Starting Over 93 C3500 18:1

[Duvall]

Long story made short.

I had put together an optimizer from Ted's more than a few years ago. Maybe put 5k miles on it and then the drivers side head gasket failed. So I pulled it apart and O-ringed the deck and used Cometic MLS gaskets. Ran it for a few weeks and noticed compression getting into the cooling system, but not leaking coolant into the cylinders. Let is sit for a few years and this summer I decided it was time to get back into this money pit. I couldn't get the engine to turn over for anything. Pulled it all apart and wouldn't you know it, coolant made its way into a few of the cylinders and destroyed it. My plan was to go .020 over and new pistons. The bores would not clean up with .020, and the machine shop said that .030 wouldn't do it either.


It was time for a block hunt. After a bit of searching I decide to roll the dice on an import block. I had some issues with the company I bought this block from. The bores were .002 over max spec and I ended up boring this .020 over. That is another story that I will open in the 6.5 section. It has 18:1 pistons, gapless rings and a balanced rotating assembly. Heads studs and Fluidampr are on hand. That brings this story up to date.

I have not used or seen a block for center mount turbo, yet it appears that these import blocks show up this way.



That brings up a couple questions.

I had this block sent right to my machine shop. I didn't notice the ball bearing and I have not messed with it. Is it pressed in place as a location pin?
Is it a threaded hole and the clown shop I got it from hammered a bearing in there for some reason?

Has anyone plugged this oil return hole with something for use with a side mount turbo?

More to come..

 

[Will L.]

Never seen the ball bearing to plug the oil hole. Stupid idea imo. They are not threaded factory, just a drilled hole.

Could have been threaded and plugged. And there is still the larger drain hole to deal with. The figure 8 oring and a plate of steel over the top could seal it, but again just thread and plug is a better option imo. Guessing they drove it in until flush? No idea how to knock it out. What a dumb move.

Bad part is just the special $10 oring seal and a piece of angle iron would have held.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

I've always heard you should never run O-rings with MLS headgaskets. Either one or the other but never together.

That ball bearing pressed into to turbo feed line is interesting. Can't say I've ever seen that one before.

 

[Duvall]

Never seen the ball bearing to plug the oil hole. Stupid idea imo. They are not threaded factory, just a drilled hole.

Could have been threaded and plugged. And there is still the larger drain hole to deal with. The figure 8 oring and a plate of steel over the top could seal it, but again just thread and plug is a better option imo. Guessing they drove it in until flush? No idea how to knock it out. What a dumb move.

Bad part is just the special $10 oring seal and a piece of angle iron would have held.

The ball is above flush. I am going to get it out somehow and tap the hole. I can just see that thing coming out driving down the road.

I've always heard you should never run O-rings with MLS headgaskets. Either one or the other but never together.

That ball bearing pressed into to turbo feed line is interesting. Can't say I've ever seen that one before.

I got bad information on the MLS and o-ring situation. Otherwise I would have stuck to a standard head gasket.

 

[DieselSlug]

Very strange on the ball for sure.

 

[MrMarty51]

A BB in there. Probably have to grind away top material to get it to release, then thread the hole, all of this without getting grindings into a partially assembled engine ? Yeeeouch.

 

[Will L.]

Removing that ball is going to be a challenge. I was thinking the smallest brazing tip/ pencil torch and heat it up to remove the temper, that might just braze it into place however. Maybe a tiny diegrinder tip or sanding stone and take the time to make a jig to hold it perfectly still that bolts to the turbo mount holes?

If you remove the back oil plug and put something in there to stop any debris from going in the passage is should help. I just used a long "bottle brush" that went past it and then pulled it out after drilling my hole into the block I have to add my centermount turbo. Then use the oil hole in the valley as the inlet to flush anything out that back hole and port.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

Removing that ball is going to be a challenge. I was thinking the smallest brazing tip/ pencil torch and heat it up to remove the temper, that might just braze it into place however. Maybe a tiny diegrinder tip or sanding stone and take the time to make a jig to hold it perfectly still that bolts to the turbo mount holes?

If you remove the back oil plug and put something in there to stop any debris from going in the passage is should help. I just used a long "bottle brush" that went past it and then pulled it out after drilling my hole into the block I have to add my centermount turbo. Then use the oil hole in the valley as the inlet to flush anything out that back hole and port.

