Does anyone have any data on the heath HT-4 cam's

[nmb2]

and before anyone that knows, busts my balls...

all that being said, no... I don't give out the specs on my cam, nor does delta.... likely for the same reason Heath wont on his... because he knows it can easily be replicated. Its protecting your R&D.

So in that aspect, I can understand his lack of info.... but the price is redonkulous.

 

[buddy]

There are a lot of places that outright tell you the duration and valve timing of cams, because that is info that anyone trying to design an engine or upgrade path would need to know. I dislike the idea of not knowing how it works, even if it does help. Then you rely on the person that designed it to tell you how to modify anything else.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Like every other manufacturer who will try to talk you out of a purchase you don't need? "Grip to be had on isle 5." I don't blame you for having doubts but it's getting old. He's got good rep, you've got, what, an add for ceramic coatings and you're asking people to email you for what, selling something on the forum without paying the site sponsorship? just my opinion. No need to tell me, I'm gone.

I know he has a good rep, never said otherwise..... and no add for coatings.... I do have data for the coatings I do here, 600$ , to me is a lot to not have anything to offer as for real gains is all I was trying to say.... and good by to ya...

 

[OrionThade]

I have nothing to add to this other than to say NMB2 has at least twice, in his 20 posts, mentioned that he designed a camshaft for someone or other. Nice appeal to authority logical fallacy there.

Seriously, it gets really annoying to come to this community and see people who have no idea what they're talking about start trashing someone that has a pretty damned good reputation for being a quality shop and someone that will stand by his products AND customers 100%, even if it means taking a slight loss on his part.

For all of the guys I see here trashing Heath's cam, I haven't seen a single person release their own cam profile. Action talks, as the saying goes.

 

[Paveltolz]

I have a little experience with camshafts. I designed the 'turbo cam' for the Ford IDI. I called my grinder, which happens to be Delta, to get stock specs on your GM cams, and clearances. I can tell you this, there is nothing heath can do, with those cams, to out perform a delta re-grind.

I would like to be there at Heath's when and if you drop in. Alas, I'm just a 'dirty ol' contractor with a blue ID' and can't take leave or a four-day pass to make the trip. If you're a successful cam guy, you two should have quite a good conversation. Hopefully, he'll give you the long story about his attempts to find a grinder that understood his design specifications. So far, he's only found one and they are enjoying a great run together. There were plenty of other companies that couldn't do it for lack of understanding, comprehension, skills or machinery capability. Guess that's why there hasn't been a successful modified cam design for the 6.2 or 6.5 sold by Crane, Delta, or anyone else these past 30 years.

A couple even tried to market their failed attempts at it and the customers trucks ran like crap. I repeat, "Guess that's why there hasn't been a successful modified cam design for the 6.2 or 6.5 sold by Crane, Delta, or anyone else these past 30 years."

I do have to wonder at one of your statements that seems to be contradicted later on though, (warning, side track), WRT "I think Bill, and anyone else coming up with power claims without a dyno is as good as lying." and then you said, "also, I don't want to sound like I have it out for Heath Diesel, because I don't.....Its(sic) hard to believe someone, that refuses to put their truck on a dyno." Just what is it you're trying to say, is Bill a liar or not? Nothin' but love man, but you've got me confused there.:skep:

As to the 500hp claim, if that's the Diesel Power article, where in it besides the title does it mention 500 hp? It didn't. THAT was Diesel Power's title. As to numbers at the flywheel, how many other 6.5s make 500 hp at the flywheel? So, is 500hp an improvement or not? At least he stated where he got it, where ever it is he stated it. Just saying. Still, an honest broker in my book.

My cam is on order, 1/4 mile and dyno sheets for the disciples to follow. That's a "WILL" by the way.:hello:

 

[nmb2]

I have nothing to add to this other than to say NMB2 has at least twice, in his 20 posts, mentioned that he designed a camshaft for someone or other. Nice appeal to authority logical fallacy there.

Seriously, it gets really annoying to come to this community and see people who have no idea what they're talking about start trashing someone that has a pretty damned good reputation for being a quality shop and someone that will stand by his products AND customers 100%, even if it means taking a slight loss on his part.

