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FASS filtration deception.

hoot

hoot

Recruit
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Location
SE PA
I recently discovered that the water separator that FASS provides with their dual filter systems is not a water separator. It's only a 100 micron screen filter. FASS will not provide performance specs on it's ability to trap water because THERE ARE NONE.

Yet they claim the FS1023 is a water separator.

Fleetmaster (Fleetguard) is the source of this information. FASS will not address the question.

This is outright deception unless FASS can legitimately show otherwise.

I challenge FASS to come explain why it is not deception. I am one of many who have discovered the same facts... or lack of.

We all should know that water is one of the worst contaminants to effect our CR injection system. I was under the impression that paying all of that money was worth the protection.

Lets open this up to discussion and get some answers.
 
Some filters can absorb water. I am not saying the ones Fass ues can but I know some can. I personally think Racor ,makes the best flitration.
 
Right from Cummins filtration...

Forwarded conversation

Subject: Information on FS 1023
------------------------

From: Michael
Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:43 PM
To: [email protected]


Hello,

I am researching your FS 1023 FFWS fuel filter water separator filter but I cannot find any performance data on it. Can you see if any exists?

Regards,

Michael

----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:51 PM
To: Michael


The FS1023 specs are as follows,

100 micron mesh wire screen
Flow rate of 155 GPH
Thank you for using FleetMaster


----------
From: Michael
Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 3:56 PM
To: [email protected]


Thank you.

Are there any specs on water extraction percentage?

Mike

----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:50 AM
To: Michael

The FS1023 does not have a listed percentage for water removal. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
Date: 06/30/2010 02:56 PM
Subject: Re: Information on FS 1023

----------
From: Michael
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:55 PM
To: [email protected]


I am confused. Do you have another filter of similar design (stainless steel screen) that has specs for me to get an idea?

Mike

----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 3:25 PM
To: Michael


The wire mesh has no water stripping ability. The drain is on this type of filter in cases for when the filter is sitting overnight and the water in the fuel seperates to the bottom. This allows the water to be drained off of the unit.
Date: 07/01/2010 11:55 AM

----------
From: Michael
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]


So this filter is a 100 micron prefilter and is not designed to remove water?

Thank you,

Mike

----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:08 PM



That is correct. It is basically there to catch the large particles that would quickly plug a much tighter secondary filter. This can have water drained from it but is not designed to remove water.
Date: 07/01/2010 02:35 PM
 
I understand the exchange, but do not see the alleged deception.

It is listed as a water separator (which it appears to be), not a water removal device. Diesel floats on water, so water in the fuel would be at the bottom of a filter and easily drained out, much like the WIF valve on a stock Duramax fuel filter.
 
Who lists it as a water separator? The ones selling it? Who told them it's a water separator?

It is not a water separator by any means. Don't kid yourself. A fine mesh screen is all it contains. It was not designed to be a water separator by the people who designed it (Fleetguard).

A water separator typically has purpose built filtering media designed to repel water, causing it to accumulate on the "dirty" side and roll down the sides of the media, dropping to the bottom.

The FS1023 has NO water separator performance specs. A true water separator has water separation specs. This is how you spec a filter for usage. You visit the specs. What the heck was FASS thinking? The source says it it not a water separator by design. FASS spec's it in their design and then tells the customer it's a water separator.

If you don't see the deception than you are deceived. That screen prefilter is about as cheap as they come.

I have the FASS 150 also. I talked to a tech at FASS. She said she had not been their long enough to know the answer and that the people who knew had left for the day. She said they would get back to me. Guess what? Not only will they not get back to me, they won't get back to you and they won't address this.

Has anyone ever had water drain out?

Call it marketing, call it whatever but I call it deception. Leading us to believe this is some type of end all solution when in fact the OEM filter is a better one with respect to water removal.

Did you expect that from FASS?

I will cut mine apart when my Baldwin BF1212 replacement arrives. This one will fit the FASS and it will remove water.

