Replacing IP on 93 6.5L have timing and installation questions

[GM Guy]

Hey all,

Finally rounded up a good IP (courtesy fellow member someotherguy) its a very low miled rebuilt pump, so I am confident I will get quite a few miles out of it. It is going in my 1993 Chevy K2500HD 6.5L 5spd 4wd ECLB.

I had a few questions concerning installation

1) is ther any way to screw up and get the pump installed 180 degrees off? According to my GM factory service manual, they basically say to put the locator pin at 6 o' clock, pull pump, install new pump, line up scribe mark, and you are good to go.

From what I know about Stanadyne distributor style pumps is that they rotate at half of crankshaft speed. Is this why simply installing it properly in the locator pin hole and lining up the scribe mark is OK for proper operation?

I need a re-assuring technical explanation basically.


2) is there any way to jump a gear tooth? it looks rather tight, and they talk about rolling it over with the pump off in the factory service manual, so I assume the housing is tight enough the gear wont flop around and be able to jump a tooth?

3) the manual says to put the locating pin and slot on the gear at 6 o' clock. is it important that it is exactly there? we cant seem to get the engine to stop at exactly 0 degrees on the timing marker down on the harmonic damper when we roll it over with a breaker bar.

4) it is dark and trying to spit rain, otherwise I would go investigate myself, but I am worring I may have pulled a dumb move when sealing the intake, then rolling it over. I put blue shop rag down the ports when I pulled the intake, then covered it with duct tape. then I proceeded to blow crap all over and got the valley cleaned out.
Do you guys think I sucked a chunk of blue shop towel into the engine rolling it over with a breaker bar? we only went 1.5 turns, it still has good compression, so we didnt roll it over fast.

Any input appreciated, thanks!

 

[WarWagon]

Hey all,

Finally rounded up a good IP (courtesy fellow member someotherguy) its a very low miled rebuilt pump, so I am confident I will get quite a few miles out of it. It is going in my 1993 Chevy K2500HD 6.5L 5spd 4wd ECLB.

I had a few questions concerning installation

1) is ther any way to screw up and get the pump installed 180 degrees off? According to my GM factory service manual, they basically say to put the locator pin at 6 o' clock, pull pump, install new pump, line up scribe mark, and you are good to go.

NO!, You can't screw it up. The 3 bolts will not go in if you have the pump off proper position to the gear. The pump can go in wrong, but, you will not be able to get all 3 bolts in therefore you will know after you have 1 or 2 bolts in. There is a locator pin on the pump that goes into the gear. I just pull the old IP out at the engine's favorite stopping position and for S&G spin the old pump over to completely loose track of the original position. Then I use a mirror to figure out where the gear is and where the next pump has to be while cussing myself for spinning the old pump before lining the new pump up with the old one. I swear the things I do to myself for entertainment...

I just pull the oil fill tube and use a old hard drive magnet on a socket to remove and install the bolts.



From what I know about Stanadyne distributor style pumps is that they rotate at half of crankshaft speed. Is this why simply installing it properly in the locator pin hole and lining up the scribe mark is OK for proper operation?

Yes. Adding to it your old timing chain has stretched so you will need to time it and fake the timing by ear if you have to.

I need a re-assuring technical explanation basically.


2) is there any way to jump a gear tooth? it looks rather tight, and they talk about rolling it over with the pump off in the factory service manual, so I assume the housing is tight enough the gear wont flop around and be able to jump a tooth?

Word is the gear case is tight enough to prevent a tooth from jumping - although I have reason to suspect mine may have jumped a tooth or a really bad pump. With all the pumps I have put on I suggest this is not common or possible.

3) the manual says to put the locating pin and slot on the gear at 6 o' clock. is it important that it is exactly there? we cant seem to get the engine to stop at exactly 0 degrees on the timing marker down on the harmonic damper when we roll it over with a breaker bar.

As above: Never did this myself so I suggest accuracy is not required here.

4) it is dark and trying to spit rain, otherwise I would go investigate myself, but I am worring I may have pulled a dumb move when sealing the intake, then rolling it over. I put blue shop rag down the ports when I pulled the intake, then covered it with duct tape. then I proceeded to blow crap all over and got the valley cleaned out.
Do you guys think I sucked a chunk of blue shop towel into the engine rolling it over with a breaker bar? we only went 1.5 turns, it still has good compression, so we didnt roll it over fast.

