Fords new diesel

[BigBlueChevy]

With the multitude of problems that came up between Ford and Navistar reguarding the 6.0, Ford has begun the construction and testing of its in house built diesel. Code named "Scorpion", this all new V8 6.7L diesel will replace the 6.4 Powerstroke in 2011.

Power output is going to be increased. Going from 350hp/650Ft/lbs of torque, the Scorpion will be generating 390hp and 720ft/lbs of torque. It is also expected to gain an additional 3mpg(stock of course) over the 6.4. Like the 6.7L equipped Dodge Cummins, it will boast a 6 speed automatic transmission. Hopefuilly the Ford Torqueshift will be appropriatly modified and "built" to handle the level of power this truck will be generating stock.

So far, the Scorpion seems to posses some traits similar to the 4.5L Baby Duramax. Intake and Exhaust flow has been "reversed" first off. Meaning air is brought into the engine externally and exhaust is internally routed into a compound arranged twin turbo setup. This sits in the V of the engine to reduce compressor whine. Cast Iron heads will be replaced with alluminium. Apparently Ford will stick with an overhead valve setup instead of overhead Cam. Production is expected to take place in Mexico...

Currently, its still unknown whether or not the Scorpion will retain the Powerstoke name, or come out with a brand new label.

As soon as I found out Ford was abandoning Navistar and going to develop there own in house diesel, I decided to follow every step of the making of this engine and see what happens. My knowledge of the Powerstoke is nothing other than basic diesel operation so minus well start somewhere.

Problems I see so far:
-alluminium cylinder heads. How they will hold up to cylinder pressure, and longevity.
-Production to take place in Mexico. The 53 cast block on the 98.5-02 Cummins where cast in Mexico and many of them had cracking issues. And of course there where many that didn't(so don't even go there). Obviously this will be done at a dfifferent casting facillity, but I question the strength of the block and how well parts will be manufacted for this new engine.

You can begin ripping the engine and maker...now.

 

[RedneckBuckeye]

The duramax uses aluminum heads, They know this will have to be a quality motor or they risk big market share loss, so quality will probablly be okay.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Go figure. Had no idea about that. Considering the longevity of the DMAX I'd say that shouldn't be a problem at all then.

They also took a big risk keeping with Navistar for the production of the 6.4 after the fiasco with the 6.0. But considering its a brand new engine fresh off the drawing board then this should be interesting.

 

[Unit453]

See, thats the first thing people assume when they hear aluminum heads. All the Ford and Dodge guys said the exact same thing about the DMAX when they came out in 2001. 400k miles later, I think they all shut up about it because after 9 model years, they've proven themselves and quite well I might add. Aluminum heads evidently mean nothing when it comes to durability and longevity.

Besides though, Ford has always made solid, reliable and durable plants and I would drive one in a second. In fact, my daily driver is a 99 ford 4.6 with 127k miles on it and I'd drive it 3500 miles to California tomorrow.

 

[JiFaire]

Yep to that. The Ford Torqueshift tranny on the big diesels is a bit questionable... I prefer the Allison, myself, for handling big power.

However, the design changes are intriguing. I am a bit curious about the effects of reverse-flow on engine cooling in tough applications, though.

Time will tell, as always.

 

[Unit453]

I am a bit curious about the effects of reverse-flow on engine cooling in tough applications, though.

The 94-96 PC1 police package LT1 5.7 Caprices were reverse flow cooled. I would have to say that those were build about as heavy duty as you could get. They never had any problems. I dont see that as being a problem at all.

 

[JiFaire]

I am a bit curious about the effects of reverse-flow on engine cooling in tough applications, though.

The 94-96 PC1 police package LT1 5.7 Caprices were reverse flow cooled. I would have to say that those were build about as heavy duty as you could get. They never had any problems. I dont see that as being a problem at all.

I was speaking of the reverse-airflow design... routing the exhaust gasses internally to run a turbo in the 'V' of the engine. I have no doubt it's more efficient, but in a heavy-towing application, wouldn't that raise the block temps fairly dramatically? I can see where routing airflow externally might cool IAT, though, so maybe it offsets things.

-- Just asking... I know squat about this type of engine, and diddly-squat about reverse-routing of airflow. Just seems logical, though.

Interesting technical problem. I'll be interested to learn more about this. They sure aren't made like our 6.5 Turbos, and that's a fact!

