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To ATT or not part II Technical Discussion Only ?

I'm not wanting to pick a fight so please don't shoot the messenger, but from your 1st videos you are having engine problems maybe minor but something just isn't correct and off just enough for the ATT to not work correctly, & while ATT did not work for yours it should have regardless what your consulting experts have said; unless you have some really oddball driving style or engine/setup configuration something isn't adding up here.

I'm well versed in what Bill Heath may have said if he was one you choose not to mention; he is one of my regular "go to guys" we have spent hours of discussion/debate on this as he was making tunes for mine so much so we have each others personal cell numbers in each others phone, what it boils down to many trains of thought no 2 mechanics/race teams agree on same way to skin a cat/win the race.

Example where we agree same concepts but different ways of getting there; for Bill to make his record setting runs at Bonneville he needed 2 things more air & more fuel he went with twin turbos which work but require more to fab than a ATT install & my FTB fittings are on his LSR. Which when I came up with feed the beast idea and sent him my fittings for test he nixed that idea when I first proposed the need for it him saying the standard h/o lift pump was plenty for performance or h/d tows and me going with FRB-5 and fittings yet him eventually reaching same conclusion going with air dog h/o lift pump.

That said in spite of his negatives toward the ATT we have come up with what I believe to be the correct program match for that turbo it just required persistence my part and time his part to come up with the correct combination. At one time the earliest reflashes he produced were directly compatible to a ATT installation, I know as I ran all of them he put out at the time, some ran well so not so well, depending upon where you fell into the genesis of the tunes he was selling you may have gotten one that does not run well with ATT.

The back pressures in the GM-X turbos will/can mask problems in a high mileage vehicle & I would surmise from what I saw in your 1st videos posted; a similar setup GM-X turbo with a fresher 6.5/injectors/IP/valve train would outperform with same turbo to turbo setup against yours, and that a healthy with a ATT would toast it, too many successful installs with it to lay problems wholly at the turbo.

Is the ATT the only turbo that will work with the 6.5, nope most definitely not as others are proving in their testing, it is one works that well on majority of those it has been installed on I can count on 1 hand that ones it did not work on that I know about and it was found later in those that there were other issues with the vehicle it was installed on; adding to that with what I see in your vids pre, post, and back to GM-X turbo any turbo you try with lesser back pressure than the GM-X is probably going to leave you less than satisfied.

It is unfortunate it did not work for you & that you did not find root cause for your vehicle not being able to work with it as you will not be reaching the full potential with the GM-X turbo which is adequate for many it does have its limitations.
 
I drove the truck before and after . It was in good order and ran fine with the GM5. I also know the shop he is talking about as I use them for nozzles and IP work and they are a well respected name in both Ct and Mass. They have a Tech 2 on site and do alot of DS4 and DB2 work.
 
Ya know I was thinking the same thing at first, that there was something just off with the engine or so but I spent countless hours and a fair amount of money trying to figure it out to only find that the truck is running quite well and it runs the same no matter what I've done. In all honesty and you can talk to Kenny on this the truck runs too good for there to be anything wrong with it. Other than putting a whole new engine in it there is nothing left to do. The engine does have 218,000 on it now and has the normal amount of blow by for it, I replaced the IP approx. 40,00 ago and the same for the injectors. she's not missing on any cylinders and runs very strong. This was the whole reason that I did get another opinion, to make sure that I wasn't missing anything. Kenny gave my truck a good going over, we timed it several different times to make sure everything was where it should be and as I keep saying the truck runs good. I'm not picking a fight either rather just asking a question but how exactly do you know that from my first video that there is something wrong with my truck?
 
So what would it be, I've checked everything. Seems to me that there are a couple of other people with this turbo that also have or run higher than normal egt's.
 
