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Towing long and heavy with a 6.5? Read on

great white said:
Why do I even bother.....

:rolleyes5:
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I thought it was a good read. Others do have valid points about throwing in used military engines and running cheap. If and when mine blows in the '99 Suburban, I'm throwing in a P 400. I've looked at my comps and a Duraburb would be $30K. An F350 dually with a 6.0 that's had no problems would be $18K, but rest assured it would probably have a catastrophic failure once I bought it. New tow vehicle with DPF'd diesels will be $50K+. Although I can easily pay cash for that, I won't and don't. Not for a vehicle that gets used only on the weekends.

I don't care about Bluebook. I'll run my '99 into trash. That's why I love it. Insurance? No one's going to steal it. I haven't hit anyone yet. If someone hits me, I'll get some coin and buy back my P 400 and maybe the tranny for a fraction of their true value and start over.

For now, it's a cheap tower.
 
$7000 for a brand new GEP engine, I would consider it. It's not what the truck is worth, it's what the truck is going to cost to replace it. So you put $7000 in a truck and drive it for another 6 years. That's less than a $100 a month. A new truck is going to cost you a lot more than that, and you'll still have maintenance. I have towed a 9000 lb. toyhauler to Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. Grand Canyon trip was flawless. Yellowstone I had PMD problems, but Heath took care of it quickly. My buddies Powerstroke had his turbo take a crap on the Yellowstone trip. That was a $1000. Have seen newer Fords and Dodges on the side of the road with blown up transmission. It can happen to all of them. Another Friend had a 6.0 F250 and 50% of the time when he would take a trip he was at the dealer for at least a day getting something fixed. Got rid of the truck before 40K miles. Stuff was covered under warranty, but who cares when half of your trips are spent getting repairs. Knock on wood I have been lucky. Other than the PMD problem, I have had a tire blow out and an alternator go out while I was traveling. Normally newer is better, but not always.
 
I think BJ has every right to tell it like it is.

Conviction and execution personified.

A truck is only as good as it's owner and only as robust as his/her wallet.
 
Acesneights1 said:
There is such a thing ?? :rof:
I stand corrected, I WOULD travel cross country in a 6.5TD if the 6.0 was my only other choice...:D
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Honestly, he's got 122K miles on it with no problems. He's done the exhaust mods, chipped it, gutted the soot trap, not sure if he's done the EGR block and the ARP studs. It's got the 6 spd manual. Set the chip on level 4 and it runs like a raped ape and gets 22 mpg towing light at 75 mph per the onboard computer. Very impressive. I know he'll want Bluebook for it because the 6 spd is hard to get. We'll see. Again, very impressive ride, but my luck would be it blowing head gaskets and having to do the whole pull the cab thing, which really is a dealer or qualified mech thing.
 
Thanks for the write-up BJ. I know you put a lot of thought into it. We all have opinions and different experiences, That is what this place is for, is to share those. I value your opinion and admire your craftsmanship. Thanks for what you give to this place.
 
Big T said:
Honestly, he's got 122K miles on it with no problems. He's done the exhaust mods, chipped it, gutted the soot trap, not sure if he's done the EGR block and the ARP studs. It's got the 6 spd manual. Set the chip on level 4 and it runs like a raped ape and gets 22 mpg towing light at 75 mph per the onboard computer. Very impressive. I know he'll want Bluebook for it because the 6 spd is hard to get. We'll see. Again, very impressive ride, but my luck would be it blowing head gaskets and having to do the whole pull the cab thing, which really is a dealer or qualified mech thing.
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My best friend had one, it has been through 2 HG jobs already with less than 110k.
 
Acesneights1 said:
I disagree with the need to spend 7000$ on a 15 yr old truck to do that so if some don't like that then by all means ban me. it seems this forum has lost alot of what it used to be IMHO. I was here from the start of it and over at DP long before some of the newbs came along so if that is the way things are tilted..I"LL move on but I was under the impression that is was an open forum and if you post something, you get others input, otherwise either don't post, have it locked or friggin ban me.
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I have a feeling this "rant" may have been aimed at me.... Not sure, but just in case it was, here is my thought. Take your own advice.... if you post something, you are going to get others input and opinions on what you posted. As far as I know it is an open forum... Wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if no one replied to someone else's post, right?

Acesneights1 said:
This is a thread IMHO where he is trying to re justify to the world that one MUST spend for a NEW Optimizer or don't tow.
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I disagree with BJ's opinion that buying a brand new GM 6.5 for $7,000 is the only way to have a reliable 6.5 long block just like you do Kenny. I said that in my post earlier. No argument from me on that point.