The implications of not taking action? Documented occurrences of water related engine failures. I picked up on this on the Cummins forums and began sending emails and making phone calls. I am in engineering at an aerospace firm. There is no way we would spec a filter without even the basic performance specifications published. The cat is out of the bag. Air Dog did the same thing.

They need to stop listing the FS1023 as a water separator and list all of their basic filter performance specs. WHY NOT? Not important?

So argue with me till you turn blue.... but don't waste your time. Go do your own research and let us know what the FS1023 is capable of. When you find nothing out you have to ask yourself one question.... do you feel lucky? Well do ya?):h
 
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You guys are funny. Google is the end all? Over and above what the manufacturer says it is?

What's the biggest river in Egypt?
 
Just throwing this out there, but I think I see where Mike is coming from... To me a product called a separator should be a mechanism or device that separates water from fuel. I do not think a drain valve on a filter qualifies. Our fuel gets heated up quite a bit as we run our trucks. I could see the likelihood of water becoming suspended in the fuel and the necessity for a device that removed it. I think the valve on a filter to drain water is in place to drain water from fuel that has sat for a period of time and cooled. As the fuel cooled the water would separate (by itself) and need to be drained from the filter.

Just my $.02
 
I'm not saying it's not a water separator.... Fleetguard is saying it. They make the filter.
No one, not even Fleetguard has water removal specs on this filter.
Because is a pre-filter only.
Google is loaded up with info populated from misinformation.

Do your homework... don't listen to me. Google it. Send emails, make phone calls. We've already done all that. I'm just spreading the news. I have a FASS 150 on my truck. It pisses me off.

Sorry for being a little cocky but google doesn't cut it for everything.
Give FASS a call. See what they tell you. What is on their website comes up on google. What they say on the phone does not.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3...cussion/268398-airdog-fass-5.html#post3129560

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showpost.php?p=2796389&postcount=4
 
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What you're not posting is that there are OPTIONS for the FASS filters.

You're hammering the maker of the pump, not the maker of the filters.

It's real simple on a FASS.

You upgrade the primary filter to an HF6604 (3 micron) and the water separator to a REAL water separator, FS1000VE (10 micron Statapore w/ 96% water separation) and it EXCEEDS OEM specs, which Bosch and Cummins have set at 95% for water separation and 5 microns for final fuel filtration.

You are still REQUIRED to periodically drain the water separator......the canister only holds so much. If you don't drain it at least each tank and preferably after the vehicle has been stationary, you're going to fill the canister and water WILL pass......it's no different than on the water separators on OTR trucks.....it's called maintenance.

I'm not gonna drag this out as far it has been on CF, as it already went well past the point of stupidity.

The option is simple.....replace your filters OR you buy a pump, filter heads and fittings and you make your own system. You can make you own system, to your own specs, with off the shelf parts, it just won't be a simple, bolt-on system.
 
Cumminalong said:
What you're not posting is that there are OPTIONS for the FASS filters.

You're hammering the maker of the pump, not the maker of the filters.

It's real simple on a FASS.

You upgrade the primary filter to an HF6604 (3 micron) and the water separator to a REAL water separator, FS1000VE (10 micron Statapore w/ 96% water separation) and it EXCEEDS OEM specs, which Bosch and Cummins have set at 95% for water separation and 5 microns for final fuel filtration.

The option is simple.....replace your filters.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%

What you aren't mentioning is FASS doesn't make it all so clear especially early on, did they? I'm hammering the maker because they were either too dumb but acted like they knew it all or they did it on purpose for financial reasons.

Filtration hasn't been rocket science for quite some time. Many of us were researching and specifying filters back in the late 90's and the industry is probably 100+ years experienced.

They should have put.... AT MINIMUM.. at least the same filtration capability.... you agree????

Not everybody is a smart as you and many rely on the manufacturer's info. Fass fell way short on filtration info. They just sent you a system with subpar filtration.

Why is that there mr cummingalong?

