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Electric Fan clutch

Jay if I am understanding it the Horton does use PWM to control the fan clutch but it appears it has some feed back and logic to the algorithm. It appears to use at least the engine RPM and again if I understand it varies the PWM to achieve a fan speed in relation to the engine rpm according to cooling programmed points.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
Has anybody found anybody using an EV fan clutch in a non factory equipped application?
Click to expand...

Found one install on an early PowerStroke:
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/94...-horton-ec-450-electric-clutch-fan-drive.html

EV clutch part number looks like EC450 and the installation instructions for it appear to use direct wiring with simple switches (ECT, schrader (for the A/C), and manual 'On/Off').

schiker said:
Jay if I am understanding it the Horton does use PWM to control the fan clutch but it appears it has some feed back and logic to the algorithm. It appears to use at least the engine RPM and again if I understand it varies the PWM to achieve a fan speed in relation to the engine rpm according to cooling programmed points.
Click to expand...

Definitely not disputing . . . If it can use a PWM, that is great. Seeing as we are all guessing, might need to break the 'guy rule' and have somebody ask :)
 
schiker said:
UD,

Have you ever tried to adjust pressure on the hydraulic engagement/disengagement mechanism to try and control the amount of slip on the clutch?

How does that work? I will assume its not easy to feather engagement but is it doable?
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There isn't any adjustment, nor is it needed. The Hydraulic clutch assembly is not abrupt, there is slip factored into the engagement by default. It is not instant, there is a slight delay, to save the belts and pulley. As I hinted above, it really has the manners of the thermostatic versions it replaced.

I will start at new post soon with videos demonstrating.
 
The fan clutch with the thermal spring and EV electronic control work nearly the same way.
Silicone fluid is allowed into a working chamber from a reservoir. This locks the clutch in. While the fan is spinning silicone fluid is always leaking back into the reservoir through a hole to unlock the clutch. Only the fluid being allowed back in keeps the clutch locked in.

To allow fluid into the working chamber the factory used a valve controlled by a thermal spring. As the bimetal spring gets hot it rotates the valve open allowing silicone fluid to enter the working chamber faster than it leaks back out. The amount this valve is open determines how much % the clutch locks up.

The EV clutches I am familiar with use a PWM valve that is like a fuel injector. (It's actually a rotatory valve like the spring controls.) The electronic PWM pulse opens the valve for a moment. The longer the PWM pulse the longer the valve is open. So on/off should work.

The other advantages of a EV clutch as designed from the factory is they can recover from the 200 RPM per year loss by using more PWM time to overcome the ageing/wear of the clutch and get to a specific RPM. When they can't get enough RPM they set a code where the worn out spring thermal clutches get ignored.
 
Yeah, it would be easier to call but what fun would that be. I kind of like figuring and talking it out (hope I don't annoy anyone).
They probably won't tell you a cheap and easy way around controlling it if they have a kit for sale.

One I read referred to it as a solenoid controlled valve and something about how they pushed on a valve against a spring ????

Could or would others might it be a stepper motor controlling the on off valve rotational control???. In which case on/off might still need a PWM type controller? For a stepper motor ON/OFF isn't just a switch on/off to one pin I don't think. I was wondering why 6 pins to control the EV clutch wouldn't a stepper motor make sense???
 
I know working on semis the Horton air clutch was instant, full on. No matter if by driver or engine temp switch. Several of them used 6 groove belts with auto tensioned. The temp switch that fed the air valve was the only engine control on many, other than the manual override to keep it engaged the whole time.

I really don't see why that can't work here. 30% for 10 minutes or just on for 3 minutes. Same basic thing
 
Here's a couple of pics
 

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JayTheCPA said:
Found one install on an early PowerStroke:
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/94...-horton-ec-450-electric-clutch-fan-drive.html

EV clutch part number looks like EC450 and the installation instructions for it appear to use direct wiring with simple switches (ECT, schrader (for the A/C), and manual 'On/Off').



Definitely not disputing . . . If it can use a PWM, that is great. Seeing as we are all guessing, might need to break the 'guy rule' and have somebody ask :)
Click to expand...
The HORTON is not an EV, but an on off electric fan clutch. The EV is like the 1st one posted where it can vary engagement just like a thermal clutch can. PWM solenoids in some cases require certain frequencies to engage, or else nearly instant solenoid failure will occur.
 
Similar but not quite the same. My power is out when it comes back on I'll post the pin out stuff manually (no pic)
 
Dang these guys beat all around the bush but did not quite reveal specifics on the frequency needed for pwm. Some better minds might be able to read the oscillo scope pics.

I think you could skip all the feed back circuits and have a PWM controller and adjust the lock up % to come on at a set point easy enough. You would have to manually adjust slippage but could turn on/off with a dumb set point switch. They don't look that expensive under $20 Could set up 2 in parallel and run one with AC on and one with AC off and adjust each as needed.

Looks like you can ground a wire to turn on max engagement too with say a high set point to kind of idiot proof it. It appears with 12V on one wire and ground another overrides all pwm control and sets max engagement.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1374791-cooling-fan-pwm-question-3.html
 
Personnaly there is one MAJOR drawback to this, and it is the FORD fan blade being only 19.3 inches in diameter. So it is smaller than even the stock 6.5L fan blade in diamter, but due to it's design probably outflows the 6.5 fan blades. My question would be though, can it outflow a DURAMAX fan blade as many 6.5ers know even the DURAMAX fan blade doesn't move enough to keep some trucks cool.
 
schiker said:
I think you could skip all the feed back circuits and have a PWM controller and adjust the lock up % to come on at a set point easy enough.
Click to expand...

Well it would not accurately control a known specific lock up % or achieve speed control. But it would mimic control and adjust the pull of the fan to some ratio of the speed of the water pump. It would vary with environment and temperatures but I bet pretty predictable and workable.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
Personnaly there is one MAJOR drawback to this, and it is the FORD fan blade being only 19.3 inches in diameter. So it is smaller than even the stock 6.5L fan blade in diamter, but due to it's design probably outflows the 6.5 fan blades. My question would be though, can it outflow a DURAMAX fan blade as many 6.5ers know even the DURAMAX fan blade doesn't move enough to keep some trucks cool.
Click to expand...

Expanding on 'design':
Fan diameter is just one measurement. The blade "pitch" is also important. A 21" Trailblazer SS fan does not move enough air to keep my 1993 cool, but, the 21" 2002 Duramax fan does. Blade pitch is a measure and results in how much of a bite the fan takes out of the air. So a smaller diameter fan could outflow a bigger diameter fan if the blade pitch is different. (Pitch and blade width are both factors. This can affect fan thickness.) Blade count is another matter that affects airflow with the same pitch and also affects how much suction the fan produces. Also blade count affects how restrictive it is to bypass air when the clutch is disengaged.

Look up airplane propellers for some detailed info like pitch, windmilling, blade count, etc. Fun fact: airplanes will travel further with a stopped propeller than they do with a dead engine being windmilled (turned over) by the propeller. The spinning propeller with a dead engine is more of a drag. So for the maximum amount of "Ram air" to make it through the radiator the best case would be the fan completely stopped. (Note the fan spinning at full RPM at 65MPH moves more air than Ram Air alone can.)
 
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Here's a better pic of the pin out. Also I can get fans up to 24" possibly bigger for this clutch.
 

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On/off control is a good feature for those who need to ford water once and awhile.

While this has never happened to me nor to anyone I know there are claims that cooling system fans blades when spinning will pull forward the outer edges of the fan into the radiator causing cooling system failure.
 
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