 

[LtEng5]

when he says "reverse flow" he is talking about the air path into and out of the engine. many of the large stationary engines and also new 4.5L dmax have the charge air come in from what is now the exhaust side of the engine as we all know them. the "new" exhaust is on the old intake side in the valley of the heads which makes for a short exhaust path into the turbo, which allows for faster spool up and for a more compact engine size. this design has been around for many, many years and used in mostly industrial and heavy commercial applications. nice to see it moving into the smaller auto industry market

 

[BigBlueChevy]

I was unaware that the DMAX used alluminum heads which was why I questioned the use of them on a diesel pushing high power as well as longevity. But now that I am aware that the DMAX is in use of it there is no problems(to my knowledge) It completly had me do a 180 on that concern.

The Torqueshift has always had its issues when it comes to diesels. even stock they can just barely hang on I understand. And with quite a bit of people throwing a superchip and other performance upgrades at them, heaven knows how that will work out. I'll have to agree with Redneck that Ford has to provide things as high quality as possible to avoid trashing the Ford Diesel name even more.

LtEng5 do you know what kind of specs the Scorpion would need for cooling? I'm with Jim when he says that the reverse flow will definatly lower IAT, but it will also add high heat to the block especially in towing conditions. IMHO it'll take a powerful cooliong system to keep things in line on this. This whole reverse flow thing is new to me(and it seems a few others) so could you elaborate?

 

[RedneckBuckeye]

I was unaware that the DMAX used alluminum heads which was why I questioned the use of them on a diesel pushing high power as well as longevity. But now that I am aware that the DMAX is in use of it there is no problems(to my knowledge) It completly had me do a 180 on that concern.

The Torqueshift has always had its issues when it comes to diesels. even stock they can just barely hang on I understand. And with quite a bit of people throwing a superchip and other performance upgrades at them, heaven knows how that will work out. I'll have to agree with Redneck that Ford has to provide things as high quality as possible to avoid trashing the Ford Diesel name even more.

LtEng5 do you know what kind of specs the Scorpion would need for cooling? I'm with Jim when he says that the reverse flow will definatly lower IAT, but it will also add high heat to the block especially in towing conditions. IMHO it'll take a powerful cooliong system to keep things in line on this. This whole reverse flow thing is new to me(and it seems a few others) so could you elaborate?

The 5r100 torqushift is actually pretty stout in the stock form, in stock form I believe it will hold more than the Ally in stock form. The older ford autos 4R100, and E40D behind the 7.3 power stroke were pretty pathetic and the weak link in that truck configuration.

 

[Unit453]

I think any Ford product is a wise choice these days. They've made stout products for many, many years with proven durability and reliability. I dont ever remember a Ford product that was a huge POS, maybe other than the Pinto, but then again, there weren't too many good cars out there back then that really lasted a while. Sure they've had some problems over the years but they've always fixed their deficiencies. Some include the cruise control catching fire on some F150's for a year or two and the evidently bad design of the fuel tanks on the Crown Vics, which resulted in numerous fiery deaths to law enforcement officers.

Their 4.6 and 5.4's are friggen tanks and cannot be killed. The 4.6 may not make much power but its one of the most durable plants out on the road today. They can take an ass whippen and last 400k miles with regular maintenance. Same went for the old TBI, Vortec and LT1 350's.

Whatever they build, its gonna be a good product. And considering they dont have much competition anymore, they're thriving.

Their 4.6

 

[Anubis]

The 5r100 torqushift is actually pretty stout in the stock form, in stock form I believe it will hold more than the Ally in stock form. The older ford autos 4R100, and E40D behind the 7.3 power stroke were pretty pathetic and the weak link in that truck configuration.

the problem wasn't the transmission, it was the programming.

My mom's motorhome has a 460 and an E4OD, I put a banks transcommand on it and it no longer feels like it belongs in a lincoln. I also upgraded the cooler with a HD unit with a fan and thermostat switch from Raptor transmissions.

My Bronco has a 302/E4OD and it has 269,XXX miles on it, just had the transmission serviced/inspected right before the head gaskets went and the shop (I take it to a transmission guy, not to AAMCO or a quick lube for service) said it is showing signs of wear but its still in good shape..... I had it reprogrammed when I bought it 100,000 miles ago...... it may only be a 302 but I beat on it with 3.55 gears and 35's... also has a HD cooler with a fan.

the only dually I have ever owned was a 1990 F350 crewcab with a 460/E4OD and I never had 1 transmission problem from it.... it had a Banks Transcommand when I bought it.