The video is poor at best. I saw the truck first hand. It was smoking like it had a juiced up AFC. As soon as you punched it the truck delivered fuel faster than the turbo could spool. On a HD diesel, I'd say the preboost was off and be adjusting the AFC. His timing #'s were good. I would have taken a screenshot but carcode sucks. The truck has a 5spd and the NV4500 has a wide gap 3-4 and the turbo fell flat during that shift particularly. It was belching out dark grey smoke. If you accelerated slowly you could minimize that but that is not the answer. I suspect a stock tune would have worked better as perhaps the ecm would cut the fuel back with the low boost off the line but if he has to put the stock tune back on then what is the point. The truck ran like a raped ape with the GM5. I had a truck with an NV4500 and his truck would dust it. I would not say the same with the ATT on it. I am sorry if this goes against popular opinion but I am an honest person and those were my observations. I have worked on many diesels over the years. I know what I am looking at.

One question I would like to ask. When this all came about and I looked at the truck I went back to TD's original thread on "A replacement turbo" It did not really say what that turbo came off. I mean it said mitisu/fuso but exactly what did the prototype come off ? A truck ? A piece of HE ? Year make and model ? Type of fuel system ? I would be curious to know those details. Maybe I missed them. That thread is pretty long. I can tell you there is no way that truck would pass emissions around here with the ATT on it. In fact I would go as far as to say DEP would pull the truck over. It looked like my Dually when the vac pump crapped out.
 
This is another video I took at the same place as the first but with the GM5 and the egt's don't rise nearly as fast or as much as the ATT. Yes I know the videos are not of the best quality but I am driving and trying to do this with my cell.

http://youtu.be/d3-CTq-dveg
 
Curious, Tazz ... is your pro sensor pre- or post-turbo? I was just watching your EGTs in the one uphill section, and with boost just over 10psi, you were cresting up to 1000*. That's pretty high for an unloaded truck; what does it do when you're towing?

I'm gonna go back and try to watch the first vids again and see if I can pick up the EGTs in an uphill spot... much better video this time.

And hey.. don't kill yourself taking video while in traffic! That's not an ending we want to see.
 
that's all pre turbo and believe it or not that is a pretty good grade on that hill. Don't forget I also have an EZ-dumper in there and 33" bfg mud terrains on the truck. As I've said before I rarely tow with the truck, as a matter of fact I've only towed once with it. I drive that hill every day on the way to work for the past six years with that truck and it has always hit or come near that temp with the GM5.
 
Ah, didn't know the dumper was in there at the time. Your GM5 is definitely higher in the boost dept, which helps a lot with the EGTs (up to the magic tipping point where the IATs start getting parasitic, of course).. still, I wouldn't have thought it would be that high at your altitude. I worry about high EGTs in these engines, a lot more than high coolant temps.

Glad you're getting it figured out.

Every turbo has limitations, areas of load/rpm/fuel etc that it runs best at... most all of them are a compromise one way or the other, because we use our trucks for different things at different times. (That's why VGT and a computer are good ideas, but that's another problem.)

Too bad this one didn't fit your truck and intended use; it works for others in different trim and different situations ... but keep looking, you'll find one that works for you!
 
Sorry guys been having internet issues all week meant to reply earlier, anyway what hits me as wrong is EGT temps I'm not only one seeing that Buddy in post 59 as well as others seeing it. I have more ATT miles than anyone on the planet, not bragging just stating fact and would not hesitate to install another or recommend that someone install it on theirs.

I've installed 2 on my own vehicles as well as the original TD07-22A that was start of the project, I have installed and phone supported multiple installs when guys could not get to Dennis. As you say Kenny you had it in front of you vs me seeing what I see in video, & U say it's rolling coal from bottom up, did it never clear up ??? even once ATT spooled ???.

One of the programs I ran from Bill was waaaay fat on bottom end, that I ran the summer I was up that way in NY, where ATT needs fuel from the original program was not on the bottom as it will smoke like a early F4F Phantom pre-smokeless combustor, Bill was very proud of that tune because of the way it spooled the GM-X turbo it was not suitable for the ATT we tweaked it.

Kenny you saw mine that summer did it smoke or lack power like the description I'm reading here, multiple members have ridden in it, GMCTD was also in on the project when he was active here and I would run it with him during my trips to Houston before he moved out to the country in internet hell. ATT was not a cobbed up piece of hardware some serious thought went intro it and improvements made along the way to make the kit better with input from me & others.

