by Ebay good deals and I only get mine redone locally through a builder I trust. If he had used different injs or not gotten a bad one perhaps he'd be 10k richer. It didn't sound to me like it died of old age. I'd go out on a limb here and say probably 85% of us here use remans. Some of us have gotten Duds myself included. A new one could go to. If he hadn't tested or replaced the inj from the first engine, I'd betcha that new Optimizer would have a hole in it too. But hey what do I know, just a dangerous forum reader, not an expert.

I'm sorry but i agree with Kenny. Poor quality injectors probably ended that motors life. A new piston might have fixed it if one was avaliable.

I wouldn't spend $7K on an engine for either truck, if i even had the money to spend in the first place. That's coming from a guy who will not part with either truck until the keys are pried from my cold dead hands. I love my trucks.

I'm sorry things went the way they did BJ, but your suggestion of buying a 7,000 dollar engine being the only way to tow reliably is just downright insane. Perhaps if you weren't so worried about what was going to happen if you didn't get there on time, versus taking your time and letting the truck go at it's pace rather than yours you'd have another 10K in your pocket right now. Sorry but we all know pushing these engines makes them push back and throw the rotating assembly all over the highway in the worst cases. You pushed it too hard too fast, and it pushed back, and hard.

Why do i say this? Here's why. And no, this isn't directed at you, or anyone in particular.


I'm a mechanic, and i have to install inferior parts all the time for customers who think they got a great deal. 10% of them listen to me when i tell them to return the cheap parts and buy the good quality parts. They never have a problem with said good quality parts. The other 90% of them that don't listen and insist they want the "good deal" parts installed come back in the next few months, mad at me because the "good deal" part failed, when i told them before they installed it that it was going to fail. I hate that. It's not my, or anyone elses fault that your actions caused your misfortune. If the customer doesn't listen to my recommendation to install better quality parts then when the crap parts fail they'll see no mercy from me.

I've been in the same spot. Had a 1,100 mile round trip to make in one day, a few summers ago. Took the 96. Checked the carrier bearing before i left since it was starting to make a little noise and noticed a tiny bit of play. Said "i'll fix it once i get back". Ended up 130 miles from home on the return leg of the trip, stranded, with about $35-40 cash to my name at 11pm, with a blown carrier bearing and a driveshaft with a inch of slop between the inner and outer carrier bearing races.

I've been there and yes it sucks, but it was no ones fault but my own and i knew it right off the bat.

That optimizer wasn't broken in correctly either, and neither was the engine in my K-5. Less than 20K miles on my K-5's engine going by the main bearings/cylinder bores and it's got more blowby than the 200K mile engine in my pickup. There's a reason an engine must be properly broken in. He probably took years off the life of that optimizer. He'll know down the road, but it's already too late. Can't reverse damage done by improper break in.

Saying you didn't have time to properly break it in was,in my opinion, a poor decision given the money spent. I would've told whoever expected you to be there at a certain time "look my trucks engine blew on my way out there. I'm back on the road heading out there now and i'll be there but i'll be late as i have to break in my new $7,000 engine".

As far as Moneyslave injectors. Here's my story.

I put one set of MS injectors in a friends truck that i was rebuilding the top end on. 0 miles on the injectors and one stuck open not once but twice in 5 minutes. Right out of the box. Perhaps it was a fluke, perhaps not. Either way i won't recommend his injectors on the next 6.5 build i do.

 

[Acesneights1]

. Don’t go for rebuilts, just order up some new BOSCH ones from a reputable dealer. I used Heath, but any reputable dealer will do as long as they’re NEW BOSCH units.

New Bosch isn't necessarily a good thing. New GERMAN BOSCH is. New INDIA bosch is crap. Rebuilt Injs done by a reputable shop with new GERMAN BOSCH tips are better than new INDIA Bosch nozzles anyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Alot of sellers peddle "new Bosch" without specifying where they were made. Personally was lucky enough awhile back to secure some new German Bosch ones for my old Tahoe.