I highly suspect you are standing up for them because you sell them? Noooo
 
Brother, I sell FASS, AirDog, Aeromotive, Holley, and damn near every other brand of pump out there. I also build the system custom if that's what a customer wants.

I don't stock the filters that come with the FASS or the AirDog, nor do I recommend them when someone calls for filters.

What I do carry is Fleetguard, Donaldson, WIX, Baldwin, Racor etc.......

And you have me confused with vendors that will sell anything under the sun. If I don't like the product, I don't sell or advertise it unless a customer SPECIFICALLY says, "I want this part." There are two companies (big names) that I refuse to do business with, so if you want to question someones integrity, you're barking up the wrong tree.

The filtration specifications for the 5 micron rating were just updated within the last few years from Cummins and Bosch. Even when I bought my truck, the specification was 10 micron final, then it went to 7 and is now specified at 5.

How many trucks have YOU worked on, that YOU'VE seen the first hand damage from water?.....I'm betting ZERO. Every single one I've had come in with water damage has had the OEM filter on it and the owner has NEVER drained the canister.....SIMPLE MAINTENANCE.

When folks come in with water damage, ask them where they got their fuel from. Was it a station that does high volume and uses good fuel or was it some podunk station that has fuel for $0.03 a gallon cheaper. Take a look at the pump your using to put fuel in your tank. Is it a high volume hose that comes from the truck stop tank? Then likely it's not well filtered before it goes to your tank.

If all you rely on is the manufacturer's info, you're definitely not fully informed. Sure, you paid for 325 HP and 610 lbs of torque, but what makes it to the wheels......about 279 and 558.

Let me ask you this.....

Have you EVER seen the Water In Fuel light come on in an 04.5+ truck? You won't. It doesn't work, not even during the bulb check. Yet try getting water damage covered by the factory warranty, even if the light doesn't work.

Even on the older trucks, when the WIF came on, it was likely that the damage was already done as the sensor is too high in the canister.

Again, SIMPLE MAINTENANCE!

I know you like to claim you're an Aerospace Engineer or whatever.......then you have the ability to put together a system. Like I told you in those other threads, don't cry about government or business. If you want change, ACT ON IT. Don't cry about the other guy.
 
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For the record.....

For the FASS 150, which is what I run on MY personal truck, this is what I use, this is what I stock, this is what I sell, this is what I recommend.

Unlike some folks that sling parts out of their bedroom and don't even own a diesel and sure as hell don't work on them, I actually run, install, service and can build and back what I sell (i.e. my money and my mouth match).

Take it as you like.....

FleetguardFiltersforFASS1.jpg


FS1000VE.jpg
 
Whenever you look at these filters, the way Fleetguard codes them is this.

HF is a Hydraulic Filter....rated for much higher pressures than the standard fuel filters.
FF is a Fuel FILTER.....if it has an FF part number, it IS NOT a water separator at all.
FS is a Fuel SEPARATOR....these have the ability to be drained and / or separate water from the fuel.
LF is a Lube Filter.....oil, trans, etc.
 
For what it's worth, I'll personally write it off as lessons learned... once again.

cumminalong, I don't think you are capable of agreeing with anything. I've seen it in your recent truck build topic and throughout this FASS debate.

It doesn't take an aerospace engineer to understand basic filtration specifications. What I ranted about was the deception. Deception by implication. Implying something is superior when in fact we were put at risk. That is fact, not smoke an mirrors. Less filtration and zero water removal capability. Thanks FASS. When FASS supposedly discovered there was a filtration issue, why didn't they and the vendors let us all know?

As one said earlier "What, I was lied to?" LOL

I went with the Baldwin BF1212 mounted on the water separator side. The FS1000 does seem to be a good option also.

I talked to Fleetguard.... the "FS" 1023 will not strip water. I have it in writing. It uses a stainless fine mesh screen so maybe FS stands for "Fuel Screen". I have it in writing from Fleetguard that it was NOT designed to be a fuel separator. It was designed to be a pre-filter only. I would not guess what the prefixes mean.