I need to grab some video of my latest setup but no photographer handy and I won't try to film & drive again it is darn dangerous, did it once towing a small trailer & posted on U tube won't do that again .

The Mitsu I started with was a buy at suggestion of Dennis from Japan Auto Warehouse on ebay to try something he thought would work, turbo was new in box turbo destined to be a replacement used on Fuso truck or Komatsu track-hoe, logic behind it those vehicles run consistently with their 6.9 engine where the 6.5s power band is also.

I ran the test for nearly a year collecting data while Dennis worked on the aftermarket angle overseas tweaking the TDO-7 turbo & wheel to his specs. I have 2 of those turbos now and my TDO-7 sits on the shelf as ATT pulls a little harder than the TDO-7 does, both spooling nearly equally to each other slight & barely perceptable advantage ATT vs TDO-7.

I'm thinking Tazz you have a high fuel rate via programming or bad IP internal setting I have gotten bad IP rebuilds and even had a NOS IP off shelf that had mis-adjusted cam ring from Stanadyne causing "wonky" fueling that was a bear to figure out, fueling even from Kenny's latest comment is where I'd look, and maybe something else we haven't quite nailed down, 13.9 mpg you reported earlier is on low end another indication something isn't quite correct with fuel delivery possibly.

But unless a problem with the turbo itself (TBD from test run) the anomaly has to be with the vehicle, as too many successful ATTs installs out there, multiple times Dennis has done satisfaction polling and no negatives have been posted yours is one, a couple of others have posted some dissatisfaction with spooling but problems to extent Kenny is seeing/reporting have not happened in any other set-up.
 
FWIW Tazz summer 2010 I was in school in Schenectady running the MA Pike I-90 I think; 90+ mph in mine for a spell dusting a ricer that thought he had something, wrong :) no substitute for displacement when climbing the highest peak in the NE not smoke or EGT issues and the 400# bumper on front of my K1500 isn't most aerodynamic piece of hardware to mount on front of a vehicle.
 
Tazz's truck is 4wd vs 2wd.

There IS a difference in weight, drag etc.

Tim, I never did actually go for a test drive with you, only saw it. I had my own issues that day with that POS DTech pmd. The smoke did clear up yes. The truck was not "undriveable" by any means at all and top end saw more.

I don't dispute that nor does Dan but overall driveabilty was not as good as with the GM5.

Tim, I respect you 100% and even agree about possibly his Heath tune delivering the fuel more bottom end and not matching the boost curve of the turbo .

I think that was the point I was trying to make comparing to an AFC. But here's the problem.

This turbo was "Marketed" as a bolt on upgrade. In many posts people were told it will work fine with pretty much any scenario and that is not the case. Maybe a new tune could have cut the smoke alot to a more acceptable level but tunes are not free and when someone spends 900$ expecting positive results that is an issue.

I am sure there are people out here who have put on an ATT and gotten a different tune and are happy with the way their truck drives for the way they use/drive it but in this case and a few others like Warwagon, Joey D and IIRC even Detoit Dan had issues.

I don't know if he ever resolved his and in ever case...Something "HAD" to be wrong with the truck in those cases and I am telling you Dan's truck is in good order save for some tranny work.(you better address that soon, hard parts for an NV are not cheap :D).

Metro INj is one of the best builders in NEW England and they specialize in DS4's and he trouble shoots 6.5 issues at his shop. If something was that drastically off with his IP I think it would show more symptoms.

Dark grey smoke is usually not one of them. I also question how well an ATT will work with a DB2.

They smoke as it is because there is no real way to control pre-boost fuel. I don't think the question is whether this turbo works or not. I think the question is, is it right for every scenario and are modifications necessary to achieve that ?

That should be disclosed when marketing it. If someone's turbo is on they way out and they don't have the money for a tune or an exhaust then perhaps an ATT is not for them or if someone is running an older Heath tune that doesn't match this turbo then that should be disclosed as well.

You said it yourself, you had to play with the tunes. The turbo was marketed as a bolt on upgrade.

Dan the next time you are down this way give me a ring. There is a diesel shop in town owned by a guy who worked at Tri State. We can take the truck over there for a fourth opinion. I know him and have spent enough money there that I am sure he won't charge .