For all of the guys I see here trashing Heath's cam, I haven't seen a single person release their own cam profile. Action talks, as the saying goes.

I am easily as knowledgeable as Bill Heath.... him and I have personally spoken on the phone on different occasions.....and I have a more powerful IDI than him, with proven dyno numbers. So I get a little annoyed at FALSE CLAIMS.

 

[nmb2]

I would like to be there at Heath's when and if you drop in. Alas, I'm just a 'dirty ol' contractor with a blue ID' and can't take leave or a four-day pass to make the trip. If you're a successful cam guy, you two should have quite a good conversation. Hopefully, he'll give you the long story about his attempts to find a grinder that understood his design specifications. So far, he's only found one and they are enjoying a great run together. There were plenty of other companies that couldn't do it for lack of understanding, comprehension, skills or machinery capability. Guess that's why there hasn't been a successful modified cam design for the 6.2 or 6.5 sold by Crane, Delta, or anyone else these past 30 years.

A couple even tried to market their failed attempts at it and the customers trucks ran like crap. I repeat, "Guess that's why there hasn't been a successful modified cam design for the 6.2 or 6.5 sold by Crane, Delta, or anyone else these past 30 years."

Or because the 6.2/6.5 is a dead, underpowered platform. Why is comp, crane, or delta going to spend money on R&D to sell a few cams for this engine? Heath diesel is all about the 6.2/6.5..... Same thing with the 6.9/7.3 IDI..... there was a few RV cams but nothing performance. I spent the time, and research to come up with a grind, and had a grinder do it. That is all Heath diesel has done.

I do have to wonder at one of your statements that seems to be contradicted later on though, (warning, side track), WRT "I think Bill, and anyone else coming up with power claims without a dyno is as good as lying." and then you said, "also, I don't want to sound like I have it out for Heath Diesel, because I don't.....Its(sic) hard to believe someone, that refuses to put their truck on a dyno." Just what is it you're trying to say, is Bill a liar or not? Nothin' but love man, but you've got me confused there.:skep:

As to the 500hp claim, if that's the Diesel Power article, where in it besides the title does it mention 500 hp? It didn't. THAT was Diesel Power's title. As to numbers at the flywheel, how many other 6.5s make 500 hp at the flywheel? So, is 500hp an improvement or not? At least he stated where he got it, where ever it is he stated it. Just saying. Still, an honest broker in my book.


I said as good as lying, not flat out lying. This is why.... Bill isn't running around saying "I have a dyno proven 500hp 6.5". That would be a lie.

Heath diesel himself calls it a 500hp 6.5.. See here:
http://heathdiesel.com/racetruck2008/

I actually had email correspondence with Bill when I was in the building phases of my engine, trying to soak up some tips and tricks. He told me the engine makes 500hp @ 4800 and 755tq @ 3500. I asked for a dyno sheet where he went on to tell me he doesn't believe in dyno's, he uses engine analysis/dyno software, along with ET's and other math to calculate his power. Of course he wouldn't actually give me any of his ET's.

So, instead, Bill makes false claims, with not hard data to back it up, not lies. Better?



My cam is on order, 1/4 mile and dyno sheets for the disciples to follow. That's a "WILL" by the way.:hello:

Racin' and myself have every intention on going to Ellensburg to check this stuff out... and I personally have a real, dyno proven 400hp/800tq IDI, so I'm probably the perfect 'test subject' to judge this thing.

I personally am looking forward to it. As I said, I don't have it out for Bill, I don't even have the same platform as him. I just don't understand how he can confidently claim power numbers with no hard evidence, and he has so many die hards that take what the man has to say as the gospel.

I agree, any and all advancements for these old platforms is cool.... otherwise I wouldn't have one... but lets be realistic, and deal in fact, and proof. Not someones word.

 

[Paveltolz]

Not much better but points taken.
Thanks for the link. I wasn't sure where you'd read it which is why I asked if it was the article I linked. Been down the road a time or two before over that article. I've had the same discussion with him and was told it was at the flywheel so no issues.

