Rebuilding my front end

[THEFERMANATOR]

Spent the last week and a half rebuilding the front end in the BURB(had some parts problems, and I just can't work like I used to, but I think she's gonna be pretty stout). She's got 240K miles on the clock, with the last 70K of them being swapped. The only work done to her has been idler, bracket, pitman arm, and tie rod ends at 140K miles back in 04, so I'm pretty happy it's made it this long(and if I hadn't taken it to the track, it would probably still be going now). Anyways after all this time, the bushings were getting pretty well cracked and showing there age, the drivers side ball joints were getting some excess play(not bad yet, but getting close), and the idler support bracket as well as steering box were done after my boosted launch experience(nothing like spinning all 4 on a prepped track leaving at 10 pounds of boost). So it's time to freshen up the front end, and try to beef it up some so it can actually hold the power I'm putting down.

So the parts list consisted of all MOOG problem solver bushings for the upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, inner and outer tie rod ends, idler and pitman arms, sway bar bushings, and I had done the sway bar end links a few months back. A redhead steering gear(stock replacement 15:1), supersteer idler support bracket, cognito braces, and UMI 2104's solid steel tie rod sleeves(there are LOTS of solid sleeves that will fit our trucks, just look them up for a 1980 CAMARO as they are the same sleeve). I also took this time to replace the front studs, rotors, calipers, and pads all with dual rear wheel stuff, and installed the XJ steering shaft.

First impressions are pretty good as the steering is TIGHT! The bad is the redhead steering box doesn't feel right to me. It has GREAT power assist to the left(to good actually, wants to go left if you breathe on the wheel), but you have to grasp the wheel to go right. Seem to get better after driving it some, but still not 100% happy with it. Other than that teh steering is UNBELIEVEABLE! It has NEVER been this tight, and it was more like driving a newer style truck. I still need to get an actual alignment as I know I can't get it but so close with a tape measure, level, and a plastic bowl(I put the bowl over the hub to lay the level against to check camber so as to have a true surface to measure against), but I'm pretty close I bet. I'll call redhead about the box tommorrow, but it's nice to have my BURB back to drive. I also put it in 4 high on the dirt road, and it was nice being able to put the coal to it, spin all four, and it not go every which way but straight.

UMI solid tie rod sleeves.

A shot of the passenger side brace

Drivers side brace from underneath

Sure looks alot better than those crappy rolled adjusters.

Redhead steering box

SUPERSTEER idler support bracket
That rotors got some MEAT to it.

Drivers side caliper shot, you can see theres plenty of slack in the brake line.

 

[FellowTraveler]

EXCELLENT: I've seen that steering issue rear it's ugly head when the steering box is not centered that being said I know you know this anyway. I'd like to pick your brain some on the steering box options mine is a 99 and had the VOV option which I deleted long ago however I'd like to know how many different ratios are available and were to get one that is a good re-manufactured or new for my Burb.

 

[C20ELEPHANT]

Ferman, does the SuperSteer idler shaft for your Burb look like just the sealed bearings can be replaced.? Considering one for my 2006 And just have not had one in hands too see.

The brain says I can do the work, the body objects and I ignore common sense and the brain, but, don't have the money to pay some one...

 

[FellowTraveler]

Ferman, does the SuperSteer idler shaft for your Burb look like just the sealed bearings can be replaced.? Considering one for my 2006 And just have not had one in hands too see.

The brain says I can do the work, the body objects and I ignore common sense and the brain, but, don't have the money to pay some one...

The SS idler bracket has tapered wheel bearings and should last the lifetime of the vehicle I've used this for some time now makes a big difference.

 

[C20ELEPHANT]

I have had my Elephant for 20 years, if I stay on the same path for my 2006 I doubt the grease in those bearings will still be there...
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[FellowTraveler]

I have had my Elephant for 20 years, if I stay on the same path for my 2006 I doubt the grease in those bearings will still be there...
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Easy to repack too............that image is of the 1500 bracket, I forget how many stock idler brackets I had gone through on my Burb but I can say it was many only other issues I see are those addressed by FERM's new posts and I do use Energy Suspension control arm bushings black graphite.

 

[FellowTraveler]

I'l be looking into installing a lower pitman arm bearing/bracket like on the Dodge Rams to my Burb too I've seen some nice retrofits in the GMT400 eve though the space is tight.