I would still like to see an actual application that the prototype was used on.

As a Heavy Equip operator I can tell you machines generally belch alot of smoke when you throttle them up and then level off but they are run wide open.

They are also not subject to emissions testing(until the current admin rams that down our throats next) I would be curious to see the Fuel system of a Fuso truck running this turbo.

Type of IP etc.

Edited for readability dang it Kenny you ever hear of paragraphs :D:D:D
 
I assumed the higher load his truck had with the dump bed etc. would help spool a bigger turbo. In fact the higher EGT's seen vs. a standard pickup are likely the dump bed and tires. Weight and wind drag taking more fuel and more EGT to keep rolling. So I suggest his EGT's are accurate. I also questioned my EGT gauge after sustaining 1500 EGT on the Payson pull for 12+ min. Other than 'pitting' on the glow plug shells you would not know I ever did that. (Surfaces of the glow plugs looked like they had a rusted surface texture while still being silver colored.) Thus my gauge is accurate and I have un-melted pistons in the engine still running strong. Timing makes a big difference in what you can get away with for EGT.

Looks like the shift time and the turbo wind down during a shift really hurts MT trucks as an Auto can shift without a power change to the engine.

Keep in mind I have other changes like NA military precups, slightly higher compression, bigger exhaust valves, and 6.2 injector angles that make my ATT project 'different'. I have a DS4 6.2 NA engine with an ATT on it. The results I get on my engine are different than others with an ATT get as they have 6.5 heads. it is still a small turbo vs. a big turbo and the effective RPM range of the trade off. IE trade the low end for top end. ~2000 being the breakpoint between low and high end.

As hard as I use my trucks I need the top end more than the bottom end. So I am not a daily driver...
 
tazz said:
So what would it be, I've checked everything. Seems to me that there are a couple of other people with this turbo that also have or run higher than normal egt's.
Click to expand...

If their are others that have an EGT problem with the ATT they NEED TO CONTACT ME. I can not help if I am not aware, All of the supposed problems others are having cannot be addressed if they do not contact me and let me know. As far as any problems. I always AND I STRESS THIS do not shy away from problems. SO untill I figure out if TAZZ has a problem with his truck, because mine is a five speed as well and a 4x4 and has 235 85 tires on it and I have access to a 12000 pound load or greater when ever I need. I will figure out what the problem is, whether it is the ATT or not.

I have far more running out there that are without problems than I have with problems. As far as my customer commitment, it is unwavering. To base the turbo off of one vehicle is not an accurate portrayal. I also should be given an oprtunity to figure out if there is problem with the turbo and make it right, rather than being judged before all of the evidence is in. When a person is accused they usually have an opportunity to defend themselves in a professional manner. If I have been less than honest I could understand the hanging but I have not been unless there is something I need to know.

Also to anyone out there that has purchased an ATT that has had issues but would not bring them up because they are afraid to speak up PLEASE pm me, I have heard from two members in PM how there is a big behind the scenes talk. I can not stress enough how important it is to have feedback.

I will also be asking the the moderators for a forum for the ATT in the vendor section. I look forward to clearing myself. I keep detailed records of who purchased turbos and have started a email and letter campaign to get a customer survey report. Unfortunately one person will not be getting such a survey, because their opinion and problem is already clearly and publicly documented. I hope to have more information.

One last note, I have the factory keep one turbo from every production run so that there is a base line for that run number. So if there is a problem I will know who has what production run and when it was manufactured and sold. I don't think a fly by night operation would go to such lengths.
 
I think you have missed the point I have been trying to make from my observations of the one I worked on. I have never said there was a "Problem" with the turbo itself so testing it on your truck is not going to solve/prove anything. If there is an issue with the turbo not spooling properly with certain tunes , certain IP's or any other configuration then that needs to be disclosed to potential buyers. If a specialized tune whether it be from heath, Kojo, Buddy, Engh and many others then a buyer needs to be aware of that and prepared for a possible extra expense. Same goes with exhaust. Maybe it's been discussed in threads but not everyone reads every thread. Some people might just read one thread and say I gotta get that and then their truck may respond differently because they did not realize more mods may be needed. If the ATT works best with a tune written for it and a 4 inch exhaust then my suggestion would be to make sure the customer understands that. I think in the future that will save alot of headaches. That is my opinion.
 