Will L. Do you have the exact location of where the holes need to be drilled for the centermount turbo oil feed and return? I need to have my block drilled and I'm trying to make sure it's done correctly. I have a few pictures. But some measurements would be awesome!!!

 

[WarWagon]

Make the blocking plate, add the orings, leave the ball bearing alone, and use the plate to make sure it doesn't blow out. Dimple the blocking plate with a ball bearing in a press or drill it some to allow the existing BB to clear and compress the orings. IMO the chance to ruin $hit around the hardened ball bearing trying to remove it is too great.

For example you would use a 3/4" nut on the bottom the plate, and then a ball bearing on top. I would have a small dimple drilled in the plate to hold the ball bearing in place on a press. Then press in a dimple using the height measurement of the BB stuck in the block (subtract) figuring in the o ring height.

I salute you for continuing on with this truck.

I apologize for my recommendation to get anything from Ted's "Boat Anchors" Trucks. As they were the ONLY place I could find a used engine I tried them. First engine had problems with a ruined cam and cracked cam bearing and the warranty second engine Ted's sent was completely burned up with a pencil whipped info sheet showing the same high compression for all 8 holes. Per their procedure you are SOL if the second engine they send has problems. Nothing has changed with Ted's... It was a long fight with PayPal credit and the fight continued with bank behind PayPal. In short I gave up and parted out the truck. You understand how hard that was to do.

The old truck of ours simply wasn't worth the cost of a new long block. It could have been saved with dropping a dime a dozen used 350 or other crate gas engine in. But wouldn't be the same. Worth? Yeah unless you get classic insurance and declare a value it's worth to an insurance company when some not paying attention a$$hole plows into it ... Another vehicle and another battle going on for us now.

 

[Will L.]

Will L. Do you have the exact location of where the holes need to be drilled for the centermount turbo oil feed and return? I need to have my block drilled and I'm trying to make sure it's done correctly. I have a few pictures. But some measurements would be awesome!!!

Yes, I will get you the info this weekend. I cheated and had another block to measure off of. In the end I wish I had NOT done it. adding a drain into the pan and hose from the other ports would have done just fine. and now that I want to get rid of the center mount gm6 with its 3 piece intake manifold- I am going to tap and plug those two holes. If you have something where you need to keep a factory turbo- ok. otherwise, better doing different turbos and just drain to pan similar to normal truck turbos.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

Awesom thank you!!

I'm center mounting a s300. I suppose I could grab oil from the port in the valley then drain it to the pan. I just want to make it as clean as an install as possible. So I'm considering drilling the oil holes for the centermount since I'm mounting the turbo almost directly above them. Once the turbo is mounted I will make my decision to drill them or not. But I'd like to have proper measurements just in case I need them

 

[Duvall]

Make the blocking plate, add the orings, leave the ball bearing alone, and use the plate to make sure it doesn't blow out. Dimple the blocking plate with a ball bearing in a press or drill it some to allow the existing BB to clear and compress the orings. IMO the chance to ruin $hit around the hardened ball bearing trying to remove it is too great.

For example you would use a 3/4" nut on the bottom the plate, and then a ball bearing on top. I would have a small dimple drilled in the plate to hold the ball bearing in place on a press. Then press in a dimple using the height measurement of the BB stuck in the block (subtract) figuring in the o ring height.

I like your idea. Iv'e been look for a reason to buy a press.

Then bolt this piece down with the FFM mount holes?

I salute you for continuing on with this truck.

I apologize for my recommendation to get anything from Ted's "Boat Anchors" Trucks. As they were the ONLY place I could find a used engine I tried them. First engine had problems with a ruined cam and cracked cam bearing and the warranty second engine Ted's sent was completely burned up with a pencil whipped info sheet showing the same high compression for all 8 holes. Per their procedure you are SOL if the second engine they send has problems. Nothing has changed with Ted's... It was a long fight with PayPal credit and the fight continued with bank behind PayPal. In short I gave up and parted out the truck. You understand how hard that was to do.

