I'm thinking of installing a pre start oiler pump on the P400 in the Burb, what's everybody's thoughts on these? I have one that I took off of an airboat with a Continential aircraft engine in it several years ago. I was thinking of using a relay triggered from the glow plug relay to run it whenever the glow plug light is on. I would have to plumb a pickup line from the oil pan and a supply T into the return oil cooler line by the oil filter. I'm thinking there would have to be a check valve at that connection also. There is a plug in the block near there that may could be used, I need to investigate oil passage circuit. Give me some thoughts and opinions please.
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PERMANENTLY MOUNTED PRE START OILER PUMP
- Thread starter spdgofast
- Start date
Other than the camshaft and cam bearings ... wear simply isn't the end stage engine failure reason. IMO you are adding complexity that's one failed line blow out from ruining the engine with 0 oil pressure. I suggest it's unnecessary. Otherwise I really don't see harm in it.
Having had these engines sit around a long time and then pulling the oil pan: They are still dripping oil. Thus my unnecessary comment.
Wear I have seen is from abuse, loss of timing diesel washing cylinders, and high oil temps failing the oil.
Here is a detailed study of engine oil pressure on cold starts, with soot loaded oil, etc. IMO you are better off putting gapless rings in the engine to reduce soot and increase oil pressure. 5W-40 weights also pump faster in cold...
Having had these engines sit around a long time and then pulling the oil pan: They are still dripping oil. Thus my unnecessary comment.
Wear I have seen is from abuse, loss of timing diesel washing cylinders, and high oil temps failing the oil.
Here is a detailed study of engine oil pressure on cold starts, with soot loaded oil, etc. IMO you are better off putting gapless rings in the engine to reduce soot and increase oil pressure. 5W-40 weights also pump faster in cold...
Low-Temperature oil Pumpability... in a 6.2. Internal oil flow info.
Low-Temperature oil Pumpability... in a 6.2. Internal oil flow info. Link found at...
www.thetruckstop.us
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I like preoiler/ oil accumulators.
A video of a guy that forgot to turn his on in road corse so one without then with. Watch the oil gauge.
This forum doesn’t see many that road corse, but offroad yes.
There are also people doing diy ones with an electric motor only for pre-start. Simple and provided quality hydraulic hoses are used will never suffer a reason to make the truck break down if it fails. I was thinking about doing electric motor to pre-oil before start, then using same pump for running a centrifuge to get the 110psi but too much stuff to fit in a hummer.
The 6.5 is ok with low pressure according to gm, but we saw them remove the loud cooling fan they needed for nuisance. They removed the numbers from the temperature gauge so warranty demands would be less, then later simply changed spec to a higher number which proved that omcost the military tons of engines.
Of the 6.5 I have seen Torn apart because of low oil pressure, cam bearings is where it went.
yes added cost, and more failure points are added. But
A video of a guy that forgot to turn his on in road corse so one without then with. Watch the oil gauge.
There are also people doing diy ones with an electric motor only for pre-start. Simple and provided quality hydraulic hoses are used will never suffer a reason to make the truck break down if it fails. I was thinking about doing electric motor to pre-oil before start, then using same pump for running a centrifuge to get the 110psi but too much stuff to fit in a hummer.
The 6.5 is ok with low pressure according to gm, but we saw them remove the loud cooling fan they needed for nuisance. They removed the numbers from the temperature gauge so warranty demands would be less, then later simply changed spec to a higher number which proved that omcost the military tons of engines.
Of the 6.5 I have seen Torn apart because of low oil pressure, cam bearings is where it went.
yes added cost, and more failure points are added. But
If I were to do it I would use high quality oil lines and connections and maybe a check valve for insurance. Just thinking it would eliminate any crank time without good oil pressure therefore extending bearing life, also how about oil being sprayed by the piston squirters before start up? Just a discussion at this time.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Can you show pics of what you have?
Imo cost is the biggest reason to not do it. If you already have most of it...
Imo cost is the biggest reason to not do it. If you already have most of it...