Also I would still like an actual application that this turbo came off off, preferably something used on road. I would like to see the fuel system used with this turbo as it was designed.
 
I don't know what else the truck would need other than a free flowing exhaust. There was three years of testing before the first turbo was sold to Matuva, what configurations don;t work? Well I know one. I have run a stock tune as have others without problems and I ran Heaths HP 4 without problems. I have at least 10 running db2 pumps and auto and stick transmissions. Most of the early tunes ran fine as they were probably milder than the later tunes that were designed to get the most out of the GM eight.
As far as every configuration being discussed prior to a sale, I am unsure how that can be done since I don't have that information without interviewing a potential customer before every sale. I certainly don't sell with the intent of misleading. Most (99) percent of the trucks that can use an ATT just need a free flowing exhaust as an addition before the turbo. (that will be addressed)

If the whole basis for this discussion is based on one truck then according to the logic put out there, this truck should not be a base line for comparison, because every truck is different? Or did I miss the point? There are multiple trucks running the turbo with out problems with different tunes from different vendors and different configurations are they the oddballs or is one truck? How does a vendor get to know every truck before a sale is made? I am trying here but my bench mark seems to be at a different level than most, or am I missing something? I said I would check all areas and if there is a problem I would address it, how much more can I do? Pay to have someone use it?

As for the actual application, that was listed years ago in the initial thread.
 
My apologies Kenny for not responding earlier I've been off line pre-planning for a major turbine plant outage that runs last week of this Oct thru end of next Feb so I'll be off more than on next few months, I'll respond point by point now that I can read it without going blurry eyed :):):)

1st off I'm not discounting your observations; 1st hand trumps remote diagnostics, but I'm still leaning to a combination of things for this one vehicle not making it a viable ATT candidate and working as anticipated.

To your point maybe the vendor needs to do some pre-screening as you say, especially now since there are folks coming in with latest refinements in tunes for their vehicles, again I'm not sure when Tazz got his tune from Bill, & I'd have to talk to him myself to see what Bill thinks about the individual tune in Tazz's truck.

Acesneights1 said:
Tazz's truck is 4wd vs 2wd.

Ditto me also K1500 truck and and with stuff I haul up to 18K and even empty after adding bumper I surmise I'm close to weight of Tazz's truck and very much exceed it in drag or weight at times, my C1500 burb pretty heavy in it's own right and not most aerodynamic ride has ATT and same generation tune as Tazz's not the last ATT specific tune in my truck maybe some delta it being 2wd & 3:42 but I don't think enough to write home about in difference

There IS a difference in weight, drag etc. see above

Tim, I never did actually go for a test drive with you, only saw it.

You missed out on a fun ride GTMTD called it "Mr. Tim's Wild Ride aka Mr. Toads ride at Disney World" first time he rode in it

I had my own issues that day with that POS DTech pmd. The smoke did clear up yes. The truck was not "undriveable" by any means at all and top end saw more.

I don't dispute that nor does Dan but overall driveabilty was not as good as with the GM5.

Tim, I respect you 100% and even agree about possibly his Heath tune delivering the fuel more bottom end and not matching the boost curve of the turbo .

The tunes up until late last summer that I drove did not heavy smoke, but that was when Bill was really trying to nail down some improvements to GM-X based on his Bonneville education that he could apply to the average 6.5 guy

I think that was the point I was trying to make comparing to an AFC. But here's the problem.

This turbo was "Marketed" as a bolt on upgrade. In many posts people were told it will work fine with pretty much any scenario and that is not the case. Maybe a new tune could have cut the smoke alot to a more acceptable level but tunes are not free and when someone spends 900$ expecting positive results that is an issue.