 

[Burning oil]

The SuperSteer and Elephant are two diff companies?
Got links where you bought them? I have looked at SS in the past but have a hard time swallowing the price. Are they worth it?

 

[Burning oil]

I have had my Elephant for 20 years, if I stay on the same path for my 2006 I doubt the grease in those bearings will still be there...
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Wait a minute! I just deduced what I said and what you said.
You refer to your truck as an elephant! I thought you were saying the part you owned was called an "Elephant" . I had never heard of that so thought maybe it was another company.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I got the supersteer kit from rvupgrades. The price IS hard to swallow, but I don't want to put the coal to it in 4X4 again, and destroy another idler support bracket doing so. Cost me about $425 for the supersteer and brace kit. Yes it is all bearings inside, and to me is worth it compared to the lightweight idler support our trucks came with stock. The newer GMT-800 came with an idler support bracket that is over twice the strength of ours, and it isn't as important to change them out as it is on our trucks. I know most here don't have the steering problems I have simply due to the kind of torque I'm trying to hold in 4 wheel drive. I started to do the poly bushings, but my wife would be BEYOND PISSED, if they squeeked, and she had to listen to it while riding. So rubber went back in it as they work, and are nice and quiet.

As to the box, the only other time I've encountered this was with a DODGE, and it ended up being a pump. I don't think this one is though because I had no issues with my last two steering boxes. I might try the updated pump valve that increases pump output and see what that does. But to put that in in the BURB is a PITA! I have to pull my pump off as I just don't have the room to get to the backside of the pump. I had to replace the high pressure line to the booster(the valve is behind that), and I ended up doing it when I did the steering because the only way to reach the line nut was through the steering linkage opening. One of the downfalls of a swapped truck. It was nice being back behind the wheel of my BURB last night. And most all of bump steer is gone now that I got the slop out of the steering. I didn't think my front end was that bad when I checked it, but after rebuilding it I can't believe how much tighter it is now, and how much better it drives.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

EXCELLENT: I've seen that steering issue rear it's ugly head when the steering box is not centered that being said I know you know this anyway. I'd like to pick your brain some on the steering box options mine is a 99 and had the VOV option which I deleted long ago however I'd like to know how many different ratios are available and were to get one that is a good re-manufactured or new for my Burb.

As far as options go, the stock box is a 15:1 ratio(3 turns lock to lock). You can also use the DODGE version from the mid 90's which is an 18:1(4 turns lock to lock), but I'm not sure if theres enough slack in the clockspring to allow for the extra 1/2 turn either way at the end of it's travel. REDHEAD said they can also do a small piston conversion into the heavier box, and do a 12:1 steering ratio conversion in them, but didn't reccomend it for 3/4 ton and bigger because of how much faster the steering ratio is. There is also the AGR options, but I would NEVER go that route again. After doign some digging, my box wearing out prematurely seems to be the norm with them. They sold the same box for the DODGE, and over on the DODGE boards, the 3/4 ton and up guys CURSE the AGR box. They seem to fair OK in light weight half ton trucks, but not so well in bigger. There options are there superbox 1 for offroading and limited street use which is a 12:1 box with max steering assist. The superbox 2 for street use with a variable ratio 13-16:1 steering setup which was AWESOME at first, but quickly wore aout. It was nice though as it wasn't that reactive on center, but as soon as you got off center it turned faster. Asked redhead about it, and there response was this type of setup was never meant for trucks, and simply won't hold up(like mine and many others have found out). And there final option is the rock ram which has the ports to go to an external steering ram for extra assist directly at the linkage. Theres a few other rebuilders out there, but they all offer the same options.

 

[SmithvilleD]

Here's a link to one of the best articles I've found on steering boxes. Toward the end, there's an image showing how the various ratio's are achieved & showing rack piston's with constant ratio & variable ratio teeth. Looking at the variable teeth profile, it makes sense that design wouldn't be as durable under heavier stresses.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/power-steering-103/

Since I see aftermarket kits that upgrade the Dodge trucks to the newer Delphi 680 box & that box was used in GM HD trucks (maybe 2007.5 up), I wonder if that box bolts to our frame mount & uses a pitman arm of similar geometry to GMT400/800? Think at least one of the hose fittings is different. Many racers have gone to this newer style steering box.