Yea, I'll get some tomorrow Will, it may be aircraft quality but I'm not sure. I was going to ask a pilot buddy of mine if they were used on airplanes much. The one I have would be strictly just to eliminate dry cold starts. I was thinking Amsoil made one also but not sure.
new terminology "ass rock crawlers" LOL
Check these out, I don't know that I would spend the $ for one of these but I like the adjustable on/off pressure switch.
infinityaerospace.com
Pre-Oiler and Back-Up Engine Oil Pump
infinityaerospace.com
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Those look alot like the preoiler I used on my 428, the last link I mean
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Wow, thats tmi.
Yes aircraft use them. That’s where the tech came from. Piston driven aircraft gets heavy turbulence, looses oil pressure and seize engine means emergency landing at best.
but aircraft stuff is always more pricey. Having one already makes it easy. Buying non gold plated aircraft stuff so it’s affordable just takes so
What could go wrong.
If using the electric solenoid and it fails, the entire oil system acts like you don’t have that added.
If accumulator fails by oring or bladder tear, you are low one quart of oil.
If the oil hose fails, you loose engine oil- this is the danger. So spend the money and have a high pressure hydraulic oil hose made.Think of it like the oil cooler hoses.
If electric fails to solenoid it’s just like you never had it.
if you use the pump instead of the accumulator then you remove the bad seal stealing one quart from the engine.
also think about after you do an oil change.
Yes aircraft use them. That’s where the tech came from. Piston driven aircraft gets heavy turbulence, looses oil pressure and seize engine means emergency landing at best.
but aircraft stuff is always more pricey. Having one already makes it easy. Buying non gold plated aircraft stuff so it’s affordable just takes so
What could go wrong.
If using the electric solenoid and it fails, the entire oil system acts like you don’t have that added.
If accumulator fails by oring or bladder tear, you are low one quart of oil.
If the oil hose fails, you loose engine oil- this is the danger. So spend the money and have a high pressure hydraulic oil hose made.Think of it like the oil cooler hoses.
If electric fails to solenoid it’s just like you never had it.
if you use the pump instead of the accumulator then you remove the bad seal stealing one quart from the engine.
also think about after you do an oil change.
Here are some pics of the pump and how I'm thinking of plumbing. This thing has been laying around my shop and when I blew it off with air it blew all of the paint off the pump portion. I don't think I will use this pump for a permanently mounted setup due to it's size and age, also it would take up too much real estate under the truck which I'm pretty short on being it's a suburban with a cat pre fuel filter, lift pump and 6"X 26" stainless compressed air tank on the drivers side and the exhaust on the passenger side. I would not even think of mounting something like this on the outside of the frame subject to road debris and such. The other two photo's are the one where I would go into the block possibly with a check valve (not for sure if needed) and the other is the black dot on the oil pan. I would drill and tap and put a #6 AN fitting there. I did a test with the pan level, 4 quarts just barely covers where the hole would be but 4.5 quarts puts the level about 1" above the hole. Not sure if this location is low enough in the pan but the pan is cast for something to go there I think, oil level sensor? maybe for the Hummer? Sorry the last two pics are upside down.
Attachments
So I was studying the oil flow schematic and from what I understand the operation of the two OEM bypass valves located just above the oil filter operate as follows, one is if the oil cooler becomes blocked or oil density (from cold weather) is above 9-11 psi it opens and bypasses the oil cooler and directs oil to the engine. The other bypass valve operates the same but it is if the oil filter becomes blocked and the pressure reaches 16-19 psi it therefore bypasses to the engine. So under normal operation I would think that there would be no positive pressure to the port that I am considering using, but under bypass situation there would be whatever positive pressure that the mechanical oil pump is producing. Therefore either the preoiler pump would have to prevent reverse oil pressure bypassing back to the oil pan or a check valve would have to be installed to prevent such a reverse bypass condition. Open to opinions, correct my if I'm wrong. Does anyone know anything about a oil level sensor in the pan on the Hummers?
I forgot to add that the oil provided by the preoiler pump with this configuration would be unfiltered directly from the oil pan. Which I believe the benefits would outweigh the negatives, especially in a new p400 with Total Seal rings that I will be running.
I don't think it would harm a thing, fact is I plan to use one, heck if someone only thinks of the "what all could go wrong" part then why would you risk oil cooler lines at all, could they not rupture.... if someone is that worried they should just leave the motor a sealed unit... but then the oil pump shaft could break...
