Did you gap the rings or just install them as is ?
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Rebuild about done
- Thread starter Rodd
- Start date
Rodd
Recruit
Just installed them. The machine shop gapped them when they resleeved the block and balanced everything. When my son pulled the pistons on Friday he checked the gapping of the rings and they were all within spec.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
You are supposed to break in gapless rings with their powder. Most engines people just use oil or some oil concoction mix. Did they use the powder?
Rodd
Recruit
No. I didn't receive any powder with them. That wouldn't cause the discrepancy with the compression on each bank would it?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
It isn’t with it. You buy it separately like with any break in material. A container is enough to do multiple engines.
It helps seat the rings faster - so I am wondering if maybe you had a couple cylinders not fully seated?
It helps seat the rings faster - so I am wondering if maybe you had a couple cylinders not fully seated?
Rodd
Recruit
I built it myself. I wasn't aware of the powder. I will ask them about it.
Rodd
Recruit
It's been a while. My son is back in town working on the engine. We decided to forego the gapless rings for stock rings. I did talk to the local machine shop who does most of the 6.5's. They are also a race shop. The guy said that they do lots of gapless rings and every once in a while they have compression issues.
Once we got the rods and pistons out the #1 bearing tang had been flattened out. Not sure how that happened. We replaced all the bearings and rings and got it put back together and installed. It is purring like a kitten with no smoke. There is one issue however, there are 2 codes that keep coming up. One is constant - 88 TDCO error. No matter how far we advance or retard the timing the code is constant. The other code is 34 the stepper motor fault. When the IP is advanced it throws the stepper motor code, however when it is retarded it goes away. Thinking it may be the IP. One other thought. I have 3 used pumps. One leaks underneath, so that's a no go. One came off my burb about a month ago because the stepper motor screw came loose and caused it to fail. The other had a stripped fuel line. My son took one of the fittings off the leaking one and put it on the one that currently in the truck. Not sure if the IP needs to be calibrated or not. We could also reinstall the stepper motor from the burb and use that. Not sure if the stepper motor needs to be calibrated.
One other issue is the head gasket leaked on the passenger side. My son used clevite composite head gaskets. It has ARP head studs. He followed the instructions ARP sent with the studs. It didn't leak with the felpro HG that came with our rebuild kit. With the HG's both torqued properly it appears to be over pressurizing the coolant system and it spits out the expansion tank like there's a blown HG. What do you guys think?
Once we got the rods and pistons out the #1 bearing tang had been flattened out. Not sure how that happened. We replaced all the bearings and rings and got it put back together and installed. It is purring like a kitten with no smoke. There is one issue however, there are 2 codes that keep coming up. One is constant - 88 TDCO error. No matter how far we advance or retard the timing the code is constant. The other code is 34 the stepper motor fault. When the IP is advanced it throws the stepper motor code, however when it is retarded it goes away. Thinking it may be the IP. One other thought. I have 3 used pumps. One leaks underneath, so that's a no go. One came off my burb about a month ago because the stepper motor screw came loose and caused it to fail. The other had a stripped fuel line. My son took one of the fittings off the leaking one and put it on the one that currently in the truck. Not sure if the IP needs to be calibrated or not. We could also reinstall the stepper motor from the burb and use that. Not sure if the stepper motor needs to be calibrated.
One other issue is the head gasket leaked on the passenger side. My son used clevite composite head gaskets. It has ARP head studs. He followed the instructions ARP sent with the studs. It didn't leak with the felpro HG that came with our rebuild kit. With the HG's both torqued properly it appears to be over pressurizing the coolant system and it spits out the expansion tank like there's a blown HG. What do you guys think?
@JiFaire The following thread needs to be a sticky in the technical reference library. I have suggested it before years ago and it was overlooked. It may have just cost Rodd a re-do on the head gaskets.
https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/head-studs-what-will-stop-the-leak.47879/
@Rodd
First off this is not likely the answer for the pressure in the cooling system you are asking but a future problem.