 

[iamdave0887]

New Bosch isn't necessarily a good thing. New GERMAN BOSCH is. New INDIA bosch is crap. Rebuilt Injs done by a reputable shop with new GERMAN BOSCH tips are better than new INDIA Bosch nozzles anyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Alot of sellers peddle "new Bosch" without specifying where they were made. Personally was lucky enough awhile back to secure some new German Bosch ones for my old Tahoe.

I"ve got Bosch India injectors in the K-5, and every so often i'll get a big black puff of soot under hard accel like an injector isn't spraying right. If i whack the throttle a few times it'll clear up, but it still bugs me since i know what a bad injector can and will do.

I've got a set of "made in USA" Bosch 6.2 longs here i'm going to have sent out and rebuilt at some point. Might send them to Accurate Diesel, not sure what i want to do or when at this point.

 

[Burning oil]

Send em to Barry. Redistribute the wealth :thumbsup:

 

[JiFaire]

Thanks for the response, Dave... it clearly gives your opinion, your rationale, and does so in a manner that doesn't offend anyone.
Precisely what I have been trying to find a way to do, for the past 2 days.

You see, this thread, although it has been described as a 'tech' thread, is still a lot of opinions. And opinions are like arseholes - everybody has one. Including me.

However, just because you HAVE one, doesn't mean you gotta BE one; sometimes, we can forget that little tidbit.

We don't treat each other like that around here. Just like I don't capriciously ban people.

So I'm going to leave this post without treating anybody badly ... because I don't think I have to, in order to get my point across.

 

[iamdave0887]

Send em to Barry. Redistribute the wealth :thumbsup:

I've got plenty of sets of injectors laying around, but judging by Barry's ever growing sig i don't think he needs more work. :hihi:

Although if i had the space and the funds i think Barry would have competition on the east coast.

 

[Acesneights1]

I don't believe Accurate rebuilds them in house......only IP's. He does exchange on injs....Take em to Metro in Agawam.

 

[nobby]

I've got plenty of sets of injectors laying around, but judging by Barry's ever growing sig i don't think he needs more work. :hihi:

Although if i had the space and the funds i think Barry would have competition on the east coast.

I've often pondered doing a few for the east coast clan having all the necessary items in my shop such as test pumps, lapping plates, powders etc it's just finding the time to do it and I'd need to get the shim's.

Re this thread as pointed out it is totally subjective and most of what I think has already been pointed out. My mind goes back to Orrum's post in a prior thread who commented about towing with a 6.5. My only extra thought as I alluded to after his post is that back in the UK I am used to towing with less OK and from a daily towing standpoint used to drive wrecking trucks with usually smaller plants, the trucks usually converted from something else that already had a good lifespan on it. As I also pointed out plenty of 6.5's out there long in the tooth working hard every day hauling big landscape trailers or whatever.

Thanks to all who posted definitely a topic that will get many opinions and in the end each to their own. Like I said before you have to do what makes you feel comfortable be it an optimizer, upgrade to a Cummfordmax or throw a few shackles at whatever you already have. A good point was made about the ancillaries letting you down and in my experience for engines in general this is more often the case. Engine I just rebuilt loss of coolant due to a bad heat exchanger = partially siezed pistons. For us injectors are a crucial item that will definitely raise their ugly head when working her hard. One of the unfortunate caveats of Aluminium pistons.

Me personally I take every day as it comes and make do with what I have, if it went belly up I'd no doubt take my chances with the cheaper rebuild options, I like the Burb platform for what I do workwise and sadly until GM diesels a burb again somewhat stuck with not really liking the excursion option.

Cheers
Nobby

 

[Acesneights1]

Thanks for the response, Dave... it clearly gives your opinion, your rationale, and does so in a manner that doesn't offend anyone.
Precisely what I have been trying to find a way to do, for the past 2 days.

You see, this thread, although it has been described as a 'tech' thread, is still a lot of opinions. And opinions are like arseholes - everybody has one. Including me.

However, just because you HAVE one, doesn't mean you gotta BE one; sometimes, we can forget that little tidbit.

We don't treat each other like that around here. Just like I don't capriciously ban people.

So I'm going to leave this post without treating anybody badly ... because I don't think I have to, in order to get my point across.