I think the pre oilers are well worth the cost for someone that wants the best possible protection long term ...
I already have some of the parts from these folks, and will get the rest of what I need from them..
www.cantonracingproducts.com
I think the pre oilers are well worth the cost for someone that wants the best possible protection long term ...
I already have some of the parts from these folks, and will get the rest of what I need from them..
Canton Racing Products | Performance Oil Pans, Coolant Tanks, Accusump, Oil Filters...
Our products solve your engines' oil and cooling problems. Improve your engines oil pressure, oil temperature, and coolant system with Canton Racing Products.
www.cantonracingproducts.com
And I would activate it with one of these probably mounted in the oil pressure OPS relocate hose that I already have so I would have easy access to adjust switch pressure switch and it would be in a lower heat location than the oil pressure port in the engine valley under the intake manifold above cylinder 5
Whatcha think?
infinityaerospace.com
Whatcha think?
Pre-Oiler and Back-Up Engine Oil Pump
infinityaerospace.com
Yea, what happens when the front drive shaft cuts loose and takes out the oil filter? Do you know how many Dodge diesel 4x4 trucks that I have seen with a big ass hole in the floor from the front CV joint coming apart? Yea it's from lack of PM ( or not knowing a drive line vibration) LOL which I will never be guilty of but I have been a victim of faulty parts.I don't think it would harm a thing, fact is I plan to use one, heck if someone only thinks of the "what all could go wrong" part then why would you risk oil cooler lines at all, could they not rupture.... if someone is that worried they should just leave the motor a sealed unit... but then the oil pump shaft could break...
I think the pre oilers are well worth the cost for someone that wants the best possible protection long term ...
I already have some of the parts from these folks, and will get the rest of what I need from them..
Canton Racing Products | Performance Oil Pans, Coolant Tanks, Accusump, Oil Filters...
Our products solve your engines' oil and cooling problems. Improve your engines oil pressure, oil temperature, and coolant system with Canton Racing Products.
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Life is full of "what if's" what if frogs had wings....then they wouldn't bump their butt...
The bearing coatings stop dry starts, a pre oiler is like insurance to me when I have so much into a motor and my dually sits for months and only gets cranked when I think about it.. and it's only money...
The bearing coatings stop dry starts, a pre oiler is like insurance to me when I have so much into a motor and my dually sits for months and only gets cranked when I think about it.. and it's only money...
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Yes, my “what could go wrong” was trying to point out the risk is so low and benifits so high that it removes itself from consideration. Imo.
As to hummer/hmmwv low oil in the pans- nope. I wish. I want to add low oil volume, low oil pressure, low coolant volume and high coolant temp all feeding a bright flashing light pointing straight at my eyeball and a loud annoying buzzer screaming straight in my ear hole. I’ve found kits for aircraft a while back but $$$$. So i want to find some reliable and affordable parts.
The coatings, preoiler, warning units are all insurance to try tipping it in my favor for longer engine life with less risk. If a guy had a $250 junkyard engine- wouldn’t be worth it I suppose. Mine will have a touch more than that in it.
I know the low coolant sensor in hummers doesn’t have a strong reputation. Idk how to research what is best. I don’t are if it’s gm, dodge, honda, or what. High reliability without costing 4 digit price tags- which i know one company that makes those. High coolant temp sensor test proven for space flight $4,100. Um. No.
As to hummer/hmmwv low oil in the pans- nope. I wish. I want to add low oil volume, low oil pressure, low coolant volume and high coolant temp all feeding a bright flashing light pointing straight at my eyeball and a loud annoying buzzer screaming straight in my ear hole. I’ve found kits for aircraft a while back but $$$$. So i want to find some reliable and affordable parts.
The coatings, preoiler, warning units are all insurance to try tipping it in my favor for longer engine life with less risk. If a guy had a $250 junkyard engine- wouldn’t be worth it I suppose. Mine will have a touch more than that in it.
I know the low coolant sensor in hummers doesn’t have a strong reputation. Idk how to research what is best. I don’t are if it’s gm, dodge, honda, or what. High reliability without costing 4 digit price tags- which i know one company that makes those. High coolant temp sensor test proven for space flight $4,100. Um. No.