Acesneights1 said:
How many 6.5's have you owned and towed with ?? Betcha I have owned and towed with more....
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This is off topic.... but since you asked.

Personally owned...3 and towed with all 3. Got one sitting in the driveway right now.

However, as far as 6.5's that I have been around maintenance wise and seen/worked on a daily basis..... Probably about 100 total over the years and 11 right now as I type this.... So yea, I know just a little about them. I know right now you are sitting up in your chair saying BS...... Let me explain.

I am a US Army Maintenance Technician. I have worked on HMMWV's for the past 10 years and as you know, each and every HMMWV has a 6.5 under the hood (Since about 2003 or so, before that they had 6.2's.) From May 2007 - May 2008 alone I was responsible for the maintenance and repair of a fleet of 74 HMMWV's in Iraq. Now these HMMWV's don't normally "tow" anything, but the truck weighs about 10,000 lbs with all the armor on them, ammo, trunk full of "what if" equipment, etc. They are almost always either at idle or 3/4+ throttle and the average temp there was about 100-105 during the day.... just to give you a mental picture of how they are driven/treated.

So to sum it up....I personally don't have thousands of posts on a discussion forum.... Nor have I been here since "the beginning".... Heck, I may even be considered by most to be a "newb"....However, I do have a little 6.5 experience, especially on ones that operate in what you might consider "harsh" or "demanding" conditions.

Just my .02 cents. If the shoe fits, wear it.
 
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Acesneights1 said:
No, just annoyed that I'm the bad guy for disagreeing.
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I can see how my "ball busting" comment "looked like" it was aimed at you..... It was not aimed at you and only you. You are one of the "ball busters" in my opinion, but not the only one.

Go back and read GW's "east bound and down" thread starting at the point his engine blew up...page 3 I believe. You will see what I am talking about.
 
great white said:
Don’t go any less than a New 6500 Optimizer or a P400. Anything less is just a waste of time and money.




;)
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This is a 6.5 tech discussion section, not Off Topic. The statement above I have issue with...
I put a used motor in my 93 for about 1400$ and it runs fine. I would take it anywhere I would if I spent 7k .
You say I'm the ball buster, but the OP is implying that anyone who doesn't spend 7k on a new motor and tries to tow is a retard....Guess I'm one. Course my truck can be sold for more than I am into it for, it runs good and I like it.Not to mention I got a spare 5521 for free, a spare turbo with manifolds for free and a complete serp belt setup for my CUCV for free. Damn I'm dumb..
This has nothing to do with his misfortune.
BTW, all you guys who rebuilt your motors or bought Ted's motors...you all wasted your money too I guess.
Not to mention how many 6.xx motors went 300k+ miles that were not Optimisers or P400s.
 
On the Ford 6.0L topic: I am considering buying one for my DD truck, I put ~2000 miles a week on my 95 6.5 towing and just plain riding it hard and I just cant keep up on maintenence at the moment, just abunch of little things adding up making me think it is time to make it into an SAS Mud Truck :headbang: .

My family has owned 2 6.0L fords and I was impressed with both towing. One went through 3 sets of heads 3 Long Blocks and was eating injectors like candy (there are other parts in there too) and it got traded in with 185K HARD miles on it. The other treated nearly the same made 250K with one High press pump and a set of injectors, not bad if you ask me.

I think if they have a clean history and over 100K on them then they should be fine. I would however do EGR Delete, Straight pipe, chip, ARP's, and a few other mods to make it work better NO DIFFERENT THAN A 6.5! 6.0's are cheaper due to reputation than 7.3's. I am getting the 6.0 for $11K and it has been well cared for all service done by a dealer and receipts saved F350, SRW, EX cab, 9ft bale bed, 4x4, loaded lariot interior, and 140K miles. MOST comparable 99+ 7.3's are going for $10-16K, have more miles, weak(er) trannies, and have been driven hard just from the looks of them (already chipped, piped, 3rd owner, inside of the bed beat bad, interior screwed up).

6.5L Topic:
If, more likely when, my 95 needs a new engine it will likely get the best/P400 or new optimizer (its my baby). My farm trucks and 80's model projects will get rebuilt what ever I can find or Ted's pull outs depending on what I can find or the parts I have in hand. I am one of those people that like to prove people wrong and dont mind getting proven wrong myself from time to time. I would very much consider building a custom 6.x girdled, splayed, sleeved, lock and stitch, basically anything I think is needed just to say I DID IT.

A new engine is not the ONLY way but it is a great way to know exactly what you have and be fairly worry free. maybe thats what should have been said but then again it wasn't my post and we are ALL entitled to our opinions. The post has alot of great and valuable insite, Thank You for your input GW.