I have also never had a problem with a 4L80E...


where was I going with this ..... oh yeah .... the problem is not the transmission but the program...... same downfall as the 4l80E and the 4l60e, they need to be repogrammed

 

[big block 88]

The TQshift will actually hold much much more power than an Allison in stock form. There are 6.4 powerchokes runnin 12.1 in the quarter right now with stock tranny intake exhaust and Tune.

We used to own nothin but Ford for years my dad loved them, 921500Z71 can attest to this. The 7.3 IDI and powerchoke where both amazing motors that were durable and pretty stout for there day. We tradded our 02 7.3 in on an 03 6.0 and it failed on it's first trip to Estes Pk. We went to the D-Max and never looked back.

Ford's new power numbers are very impressive, the 6.9 duramax if they ever come out will be in the same ball park but perhaps a bit more HP.

I just hope and pray that our Big 3 in Detroit can pull through all this BS that is happening now.We need Ford GM and Dodge to pull through. All 3 make an amazing diesel truck.

 

[LtEng5]

LtEng5 do you know what kind of specs the Scorpion would need for cooling? I'm with Jim when he says that the reverse flow will definatly lower IAT, but it will also add high heat to the block especially in towing conditions. IMHO it'll take a powerful cooliong system to keep things in line on this. This whole reverse flow thing is new to me(and it seems a few others) so could you elaborate?

for the auto application i do not know if they are going to use a inter-cooler or not. as for when reverse flow is used in industrial applications the ducting comes straight off the turbo over the valve covers and into the head, no inter-cooler. exhaust is run thru the valley with super short log manifolds with the turbo bolted right o the manifold similar to the Cummings 5.9L.

Cat 16 and 20 cylinder engines use the same side of the head ( valley side ) for both intake and exhaust. when they get this big there is plenty of room for this; as the heads are individual to each cylinder and start at around 14 inches square and go up from there.

radiators are larger than what would be used in auto form because these engines are stationary ( usually ) and require massive fans to make large amounts of CFM to keep cool. with an auto application the engine is moving and air is being forced across the radiator; so a smaller fan and radiator package is sufficient to cool the engine.

 

[gardnerteam]

Don't knock modern Mexico production. For the past several years, Mexican built GM products (first letter is 3 of your vin# I think) have had fewer quality and assembly problems than US built stuff. Surburban's have been majorily produced in Mexico and the two I have owned were among the best I've had. Mexico has produced a lot of US engine parts, bearings, etc for the past 20 or so years. They are produced to standards developed in the US, and unlike Chinese companies, most of the companies are US owned and they follow the specs to the letter. Mexican employees in Mexican factories actually take a lot of pride in their work and their jobs, and strive to make the best product possible.
Ford is in position to take over the US pickup market. They need a great diesel and a great transmission like the Allison. GM may be toast for a few years under OBummer. One other thing Ford might come up with to pick up a lot of the GM market that will be lost to someone is a IFS front end option. Ford people like their straight axle, but there are a equal number of people who have $ and pay big $ for trucks that prefer the IFS ride. With a IFS as a option, a great diesel, and a good 7+ speed auto, Ford will really prosper in the truck market.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

I'm with Unit453 on this one. I've been giving alot of respect to Ford lately for there abillity to survive the way they have. And with the fact that 2 out of the big 3 have gotten themselves in the hole, many are going to head to Ford for there new vehciles. Be honest with you If I had a second truck, a play truck that is, I would definatly want it to be a Ford. I lover there body style. Not to mention just how sick they look lifted on larger tires. And the old 7.3 powerstroke sounds pretty damn nice.

 

[big block 88]

After our luck with the Ford 6.0 Powerjoke I can assure myself and my family will never go back to the blue oval. We had some awsome 7.3's and even 2 great IDI's 6.9 and 7.3 but no matter how good they were we can never go back to the Oval.

 

[JD4720]

I dont want to start a fight here but I wish people would get over the 6.0liter an how bad they were the early ones had there problem but 05 an up seemed to be good running motors I know a good many guys that have them an seem to like them.

My question does anyone know if you will be able to get the 6speed stick in the new trucks?

 

[Cheyenne19]

You should be able to. GM is the only one who doesn't think that truck owners should be allowed to shift gears themselves.

 

[randomid25]

You should be able to. GM is the only one who doesn't think that truck owners should be allowed to shift gears themselves.

Well, all truck manufacturers are starting to think that way. No half ton trucks are available with a manual trans anymore. Dodge was the last hold out and they discontinued the option for the 2009 model year. Its only a matter of time before they figure you shouldn't be able to get a hd truck with a manual trans.