The old truck of ours simply wasn't worth the cost of a new long block. It could have been saved with dropping a dime a dozen used 350 or other crate gas engine in. But wouldn't be the same. Worth? Yeah unless you get classic insurance and declare a value it's worth to an insurance company when some not paying attention a$$hole plows into it ... Another vehicle and another battle going on for us now.

I appreciate all the self inflicted research that you have done. I don't even remember where I got my Teds recommendation from. There was nothing wrong with my Optimizer from them, I screwed it up by using o-rings with MLS gaskets. My lessons cost me a lot of money.

I don't want to pay for a newer truck to replace this one. I can keep dumping money into this and still be ahead. Of course it wont have leather interior and give me a back rub.

I can understand how it felt to part out what you had. This truck has a lot of family history tied to it, its not going anywhere.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

Make the blocking plate, add the orings, leave the ball bearing alone, and use the plate to make sure it doesn't blow out. Dimple the blocking plate with a ball bearing in a press or drill it some to allow the existing BB to clear and compress the orings. IMO the chance to ruin $hit around the hardened ball bearing trying to remove it is too great.

For example you would use a 3/4" nut on the bottom the plate, and then a ball bearing on top. I would have a small dimple drilled in the plate to hold the ball bearing in place on a press. Then press in a dimple using the height measurement of the BB stuck in the block (subtract) figuring in the o ring height.

I salute you for continuing on with this truck.

I apologize for my recommendation to get anything from Ted's "Boat Anchors" Trucks. As they were the ONLY place I could find a used engine I tried them. First engine had problems with a ruined cam and cracked cam bearing and the warranty second engine Ted's sent was completely burned up with a pencil whipped info sheet showing the same high compression for all 8 holes. Per their procedure you are SOL if the second engine they send has problems. Nothing has changed with Ted's... It was a long fight with PayPal credit and the fight continued with bank behind PayPal. In short I gave up and parted out the truck. You understand how hard that was to do.

The old truck of ours simply wasn't worth the cost of a new long block. It could have been saved with dropping a dime a dozen used 350 or other crate gas engine in. But wouldn't be the same. Worth? Yeah unless you get classic insurance and declare a value it's worth to an insurance company when some not paying attention a$$hole plows into it ... Another vehicle and another battle going on for us now.

The way I see it a used engine is a used engine. I've installed alot over my career and most of the time I've had no issues. But the 6.2/6.5 is a whole different ball game. I did a engine job in a p30 a while back. Took me 6 engines to find a good used one that was drop in ready. With the history these engines have finding a rebuildable core is about as good as it gets. If the block isn't cracked and the cylinder walls are good that's all you can hope for in a used 6.5. Everything else is replaceable. In my opinion a Ted's engine, or any military take out should only be considered a rebuildable core.

 

[Duvall]

Here are some better pics of this bearing. In the last pic you can barely make out the stress lines in the casting where the bearing has been pushed in.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

I'd weld something to the ball a slide hammer could grab and pull it out....

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Did ya have ALL the measurements and alignment's checked ??

 

[Duvall]

I'd weld something to the ball a slide hammer could grab and pull it out....

I like that idea too.

Then I will need to made metal chips if I were to tap the hole. I could do the tapping upside down.
Still on the fence with that.

Did ya have ALL the measurements and alignment's checked ??

I knew you would ask that.

I had all checked that my machine shop was capable of. They saw no issues other than the bores too large.

 

[Duvall]

No major events.

Head studs installed. For thread sealer I use Permatex 20539 Indian Head Gasket Shellac Compound
I have used it in the past and its never failed me. It acts as a thread locker, and it smells good too.

Timing gears should be here Wednesday.

I am going to leave the ball in the turbo oil feed and use a plate to cover it and the return hole. The center mount turbo oil feed/return gasket doesn't seem to be available from Rock Auto.

 

[MrMarty51]

Boy~O~ Boy that looks nice.
If the turbo gasket is absolutely NA, might be a couple of O~Rings thicker than the depth of the step can be used.
You might try a local parts store for the turbo seal.
Maybe Leroy Diesel or Quadstar tuning.

 

[Will L.]

If non of the vendors here have it-
Bluehummer.net
Hummerpartsguy.com
Real4wd.com

Look up civilian Hummer H1 from 1996-2004. All the same gasket.
It is 1 piece, do NOT try using 2 orings, that will leak- seen it already.