I don't think a rag would move at hand crank speed. I did pop the ATT turbo covers off when cranking by hand. It could fall in as low speed with duct tape covers wouldn't suck anything unless the duct tape failed. If you have a borescope you can look in each cylinder. Sadly a rag can hold a valve open and bend it from piston contact. I would suggest with flat lifters and engine spun by hand you would be ok. Starting the engine could cause damage if a rag is in a cylinder and hangs up in a valve. It could hang either valve and travel in the intake manifold to other cylinders.

Any input appreciated, thanks!

See above

 

[GM Guy]

thanks for the reply WW, I feel a little more confident I cant scew up the timing. I did score a J-33300 timing tool a year or two ago, so I am set for timing.


Also, the hoses look good for the fuel. should I just change the harder to change FFM to IP like and deal with everything else later?

If its recommended to change them all, how much length and what diameter's of hose do I need?

thanks!

 

[GM Guy]

also, I bent the lines out of the way for the injectors with no issues, surely I can bend them out of the way again for the pump?

I dont mind loosening the drivers side, but the pass. side is the real issue.

 

[WarWagon]

You don't have to bend the lines much to remove the pump. Just get them out of the holes on the pump. You must have a 5/8 crow's foot and a universal joint on a socket extension helps for some lines.

The FFM to IP hose is 1/4". I would have 5' - 6' on hand. make sure to use the Biodiesel rated hose. You can change the FFM to IP hose with the intake on, but, not fun.

I think the other hose size used is 3/8" for the FFM to truck fuel line. 2' should do the job.

Ask yourself if the FFM to fuel line hoses and return to fuel line hoses are easier to change now while you are staring at them or do you want to change them with the intake on due to leak on a emergency basis? It isn't fun to change the FFM to IP hose at 2AM to get home because it suddenly started leaking bad, and this is where I learned you can move the FFM and get to the IP hose while laying on top of the engine w/o pulling the intake. The FFM to truck fuel line is a real PIA as you can't even see it.

Careful of going too long on hoses as they will kink and stop the engine.

 

[GM Guy]

so basically remove the lines and nudge them "outward" (from the round head, basically making a bigger circle) and push the pump further to the back into the space between the lines until its free of the timing cover, then rotate the front of the pump up and pull out the top?

Luckily I have the proper crowfoot tool for the lines.

Thanks!

 

[GM Guy]

got it installed and the truck runs good!

just did a test fire last night with a few bolts in the intake. Will pull it again today and put new intake gaskets in.

I changed the feed line to the IP, but left the others alone, as the only hose I could source locally was plain Gates gas line, no Viton line. I figured if the line isnt Viton, dont even bother. Right or wrong?

plus, isnt the two hoses running over the bellhousing crimped? does a guy remove them from the truck to change? do you grind off the crimp and replace with hose clamps?

 

[bowtiebutler956]

got it installed and the truck runs good!

just did a test fire last night with a few bolts in the intake. Will pull it again today and put new intake gaskets in.

I changed the feed line to the IP, but left the others alone, as the only hose I could source locally was plain Gates gas line, no Viton line. I figured if the line isnt Viton, dont even bother. Right or wrong?

plus, isnt the two hoses running over the bellhousing crimped? does a guy remove them from the truck to change? do you grind off the crimp and replace with hose clamps?

Glad to here its running well. I don't have any experience with the viton lines personally, but I've herd they're good. I just used the Gates fuel hose on mine. My 93 still had the OE GM (21 year old) fuel hose on it, and although I replaced it, it was still in decent shape, so I figure the Gates hose should serve well for a few years.
On my 93 the fuel hoses going from the hard lines on the bell housing to the fuel manager, and return, were not crimped, they were just clamped. Now the hoses going from hard lines to the frame rail are crimped. These can be a pain in the rear, but you can put a couple of slices in the collars using a hand cut off wheel, and eventually remove the collars, and use clamps. Personally, I only replace these if the hoses are starting to get dry rotted.