If you want to call me an ahole cause I don't buy this thread or the misinformation it supplied that's fine. But it was based on the OP 1 towing experience with a truck he owned for a short time and is biased. Suppose some newb comes along who just bought a 6.5, tried unsuccessfully towing with it and then ends up here(sound familiar ? It's how I ended up on DP years ago). Then finds that thread as it will stick out by the title alone. Now our proud new 6.5 owner is putting a for sale sign on his truck because most people would not spend that kind of money on an old truck and there is no reason to. Someone wants to spend for a new motor as a labor of love so be it but don't start a thread preaching it as gospel and that is the way any newb reading will take it.Guess what, that newb will probably dump the truck in defeat. Same with the comments about injs...way way off. If I gotta be the a'hole and speak up so be it. you sure as hell never had a problem correcting me in the past and I'm still here, I didn't go away in a hissy fit even though I sure felt like it the last few days. I have owned way more 6.5s than the original poster and towed with them for 5 years now and there is not much I have not seen or tried. Some of it worked and some was a blatant failure but I posted everything and let people draw there own conclusions of what works, not TELL people what they should do.
Bottom line line is the Op posted a thread on what we NEED to do based on one experience with a truck he didn't even own that long. I don't agree with that.
Let's recap the facts and only the facts:
He used "good deal injs of eBay". Until this trip his engine was in good order as far as we know.
He ran hard due to time constraints with alot of weight.
The truck started giving signs and he pushed on.
He blew the motor and never did an autopsy.....That in itself is unfathomable. If I was sitting there for 2 days while a new motor was being installed I would sure as hell take 5 mins and pop the head and see what happened before running outta there in a hurry with a 7k motor and recycled parts. The shop wasn't doing the job for free and I seriously doubt they would say no to letting him do it. What would have been more helpful to the 6.5 community would have been to do that, snap a quick pic and then later explain why quality injs are so important.....Sorry, not a Kool Aid drinker and I never was. If that comes off the wrong way sorry but I'm a Mick from NY.....

 

[Chief915]

If you want to call me an ahole cause I don't buy this thread or the misinformation it supplied that's fine.

If I gotta be the a'hole and speak up so be it. you sure as hell never had a problem correcting me in the past and I'm still here, I didn't go away in a hissy fit even though I sure felt like it the last few days.

If that comes off the wrong way sorry but I'm a Mick from NY.....

Kenny, To my understanding....which I admit is sometimes skewed or inaccurate.....

No one, including me, is calling you an a-hole or "ball buster" for sharing your opinions, sharing your advice/knowledge/experience/observations, or for disagreeing with another members advice/thoughts/recommendations. Sharing those things and providing different views, opinions, and advice are what makes this forum the best 6.5 forum there is.

I think JiFaire's comments, while probably directed at both of us, were speaking more toward your general attitude or "extra" non-helpful comments as opposed to your disagreement with GW's recommendations/advice on what NEEDS to be done to a 6.5 in order to tow with it.

Re-read posts #18, 29, 33, 41, and 53 for examples of what I am talking about. I dunno....maybe I am the only one that "sees" the problem here.

As far as your knowledge/recommendations/advice/experience, etc... I always look forward to it and have learned a lot from you and other members here at TTS...... After all, that's why we are all here right? None of us are as smart as all of us.... I read that somewhere one time.

Again, just my opinions......

 

[Crankme69]

PlEASE drop the drama

This is like taking me back 20 yrs ago to listen to my EX wife! Everything was soooo dramatic with her & still is

Opinions are always WELCOME in agreement or not...:agreed:

Drama is NEVER welcome :nonod:

Now lets all have a :grouphug:

 

[Chief915]

This is like taking me back 20 yrs ago to listen to my EX wife! Everything was soooo dramatic with her & still is

Opinions are always WELCOME in agreement or not...:agreed:

Drama is NEVER welcome :nonod:

Now lets all have a :grouphug:

Agreed..... Let's get back on track here.

Injectors

Class: Need

These are a CRITICALitem. A bad set will kill your pistons in very short order. Even a brand new optimizer or P400 longblock.