I read one report vaguely mentioning a GM TSB for a Tahoe that recommended the newer box, and a couple fittings. At some point, I'll get one of these boxes from the salvage yard & confirm what's what.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Talked to redhead, and they made a not in my file about it, but want me to drive it for awhile before replacing it to see if it works itself out or not. I did tell them it seemed to get better after driving it some, and they said many times they work there way out, so he doesn't want to replace it just yet.

 

[FellowTraveler]

As far as options go, the stock box is a 15:1 ratio(3 turns lock to lock). You can also use the DODGE version from the mid 90's which is an 18:1(4 turns lock to lock), but I'm not sure if theres enough slack in the clockspring to allow for the extra 1/2 turn either way at the end of it's travel. REDHEAD said they can also do a small piston conversion into the heavier box, and do a 12:1 steering ratio conversion in them, but didn't reccomend it for 3/4 ton and bigger because of how much faster the steering ratio is. There is also the AGR options, but I would NEVER go that route again. After doign some digging, my box wearing out prematurely seems to be the norm with them. They sold the same box for the DODGE, and over on the DODGE boards, the 3/4 ton and up guys CURSE the AGR box. They seem to fair OK in light weight half ton trucks, but not so well in bigger. There options are there superbox 1 for offroading and limited street use which is a 12:1 box with max steering assist. The superbox 2 for street use with a variable ratio 13-16:1 steering setup which was AWESOME at first, but quickly wore aout. It was nice though as it wasn't that reactive on center, but as soon as you got off center it turned faster. Asked redhead about it, and there response was this type of setup was never meant for trucks, and simply won't hold up(like mine and many others have found out). And there final option is the rock ram which has the ports to go to an external steering ram for extra assist directly at the linkage. Theres a few other rebuilders out there, but they all offer the same options.

Thanks FERM, I had gone through the 4th box now and because this Burb is a keeper I'd like to finally fix the box issue.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Here's a link to one of the best articles I've found on steering boxes. Toward the end, there's an image showing how the various ratio's are achieved & showing rack piston's with constant ratio & variable ratio teeth. Looking at the variable teeth profile, it makes sense that design wouldn't be as durable under heavier stresses.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/power-steering-103/

Since I see aftermarket kits that upgrade the Dodge trucks to the newer Delphi 680 box & that box was used in GM HD trucks (maybe 2007.5 up), I wonder if that box bolts to our frame mount & uses a pitman arm of similar geometry to GMT400/800? Think at least one of the hose fittings is different. Many racers have gone to this newer style steering box.

I read one report vaguely mentioning a GM TSB for a Tahoe that recommended the newer box, and a couple fittings. At some point, I'll get one of these boxes from the salvage yard & confirm what's what.

I see the Delphi 680 is out of stock.

 

[SmithvilleD]

Meaning out of stock from Borgeson?

 

[FellowTraveler]

Meaning out of stock from Borgeson?

Yes!

 

[C20ELEPHANT]

dieselpowerproducts.com has the RedHead 680 series steering gear, website does not state out of stock. I believe this was GM's fix for lack of assist in parking lot maneuvers in the 2001-2007 trucks. They also went to a 12 vane pump in late 2007 NBS truck.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/7509097-post6.html

http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/p-9682-red-head-steering-gear-box-99-13-gm-2500hd-3500.aspx

 

[SmithvilleD]

I would interpret the RedHead 680 ad that says the new box only fits 1999-2010 to mean that the 680 box on the newer GM 2500/3500HD trucks has the same bolt pattern to the frame as the earlier Saginaw/Delphi 800 series steering gear boxes.

Here is a pic of the GMT400 splined input shaft (swapped into a Delphi 800 out of an '04 K2500) & the GMT800 smooth w/ two flats input shaft. So at a minimum, to try the 680 box, the lower steering shaft coupling would have to be adapted to the 680 input shaft's smooth/2 flats shape.

 

[FellowTraveler]

I would interpret the RedHead 680 ad that says the new box only fits 1999-2010 to mean that the 680 box on the newer GM 2500/3500HD trucks has the same bolt pattern to the frame as the earlier Saginaw/Delphi 800 series steering gear boxes.

Here is a pic of the GMT400 splined input shaft (swapped into a Delphi 800 out of an '04 K2500) & the GMT800 smooth w/ two flats input shaft. So at a minimum, to try the 680 box, the lower steering shaft coupling would have to be adapted to the 680 input shaft's smooth/2 flats shape.

Interesting!