Point of order & to refresh your memory without having to delve into the original posts I made on the turbo 2 years ago http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?2015-Replacement-turbo

The TDO7 & ATT were run with both GM stock L65 & 1st generation HP tunes, and did not smoke, only reason I stayed with Bill on modifying tunes were to find one that works BEST with the TDO-7ATT not that the ones I had did not work, but I felt that one that was matched to TDO-7 & ATTs boosting profile would be way to go vs a program setup using a GM-X set of boost tables.

At time ATT was marketed, it was direct bolt on and still is IMO, provided the truck was in good health good results were experienced on it, Tazz's truck as far as I know to date is ONLY truck to experience issues you saw, so from a pure sample size 1 truck out of 50+ I don't know actual ATTs out there with major problems that could not be resolved in whatever configuration.

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?2015-Replacement-turbo

He hasn't been around the site in forever but Mr. Buck-Buck installed ATT only his truck no reflash, no IC, no WMI hauling 30,000# & bigger loads regularly of pipe in the Louisiana oil field business on a 4500 hand-shaker dually flatbed, wanna talk about drag & severe duty & summertime in deep South ???

I am sure there are people out here who have put on an ATT and gotten a different tune and are happy with the way their truck drives for the way they use/drive it but in this case and a few others like Warwagon, Joey D and IIRC even Detoit Dan had issues.

"Had issues is a far cry from turbo is junk as was eluded to in some other threads bantered about as of late"

There are going to be variables for individual trucks to be sure not discounting those at all, what was described on Tazz's truck was black smoke that could not/would not clear up the others aren't reporting that & if they are having these issues for real seems to me place for resolution is with the vendor not you or I.



I don't know if he ever resolved his and in ever case...Something "HAD" to be wrong with the truck in those cases and I am telling you Dan's truck is in good order save for some tranny work.(you better address that soon, hard parts for an NV are not cheap :D).

Metro INj is one of the best builders in NEW England and they specialize in DS4's and he trouble shoots 6.5 issues at his shop. If something was that drastically off with his IP I think it would show more symptoms. I never said drastically wrong with the IP something different with the IP, as I said earlier my IP was NEW Old Stock straight from Stanadyne to guy I bought it from @ Pensacola Fuel Injection you mite know him Diesel Pro on old site, stuff does happen even at best shops

Dark grey smoke is usually not one of them. I also question how well an ATT will work with a DB2. I'll have to defer to Dennis on that one, I have 0 experience with those, but i think there are some DB2/ATT combinations out there

They smoke as it is because there is no real way to control pre-boost fuel. I don't think the question is whether this turbo works or not. I think the question is, is it right for every scenario and are modifications necessary to achieve that ?

That should be disclosed when marketing it. If someone's turbo is on they way out and they don't have the money for a tune or an exhaust then perhaps an ATT is not for them or if someone is running an older Heath tune that doesn't match this turbo then that should be disclosed as well.

You said it yourself, you had to play with the tunes. The turbo was marketed as a bolt on upgrade. see above only palyed with tunes for better impovement not that tunes I had prior to final one did not work with exception of 1 "hot tune" that works for GM_X turbo

Dan the next time you are down this way give me a ring. There is a diesel shop in town owned by a guy who worked at Tri State. We can take the truck over there for a fourth opinion. I know him and have spent enough money there that I am sure he won't charge .

I would still like to see an actual application that the prototype was used on. In earlier post I said Mitsubishi Fuso dually flatbed/cargo box trucks had em I've seen those in Japan & US on the road they weren't heavy smokers to best of my memory Japan is getting to be pretty tight on emissions these days as well, but I think no longer made either maybe due to even tighter emissions like DPF /Tier3 restrictions we have here now ????

As a Heavy Equip operator I can tell you machines generally belch alot of smoke when you throttle them up and then level off but they are run wide open.

They are also not subject to emissions testing(until the current admin rams that down our throats next) I would be curious to see the Fuel system of a Fuso truck running this turbo. I dunno fuel system they used but they were 6.9L engines

Type of IP etc.

Edited for readability dang it Kenny you ever hear of paragraphs :D:D:D
Click to expand...
 
Just to let everyone know that the IP I got was straight from Stanadyne and was the latest and greatest new in the box. If I remember correctly it is a DS4 5521.
 
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