Matt

 

[GM Guy]

since its coming apart sometime in the near future for new injectors and virgin un-bent injector lines, I may just put it off and pack spare hose.

see if I can order new rubber and steel lines from the frame to the bellhousing, new LP, new this, new that, etc. and be done with it for 2-300K or so.

 

[WarWagon]

Gates Green bio rated hose does ok. It has a hard time with higher % of bio. Specifically it gets soft in a couple years of exposure.

Don't take this wrong, but, I can't think of a better way to put it after dealing with lots of ruined hose, lift pumps, and other misery with Biodiesel use, etc. 23 years ago you didn't have to deal with Biodiesel, LSD, or ULSD. So x years on the truck matters for s#it with today's fuel because it has changed so much. IMO sometimes the old hard hose does better than the new hose till it suddenly fails by leaking badly around the clamps. The new stuff gives you a warning because it is new so you can feel it go bad where the old stuff is rock hard.

Sadly this likely applies to you. Some states require a % of bio in diesel. Some don't label the pumps under 5% concentration. When all else fails look for alcohol rated fuel hose, pumps, etc. Because the alcohol is what causes things to fail from any biodiesel you may run into.

 

[GM Guy]

OK, first run out with a load, and it gets hot.

I never let it go over 210, but really had to soft pedal it to keep temps in check.

It heats up faster the further down the accelerator is, so at 65-75 it heats up faster than 50-60.

It is worth noting that I installed a new t-stat at the same time as the pump change, and it is a genuine AC delco t-stat, and a Genuine GM gasket also changed the quick connect fitting for the heater line, also genuine GM ordered in specific to VIN, just like t-stat and gasket. The gasket looks a little big, but the old one I peeled off is the same way, so I doubt there is an issue there. is the gasket supposed to cover the t-stat base to seal it in the housing I suppose?
The radiator is full of coolant, overflow bottle I filled to the hot line while cold to make up for air getting puked out. There was coolant sitting in the neck, all I lost was what flows out with the heater quick connect unhooked, so I changed t-stat and connector, filled to top, fired it up and let it idle, and it puked a decent amount of air out, so I doubt it is airlocked. no bleed fitting on the mech. pump water necks though, so could it be air locked?

TO advance the timing you go to the left/drivers side, correct? if so, I am advanced slightly. the right side of the timing mark on the pump is about flush with the left side of the timing mark on the hyousing (IE, about 1 scribe line worth of advance)

Finally, if I need to play with the timing, for no more than it will be rotated, a guy doesnt have to loosen and injector lines to let them rotate, correct? does the upper intake need to come off for timing? I do have the special wrenches (all 3) if that makes a difference.

I do have the J-33300 timing box, so I will dig that out and hook it all up if needed. will it give a readout similar to the values seen on a scan tool hooked to a DS4? (-0.75, etc)

What magic number is going to give the best starting, best low end torque, and least amount of heat put into the cooling system? (on that note, it doesnt fire right up, gotta give it some pedal to get it to fire, torque is about the same as it was before the pump swap, aka, not alot. )

any input appreciated, thanks!

 

[NVW]

I would bet you still have air in the coolant.

You can rotate the IP without loosening the lines. IIRC you do turn to DS to advance the timing.

 

[GM Guy]

any suggestions on burping?

The guage does swing with throttle. full throttle up a hill at 70-75, and the temp guage climbs on up. if you soft pedal it, it stays down low, even at higher speeds. That is why I was wondering about the timing, as there is the arm with the roller that acutates at WOT. IIRC this is an advance as well, correct?

as far as burping, seeing how it got good and warm today, I pulled in to home, shut it off, and I will let it sit overnight and cool completely off, so I am sure it will suck some coolant back into the radiator.

So can a certain amount of coolant still be circulating, but an air pocket is not allowing full flow? Do you think I hurt the engine? (never above 210)

thanks!

 

[NVW]

I know nothing about the DB2 workings.

Without the bleed valve on the Tstat housing, I'm thinking you will have to be patient.

I doubt you hurt anything.

 

[GM Guy]

going out to verify the burp tank is full. 6.5-ing in the dark, 2nd night in a row!