Tanner
 
I think one thing we all need to keep in mind is our personal opinions of truck ownership.

Some folks buy a truck, then run it till it is used up, then go get another truck, and dont get too attached. Some folks will buy a truck, and plan on owning the truck for the rest of their lives, and with that long of haul, there is bound to be some investment to keep it roadworthy, reliable, and overall a pleasure to drive. I have a feeling BJ is more of the second owner type, and doesnt want a newer truck, and is perfectly happy with what he has, and wants to make it last for a long time. For him the motor was the best choice for his situtation, needs, and wants, and his opinion is all that matters to him.

I personally love the GMT400 body style more than any other, and because of BJ and all his cool projects, ideas, writeups, modifications, etc, he has made it easier for all of us to make our GMT400s last for a few decades, and for that, I thank him.
 
I agree with GM Guy 100% I love this body style, I get attached to trucks that I really like, and I was already too deep into my truck to go backwards on it. However fortunately for myself, I'm only about $ 3,500 - $ 4,000 into my Ted's Optimizer and all the goodies I have into it.

I also do agree with BJ on the must have's for a dependable towing with 6.5's. I would never consider a "GM" casting block or heads to do much more then carry the weight of itself.
 
Lets pretend BJ did not have any problems before making this post. Again, I agree with BJ in this post if you are after a dependable tow rig that can do it daily.
As far as my suggesting a 12 Valve I meant it within the context of this new post and not for someone stranded on the road. If you have the time/tools...ect a 6bt or 4bt would be a very good option. You can actually rebuild those and have a great engine and for $2500 & up to whatever you can afford/want. For the same dollar the 12 valve gets alot more. (not the whole dodge truck, just the engine :D )
 
bk95td said:
Thanks for the write-up BJ. I know you put a lot of thought into it. We all have opinions and different experiences, That is what this place is for, is to share those. I value your opinion and admire your craftsmanship. Thanks for what you give to this place.
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I COULD NOT find a better point to make about this myself than what Barry did.

BJ just towed a zillion miles across the NA continent. Having the perspective of what he encountered gives him some unique insight into heavy towing day after hard day.
Gonna tow heavy a couple hundred miles now & then with a marginal 6.5? --- Have at it!
Gonna run long, heavy and hard day after day with a marginal 6.5? --- Better think about that some more...
 
tanman_2006 said:
I think if they have a clean history and over 100K on them then they should be fine. I would however do EGR Delete, Straight pipe, chip, ARP's, and a few other mods to make it work better NO DIFFERENT THAN A 6.5! 6.0's are cheaper due to reputation than 7.3's. I am getting the 6.0 for $11K and it has been well cared for all service done by a dealer and receipts saved F350, SRW, EX cab, 9ft bale bed, 4x4, loaded lariot interior, and 140K miles. MOST comparable 99+ 7.3's are going for $10-16K, have more miles, weak(er) trannies, and have been driven hard just from the looks of them (already chipped, piped, 3rd owner, inside of the bed beat bad, interior screwed up).
Tanner
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My buddies F350 dually is the Lariat edition super cab (4 door) with the long bed. Bluebook is $18K on it for an '03. He's going to want that because the 6 spd manuals are rare. Clean history.

Here's my issue. If it has the same head gaskets and studs as every other 6.0 diesel, how do you know the head gaskets aren't going to blow tomorrow. If it doesn't have the ARP studs, then I assume you have to remove the cab to do that job. I don't have the hoist to do that properly. How much does it cost to have someone do that? I'm betting the cost would easily be several thousand dollars.

Finally, the 6.0 had a 3 year production run and no other market than consumer. How robust is the aftermarket parts business for these engines with that short of a production run and a terrible history?

Once I considered all that, I nixed the purchase unless he comes back with some ridiculously cheap price like $11K. But for that price, he'd just keep it.

Anyway, sorry for the threadjack.

Back to topic:

What's the difference between the Optimizer and the P400? Forged crank?

What's a Ted's Optimizer?

How do I stuff a 24 valve 6BT Cummins into a Suburban and get the electronics to work with the GM dash?

I have 168K on my '99. Weekend towing. Minimal to no blowby. How long before it goes BANG?
 
BJ thanks for the write up and all who gave thier advice too (on this thread and others).

It will generally turn into a long discussion of pro/cons. Its just a long story to get all the points across in any one thread/post about the 6.5's finer points.

BJ you mentioned you would add more cooling to a 6.5 I look forward to hearing your ideas. I think you mentioned transmission pan and rear diff cover. Any other ideas for reduced "stack" heat rejection?
 
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