If your injectors have any more than 100,000 miles on them with a basic daily driver, replace them. Don’t go for rebuilts, just order up some new BOSCH ones from a reputable dealer. I used Heath, but any reputable dealer will do as long as they’re NEW BOSCH units.

I originally ordered a NOS set from eBay. While they were good in just daily driving, once I started hammering on them with serious towing they deteriorated rapidly.

Injectors are the silent killer for a 6.5……don’t cheap out, replace them often.

New Bosch isn't necessarily a good thing. New GERMAN BOSCH is. New INDIA bosch is crap. Rebuilt Injs done by a reputable shop with new GERMAN BOSCH tips are better than new INDIA Bosch nozzles anyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Alot of sellers peddle "new Bosch" without specifying where they were made. Personally was lucky enough awhile back to secure some new German Bosch ones for my old Tahoe.

He used "good deal injs of eBay". Until this trip his engine was in good order as far as we know.

Unless I read it wrong a bad inj burned a hole in his piston. Later on he decided to test them and low an behold a few wern't so good. Another point from the OP, you do not NEED to spend 600$ on new injs. I believe BK has rebuilt and balanced many peoples sets....Just gotta get decent remans from someone reputable. A new one could go too. If he hadn't tested or replaced the inj from the first engine, I'd betcha that new Optimizer would have a hole in it too.

The main point here is that Injectors are critical and will destroy your 6.5 without you even realizing what is going on until it's over.....

You're best off to stick with high quality injectors right from the start, like genuine German Bosch's...... from a reputable source. Is some random guy on ebay reputable?.....maybe, maybe not. Maybe you'll get lucky with those injectors.....but then again, what if you don't?

You get what you pay for..... and as we all know from dealing with the normal OPS, LP, injector, PMD, fan clutch, etc issues the cheaper version parts usually leads to more problems quickly.

No matter where you get the new injectors from or what they "look" like..... Take them somewhere and get them checked for pop pressure and spray pattern before you use them. I found a local stanadyne place that will check and set pop pressures to whatever I want for $10 an injector. Pretty cheap insurance when you think about it.

If you don't have time or cash to at least CHECK new injectors before you put them in......Odds are you won't have time or cash to change your engine on down the road either. Something to think about.

 

[Acesneights1]

You are one of the "ball busters" in my opinion, but not the only one.

.

Did I miss something here ??

 

[Acesneights1]

You see, this thread, although it has been described as a 'tech' thread,(by me) is still a lot of opinions. And opinions are like arseholes - everybody has one. Including me.

However, just because you HAVE one, doesn't mean you gotta BE one; sometimes, we can forget that little tidbit.

So who is being referred to ? Atleast I have not resorted to name calling....

 

[Chief915]

So who is being referred to ? Atleast I have not resorted to name calling....

:rolleyes5:

Well..... so much for getting back on track....

 

[Acesneights1]

Agreed..... Let's get back on track here.










The main point here is that Injectors are critical and will destroy your 6.5 without you even realizing what is going on until it's over.....

You're best off to stick with high quality injectors right from the start, like genuine German Bosch's...... from a reputable source. Is some random guy on ebay reputable?.....maybe, maybe not. Maybe you'll get lucky with those injectors.....but then again, what if you don't?

You get what you pay for..... and as we all know from dealing with the normal OPS, LP, injector, PMD, fan clutch, etc issues the cheaper version parts usually leads to more problems quickly.

No matter where you get the new injectors from or what they "look" like..... Take them somewhere and get them checked for pop pressure and spray pattern before you use them. I found a local stanadyne place that will check and set pop pressures to whatever I want for $10 an injector. Pretty cheap insurance when you think about it.

If you don't have time or cash to at least CHECK new injectors before you put them in......Odds are you won't have time or cash to change your engine on down the road either. Something to think about.

100% agree. I have bought from reputable and still got bad ones so now I go locally where I can personally express my dismay... I got the so called Marine Injs that came with the dead motor in my 93. I believe they came from Walt so you KNOW I'm testing those before they go back in and they look brand new and ran fine enough to snap the crank.