The instructions from ARP as I recall are HORRIBLE!!! They do not call for tightening the studs into the engine. Studs that go into wet holes. Further the crap they use as a sealer is just that.
So you need to use a good sealer and tighten the damn studs into the block before putting the nuts on. I had success (that predated the thread) with red and blue locktight however better suggestions are in the thread. I double nutted the studs and tightened them into the block.
@Twisted Steel Performance just snugs them down as he posted.
I would remove the fan belt, thermostat assembly and then start the engine looking for what side the bubbles are coming from. Maybe both sides. You will know what side to look closer at if it's one or the other.
Then, because of the above ARP instructions, I would pull both valve covers off and pressurize the cooling system to see if any of the head studs are leaking coolant.
Pressurizing the cooling system
Can you clarify this? Leaking coolant outside, combustion pressure into coolant, or what? I can't see how a different gasket is a cure. As you continue to have problems I am suggesting something else is going on.
Best I understand you had bent valves causing your compression loss? I haven't seen anything condemning your gapless rings.
In the two 6.X IDI's I did with gapless rings and the 5.9 Cummins didn't have a powder. Didn't need it as they seated fine. Not opposed to new and better methods, however, it's not the OP's problem. One engine repair was very sketchy that the gapless rings cleaned the blowby up in.
dbrannon79
I'm getting there!
you can also pull the GP's out and pull the thermostat housing off filling the block to the level with coolant or water. then use the compression tester to pressurize each cylinder one by one to determine where the head gasket is not sealing. iirc there is a different spec to use on how far to torque with head studs along with what WW said about sealing and tightening the studs into the block.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
When you said “The guy said that they do lots of gapless rings and every once in a while they have compression issues.” I almost lost my mind.
They are not doing something right. When there is issues in a beater engine shops recommend the added expense of gapless as a fix! It is highly possible they simply don’t do them right - not that the whole shop doesn’t know how but one guy who doesn’t know and doesn’t know that he doesn’t know…
Without re-reading the whole thread again: were the heads new and if so what kind? Were the brass tubes inserted in the steam pockets? Was both block and heads milled to straight? 110% sure torque procedure was followed perfectly?
Absolutely pull the crossover and id which side.
Do a full compression test.
If detecting exhaust gases- kill one cylinder at a time and id where it is coming from. Use just water no coolant. Drain water between testing each time you run on 7 cylinders if needed. You need to identify the source.
They are not doing something right. When there is issues in a beater engine shops recommend the added expense of gapless as a fix! It is highly possible they simply don’t do them right - not that the whole shop doesn’t know how but one guy who doesn’t know and doesn’t know that he doesn’t know…
Without re-reading the whole thread again: were the heads new and if so what kind? Were the brass tubes inserted in the steam pockets? Was both block and heads milled to straight? 110% sure torque procedure was followed perfectly?
Absolutely pull the crossover and id which side.
Do a full compression test.
If detecting exhaust gases- kill one cylinder at a time and id where it is coming from. Use just water no coolant. Drain water between testing each time you run on 7 cylinders if needed. You need to identify the source.
jrsavoie
Recruit
Didn't Chris have really good instructions on installing head studs?
Rodd
Recruit
The compression is currently all within 10psi of 400.
The heads are p400 heads that I got from chris. I had them checked out after the compression issue the first time and they were good. No bent valves.
The water leaking is internal. Nothing leaking on the outside.
After reading WW's thread on installing the head gaskets and talking to my son, he thinks the issues are with the arp instructions. He thinks the water is getting through the studs. He said on the semi studs he does, they use a different sealant on the threads and never has a problem with those, but that stuff is in idaho at his shop and he just used the arp stuff.
Any thoughts on the IP codes?
The heads are p400 heads that I got from chris. I had them checked out after the compression issue the first time and they were good. No bent valves.
The water leaking is internal. Nothing leaking on the outside.
After reading WW's thread on installing the head gaskets and talking to my son, he thinks the issues are with the arp instructions. He thinks the water is getting through the studs. He said on the semi studs he does, they use a different sealant on the threads and never has a problem with those, but that stuff is in idaho at his shop and he just used the arp stuff.