As far as the FASS 150 on my truck is concerned, so far it has worked well pumping. Whether it does anything in terms of removing entrained air is concerned, how do we measure that?

With all of the trucks you have worked on, can you claim the air removal makes a mileage and or performance difference?

And why won't FASS answer the rebuttal by AH64? Looks like another "one way" poster.

We're going around in circles now. We know the problem and we know the answers. Just the people responsible wouldn't fess up until we splashed it all over the forums.
 
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hoot said:
OK my rant is over. For what it's worth, I'll personally write it off as lessons learned... once again. cumminalong, I don't think you are capable of agreeing with anything. I've seen it in your truck build topic on the other site and throughout this FASS debate.
Click to expand...

I'm not capable of agreeing with anything?.....I don't have to agree with a DAMN THING in my truck build. Last time I checked, you aren't the one paying for it, you aren't the one turning the wrenches, you aren't the one that takes your truck out EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND and puts almost $30K worth of parts on the line. Let me know if that changes.

No, I'm just not capable of crying over a situation that is EASILY rectified. It's taking you more effort to cry about this, that it would take you to simply change a filter.

Deception, deceit, lying, misrepresentation, whatever.......hire a lawyer at $500 an hour, they'll have more sympathy.

Personally, I'll spend $23 on a good filter.

That's your choice.

hoot said:
And why won't FASS answer the rebuttal by AH64? Another "one way" poster.
Click to expand...

Because that's all he posts about. That's why I specifically shut that conversation down in my build thread on CF. Because every time a topic is started, he turns it into a bash AD and FASS thread and I wasn't gonna have a topic that was going very well turn into 20 pages of the same rhetoric from the same folks.

Ever heard the story of the little boy who cried wolf?......after a while it falls on deaf ears.

I have a list of folks that call me NON-STOP, that have never bought anything from me and that I've never worked on their trucks. I spend HOURS of my time on things that don't benefit me in any way, shape or form. You know what that does to productivity?.....IT PUTS IT AT A STAND STILL. But I field the phone calls because people trust that I know what the hell works and what will help achieve the goals they want. My time isn't free and spending hours on the phone answering calls that don't benefit your business from the same folks doesn't keep you in business, it costs you time and money.

You think it benefits me to post information like this?

http://www.doghousediesel.com/id12.html

Or this?

http://www.doghousediesel.com/id13.html

Doesn't benefit ME in the least bit, but it helps OTHER folks do some of their own work.

Here's my recommendation if you don't like the systems or companies that are represented in the aftermarket.....DRIVE A STOCK TRUCK OR START YOUR OWN BUSINESS, INVEST YOUR OWN MONEY, DO YOUR OWN R&D, PAY FOR YOUR ADVERTISING, PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES, PAY FOR YOUR INSURANCE, PAY FOR THE TOOLING AND FACILITIES AND MAKE A BETTER PRODUCT.

You can HOPE for change or you can MAKE a change. Do whatever fills the bill for you, but act on it rather than continue to cry over spilled milk.
 
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I have a lot of aftermarket stuff on my current truck and my previous ones. I install a lot of it myself. You won't find a history of me crying about every problem I've had with those things. You can be sure I've had the problems. Some major. Most of it I had taken care of off line working with the vendor and/or the manufacturer. Unfortunately FASS doesn't like the questions. I can tell you I had a bad experience with the vendor (unnamed) that sold me my FASS. Once I bought it he would not give me a receipt. He said he was no longer dealing with FASS because it cost him more time than it was worth resolving and getting parts/refunds for warranty work. FASS is very difficult with warranty. I called FASS... it took way too much of my time to get the warranty registered. They almost denied me.

It's not about crying. It's about getting answers. AH64 had answers. You shut him off. Only your answers apply? I found out in my research that we were being duped into thinking we were buying the "end all". All we are doing is asking why.
 
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