Project 350HP update

[6.5quest]

So I figured I would start giving updates as to the buildup of Teds truck. For those of you who read MaxxTorque magazine you might remember the article on "The Best 6.2 Rebuild". This is the truck that the motor went into.

Nitrous system install 100% complete (not tested yet)
Snow MPG-Max Water/Meth 60% complete (waiting on upgraded pump)
Heath propane system 90% complete (just need to run feed line)
FS-2500 oil bypass system 0% complete (waiting on parts)
A-Team Turbo 0% complete (waiting on parts from ceramic coating)
5 new Danin Optix gauges 0% complete (waiting for parts)
High idle switch 0% complete

I will try and add pics as soon as possible. Again if anyone has any good ideas above and beyond what we are doing please let me know.

Thanks,

Ian

 

[Rodd]

Ian,

What does ceramic coating (if anything) do other than look good and make it easy to clean?

 

[buddy]

ceramic coating is used to improve heat rejection or heat retention depending on the application location and the heat source. Like on the pistons you are rejecting heat from combustion, but if you coat the exhaust manifolds you want it to retain the heat inside the exhaust.

 

[6.5quest]

Good answer!

 

[JiFaire]

Ceramic coating is also often used to improve flow characteristics and reject build-up... ie - in exhaust manifolds, in turbo drive-side chambers, or intake passages.

 

[SmithvilleD]

Hi Ian,

Are you guys considering using the high-heat ID coating/thermal barrier on the inside surfaces of the exh ports, exh manifolds, & the turbine housing?

I did Cermakrome on my exh manifolds, turbine housing, & crossover pipe, but passed on adding the additional, internal thermal barrier due to time constraints. Kept adding details which kept pushing finishing up the project further into the future.

Would want to talk to the guys at Techline to hear how well the internal coating sticks as some product's delamination can risk turbine wheel damage.

 

[sshewins]

A duh question here, is it possible for the coating to flake off and nuke a turbo?

 

[axeman]

ive never heard of that issue. Do know that performance coatings in auburn wa. only does inner and outer together on exhaust because of warrety issues.

 

[6.5quest]

Hi Ian,

Are you guys considering using the high-heat ID coating/thermal barrier on the inside surfaces of the exh ports, exh manifolds, & the turbine housing?

I did Cermakrome on my exh manifolds, turbine housing, & crossover pipe, but passed on adding the additional, internal thermal barrier due to time constraints. Kept adding details which kept pushing finishing up the project further into the future.

Would want to talk to the guys at Techline to hear how well the internal coating sticks as some product's delamination can risk turbine wheel damage.

All of the coating was done by Performance Coatings, as for if they did the ID of the exh. manifolds I am not sure maybe the owner of the truck will comment here and let us know. The turbo is only and exterior coating plus I am putting on a turbo heat wrap kit on the exh. side of the turbo.

I also spoke with the owner of Fuel Preporator who makes the Airdog fuel systems and was able to get a sponsorship from him. He is sending over a limited edition Airdog 150 fuel pump/air,water seporator with adjustable pressure regulator. This system plus the Feed the Beast mod should supply all the fuel this truck could ever need.

The biggest problem I need to solve is finding out exactly how much propane, nitrous, and water/meth to add. On my personal truck I was using a 75 shot of nitrous, only 10% methanol, and very little propane. This truck has slightly lower compression, a Fluidampr balancer, and a much bigger turbo so I have to rethink all the ratio's.

 

[buddy]

Are you guys considering using the high-heat ID coating/thermal barrier on the inside surfaces of the exh ports, exh manifolds, & the turbine housing?

This is covered in the MaxxTorque article. They had the entire thing Extrude Honed, intake, heads and exhaust manifolds. That is essentially port and polish.

 

[SmithvilleD]

Yep, Ted had PM'd (Thanks) reminding me of the MaxxTorque article. I'd read it multiple times when the article came out, but should have reread before posting so my question was more specific.

The ATT out for coating on the list, is a new wrinkle beyond the article. I asked about considering internal coatings, thinking specifically of the turbine housing - because I've yet to find anybody that's tried this (and will talk about it) & has seen how the coating held up inside a diesel turbo turbine.

In addition to the external exhaust coatings, I've used the internal coatings on piston tops, valve faces/combustion chamber, & exhaust ports in gas turbo engines that saw higher EGT's than our 6.5's would tolerate & survive - and on teardown, they'd held up well with no delamination.

But the company that makes these materials couldn't recommend their use inside the turbine housing for the same warranty related reasons mentioned above. They company tech guy didn't think it was likely their internal product would delaminate & damage turbine blades, but they didn't have enough empirical experience/data to represent the product for that use.

 

[Turbine Doc]

When I was in the turbine business, ceramic coat is/was used there with moderate success coating inner combustion liners and turbine blading, still working the bugs out, 1st attempts were 100% coat, but due to thermal transients, and the ceramic being a "hard coat" it was not happy with big temp swings would crack due to thermal shock liberate and due to it's hard nature become DOD material.

Current process there now has thinner coating on targeted areas which does erode over time, but extends the life of hot gas path components 1/3-1/2 longer service life than uncoated turbine blades, nozzles, & combustors. Ceramics have almost no "elasticity" work well on basicilly non moving parts like piston tops, things with dynamic forces like rotating mass in a turbine wheel ceramics applied to those are happiest with constant temperatures ie "base loaded" power generation machines.