Stayed up to 2:30 last night getting tires swapped. Did you know, going Amish on power tool usage makes for hours of tire swapping joy? hand torqued every last one. I am out of shape.

 

[NVW]

Tell me about it, I did a tire rotation with the impact, but hand torqued everything in 90* with about the same humidity. Water ran off my forehead.

 

[GM Guy]

OK, aligned the timing marks, and it is better, but still gets warm. can maintain 195-200 with the defrost on.

I have allready headed out for the Idaho place, but old man has not, so I may have him see if he can make room for my J-33300 and service manuals.

The more I look at it, I am putting more blame on the cooling system. a/c condenser is rather ugly, and the new radiator is a thailand made unit that is 3 row, rather than the proper 4 row. when i had the fan and belt off, the WP "sticks" and you have to force it to move. once is moves, it seems to roll fine though. Looks to be original.

I threw in a spare t-stat housing from a 93 parts engine, as it appears they have had issues with leaks in the past, judging by the RTV use. When I get to idaho I may tear that apart again.

is a guy supposed to use the adhesive on the gasket to stick it to the removeable top, or do you put it on the housing itself, sealing the t-stat into the housing? It is leaking around the gasket somewhere, have a slight amount of seepage. not loosing hardly anything, just making things messy.
also, what is the prupose of having such a large t-stat housing gasket? it hangs out into the flow pretty bad.



The only holdup I have on the condition of the cooling system is that it WAS keeping it cool in the past, but not now. truck sat for a little more than a year waiting to get fixed, so maybe I am having silicate dropout (gumming of the anti-freeze) that is clogging stuff up? anti-freeze looked rather good, not discolored at all, and clean, but there was a little gumminess when I took the t-stat out.

Thanks guys!

 

[Will L.]

Sticking water pump is corrosion usually- meaning impellers are worn bad also and not moving as much fluid. For the short term dump the antifreeze and run straight water, you'll see it cool a little better. As for the gasket- chuck it. I always use "the right stuff" from permatex- never had a leak in hundreds of engines I've built or repaired. Back flush the system while your at it to get rid of any thing gumming up in there.

Save up some nickles for the new water pump on the horizon.

 

[GM Guy]

really thinking its more cooling system, as there have been a few hills that I have hit at WOT and the temp hangs in there.

some hills it heats up faster though, so I am thinking the t-stat needs looked at. I think I will buy a new AC Delco from Leroy and change it, and boil the one i put in, which is also a AC delco, bough new from dealer. worse case if the t-stat isnt the issue, I have one for another rig.

anyone think I screwed anything up going to 230? I kept downshifting and soft pedaling it once it past 210, so it was under very light throttle. had a stiff tailwind in a construction zone. no ram air for radiator, and no place to pull over.

I popped the oil filler cap off and no blowby, so I think since i had the heater roaring and was under light throttle I hopefully didnt hurt anything. agreed?

Did you know? lots of folks honk at you when they pass you after the construction zone when you are down to 35 mph..... :nonod:



also, hit a craigslist add, and met up with a guy at Cheyenne WY and bought his NIB (with one tiny knick in a gear tooth) DSG gear drive set for 6.2L/ 6.5L. bought from Kennedy back in the day. got it and a J code 6.2L intake for 325 total. not a steal, but way cheaper than the 430-450 is for the timing gears alone. gears will probably eventually find their way onto this truck.

 

[Will L.]

If you do damage from the high heat, like 230 for a while, you will know it before you get home that day. Everything in the engine can take that heat, the problem is that if it is to much for too long. "Too much" is a crack in the head or block, or popping a headgasket. I have taken mannyyy 6.5s to 230 and had them there 15-20 minutes at time with no problems. But you need to know you are in the danger zone, and that is when things will go wrong if you do it too often or for too long.

When it comes to the people behind you getting mad: the fact that it bothers you means your not an a-hole, your considering your actions of others around you. They can return the favor and realize you are doing all you can. I have to remind myself sometimes, that dude honking his horn is not the one paying for the new engine. Stay in the slow lane and when there is only one lane it is not your fault the road is not up to snuff. If you slow them down by 10 minutes in that area going a little slow because of one lane, OR you bring them all to a dead stop when it breaks down in that one lane, which is worse?