Any thoughts on the IP codes?
dbrannon79
I'm getting there!
@Rodd what are you using to set TDCO? tech 2 or the GMTDscan on a computer? lots of fellas try to use a Snap-on scanner for this but they are known to show incorrect timing readings and why folks have so many issues getting it right.
what has worked for me and seems to be the method in the GM books comes in two steps. the first step is the harder part. when you start the learn process (before triggering the time set) your TDCO will zero out. this is where you play with moving the IP till the scanner shows "Actual timing" is as close as possible to 3.5 degrees (or it is -3.5, someone refresh my memory) once you have it there, then you trigger the time set function. the engine has to be up to normal operating temp before attempting this.
any missing or fouling cylinders or other codes must be taken care of before hand. so I would suggest getting the head gasket / stud issue worked out first.
The two codes you are seeing are due to the IP too far out of range for the PCM to find timing. the stepper motor will move the optic sensor in the pump one way or the other trying to find timing. if the IP is too far one way or the other it will set this code along with code 88. when you trigger the learn part on the scanner this puts the stepper motor in a "default" position allowing you to rotate the IP to achieve the 3.5 degrees. remember moving the IP the width of a strand of hair is about equal to 2-3 degrees of timing, it doesn't take much to get it way out of spec. this is where it can be a hair pulling experience.
do not attempt to move the IP with the engine running! although I did with mine not knowing any better. I did mine like you would an old school gasser leaving the two bottom nuts loose and snugging up the top one enough I could bump it while it was running. later I learned for the guys here I could have caused catastrophic damage doing it that way.
what has worked for me and seems to be the method in the GM books comes in two steps. the first step is the harder part. when you start the learn process (before triggering the time set) your TDCO will zero out. this is where you play with moving the IP till the scanner shows "Actual timing" is as close as possible to 3.5 degrees (or it is -3.5, someone refresh my memory) once you have it there, then you trigger the time set function. the engine has to be up to normal operating temp before attempting this.
any missing or fouling cylinders or other codes must be taken care of before hand. so I would suggest getting the head gasket / stud issue worked out first.
The two codes you are seeing are due to the IP too far out of range for the PCM to find timing. the stepper motor will move the optic sensor in the pump one way or the other trying to find timing. if the IP is too far one way or the other it will set this code along with code 88. when you trigger the learn part on the scanner this puts the stepper motor in a "default" position allowing you to rotate the IP to achieve the 3.5 degrees. remember moving the IP the width of a strand of hair is about equal to 2-3 degrees of timing, it doesn't take much to get it way out of spec. this is where it can be a hair pulling experience.
do not attempt to move the IP with the engine running! although I did with mine not knowing any better. I did mine like you would an old school gasser leaving the two bottom nuts loose and snugging up the top one enough I could bump it while it was running. later I learned for the guys here I could have caused catastrophic damage doing it that way.
dbrannon79
I'm getting there!
My post above with GMTDscan is for 94-95 only OBD1 trucks. I read your signature and see all yours are 96+ OBD2. there is a procedure to do the TDCO without a scanner for them but is not the best way. use a tech 2 for them and it will make your life much better 
I read combustion pressure in the cooling tank not water in oil. Do you have both problems?
Rodd
Recruit
Mine is a 95. The gmtd is what were using. We will attempt to get the timing in the 3.5 range before doing a time set or set the tdco.
So have you fixed the water getting in the motor problem?
Seems we have always said not to follow arp's sealant directions, I know for years I have offered a better and proven way...
Rodd
Recruit
Yes the water issue has been figured out. It never got into the oil that we can tell. The oil is not milky. Hopefully the black permatex will do the trick.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I like to use the permatex No.1 that comes in a squeeze tube for headbolts, any bolts, that goes to water/coolant jackets.
It is a brownish color.
But IDK about these stud things. Maybe My old tried and true system would not slow down a coolant leak past the threads of a stud.