My guess as to why no internal housing coatings is the risk of ceramic coatings, "hard material" coming off and damaging the turbine wheel rotating at high speed, this is an assumption, to get ceramic to adhere properly requires hospital cleanliness of the part being treated, and the material being coated has to be heat treated to the nth degreee for the coating to remain.

I've been on copy for several post failure analysis reports of turbine parts that failed because heat treatment required said preheat for 5 minutes, some have gone under, & some have gone over and the heat treatment coatings be it platinum aluminide or ceramic treatments have failed.

So extrapolating from this experience I would surmise that while possible to internally coat, that cost to do such or care required to do it properly with ecxeption of a "custom order application" is probably out of reach that most would be willing to pay for.

External coatings if they flake off won't cause much harm, in things like a inner turbo housing also I imagine since application of a coating actually builds up material it might be difficult with most typical application processes to maintain coating thickness in a manner that does not encroach on tight clearances of things like turbine seals, and case to rotor fitment.

I was going to have my GM-8 external coated back in 2004, at the time coating that Jet Hot was using then was having issues with flaking off due to thermal transients cracking the coating, their recommendation was thermal blanket, until they got issues resolved, after Katrina our local Jet Hot shop got flooded out and never returned so I really haven't put much more effort myself back into that pet project, since then my ATT has replaced the GM-8, which one day will get external coating if fo no other reason than to cover the rust color of the bare metal turbo.

 

[635]

If I recall correctly, the guys that did the Buick GNX did ceramic coating on the turbine blades.

But then I could be wrong!

When I first talked with Extrude-hone I asked about getting the turbine blades done but they were against it because their coating was not thin enough.

 

[SmithvilleD]

I've heard rumors of racers internally coating turbine housings, using a coating originally designed to coat the inside of (chrome - exterior) headers intended to reduce "bluing" of the chrome. I think it's flowed on & then the part is put in a vibratory polisher & the media polishes/smooths the interior coating. Just haven't found anybody that's personally done this.

Certainly controlling application thickness on the coatings I have experience with is key in avoiding delamination. With the materials I've used, anything remotely thick enough to be relevent in turbine to housing clearances would crack off the outer layer.

The challenge is getting the tough to access nooks-n-crannies covered without building too much thickness on the areas more easily hit when spraying the material. A competent coating shop should have no durability/cracking/corrosion problems when applying the Cermakrome/Cermet coatings to our 6.5 diesel turbine housings. I attached a pic of the stock Gm-4 turbine housing I did for my truck - after ~3k miles. If you look close, you can see the texture difference compared to the bead blasted Al compressor housing.

I've been applying Cermakrome on my project engine's exhaust manifolds for almost 10 years now - for the same reasons TD mentions wanting to do his ATT turbine housing. It stops corrosion & stays looking good longterm.

Ted, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the durability of the dark/satin coating on your exh manifolds? It's supposed to be a superior thermal barrier as compared to the Cermet/more common silver colored header coatings. The dark/satin coatings I tried first proved to be not so scratch/chip resistant until they'd been thru many exh heat cycles - so getting them installed & preserving the appearance was difficult.

It's been many years since I tried the satin coatings, so they may well be improved by now.

While I could see the potential durability benefits of coatings on gas turbine blades, I'm not certain what could be gained from coating our turbo turbine wheels as they'll most likely outlast the engine?

 

[6.5quest]

Finally got Ted's ATT back together from the ceramic coaters and then did a heat wrap on the exh. side and downpipe section. Compressor section has chromex and exh./downpipe has black velvet finish.

 

[Slim Shady]

Sure looks perrty, can't wait till you guys break the hp numbers.

 

[6.5quest]

Sure looks perrty, can't wait till you guys break the hp numbers.

I think the turbo will be a big factor in our goal. Question for you, I PMd TD about this earlier and wanted to get your thoughts. With this non-wastegated turbo and the fact that we are adding nitrous, propane, and water/meth, do you think we should put a blow-off valve on the intake to help from over boosting? I was able to reach over 20 psi with a GM-4 on my truck and didn't want to be putting 25+ psi on this heads. This truck does have 20:1 comp and ARP head studs.

 

[Matt Bachand]

I think the turbo will be a big factor in our goal. Question for you, I PMd TD about this earlier and wanted to get your thoughts. With this non-wastegated turbo and the fact that we are adding nitrous, propane, and water/meth, do you think we should put a blow-off valve on the intake to help from over boosting? I was able to reach over 20 psi with a GM-4 on my truck and didn't want to be putting 25+ psi on this heads. This truck does have 20:1 comp and ARP head studs.

I would say it without a doubt wont hurt anything to putt a BOV, only protect to do so. You may be running into uncharted water here with all the drugs, I would add one just to be safe. I have read many threads of 17+ PSI with att... better be safe with a simple BOV.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

Nice looking job.

Missy

 

[buddy]

My GM4 would build more boost than my ATT, even with smaller exhaust. So you might not have a problem. You also have less backpressure and waste heat so it can handle more boost safely IMO.