You defend his not giving up data saying you won't either for the cams and yet you hammer away again at his not giving you ET's? He tells you he doesn't believe in dyno's and where he gets his 'data' and it still isn't good enough. While I can't blame you for doubting based on your standards of truth, it's still not enough to say his claims are false. As to false claims, truthfully, you can't prove him wrong either so you don't really know for certain. Instead, you are asking the community here to believe you over a man who has a proven track record in competence and trust. The OP and others may support you in that but, you're in a small circle. Getting others to join in, well, that's a tough road amigo, a tough road indeed.

Safe journey. I'd call first as I understand he's swapping out his OEM cam in the Red truck and it isn't done yet and I think the Green truck is getting new HO injectors Monday / Tuesday. Hate to see you waste a trip.

 

[nmb2]

Not much better but points taken.
Thanks for the link. I wasn't sure where you'd read it which is why I asked if it was the article I linked. Been down the road a time or two before over that article. I've had the same discussion with him and was told it was at the flywheel so no issues.

You defend his not giving up data saying you won't either for the cams and yet you hammer away again at his not giving you ET's? He tells you he doesn't believe in dyno's and where he gets his 'data' and it still isn't good enough. While I can't blame you for doubting based on your standards of truth, it's still not enough to say his claims are false. As to false claims, truthfully, you can't prove him wrong either so you don't really know for certain. Instead, you are asking the community here to believe you over a man who has a proven track record in competence and trust. The OP and others may support you in that but, you're in a small circle. Getting others to join in, well, that's a tough road amigo, a tough road indeed.

Safe journey. I'd call first as I understand he's swapping out his OEM cam in the Red truck and it isn't done yet and I think the Green truck is getting new HO injectors Monday / Tuesday. Hate to see you waste a trip.

there is a difference between not openly posting cam specs, and not giving proof of your claims. every person that has purchased one of the turbo cams I came up with, got a cam card, its called facts. I'm not going to openly post the specs for someone to just call another grinder to try and have done.

As for a dyno being my standard, its not MY standard, its THE standard.....Engine dyno, chassis dyno, have something to back up your claims other than broken math and pipe dreams......Heaths claims are laughed at in many circles, he has a small support base from what I've seen. What am I asking people here to believe from me? That you can't come up with your power numbers based off of none factual information? Saying I can't prove him wrong, therefore nobody knows is the biggest load of crap.... he is the one making a claim, it is up to him to supply evidence.... which he has never done.... this is not disputable.

As for the drive over, I won't be making it that quickly.... my DB4 is out of my truck right now as of 2 days ago to get some more work done.... I would be foolish to show up "cocky" with a measly 80cc's of fuel pumping into my engine......

Just out of curiosity..... I do show up, I take a ride, and I come back and tell you that his butt dyno is severely out of calibration.... you going to believe me?

 

[Crankme69]

They will drink the Heath cool aid here no matter what!

Might just as well let it go...

Nuff said

 

[OrionThade]

2 Things:

#1 - You keep saying you have a dyno-proven 400 HP/800 TQ IDI ... yet you have not provided a dyno sheet. Pot? Meet kettle.

#2 - You keep saying you have a dyno-proven 400 HP/800 TQ IDI ... yet you haven't said what kind of IDI. Apples. Oranges.

So far all I've seen from you is talk. Once again, you use "Appeal to Authority" to make your argument, rather than post factual evidence.

BTW - I, for one, wouldn't believe anything you said about Heath's cam grind if you were to take a ride in one of his trucks because you've already established a bias AGAINST anything Heath, therefore your opinion is inherently worthless.

 

[OrionThade]

They will drink the Heath cool aid here no matter what!

Might just as well let it go...

Nuff said

I stopped drinking koolaid a long time ago.

All I can speak to is the experience I've had with Heath. Same goes for any other vendor, including the vendor who's website I designed, built and host.

 

[Paveltolz]

Just out of curiosity..... I do show up, I take a ride, and I come back and tell you that his butt dyno is severely out of calibration.... you going to believe me?

Yes, I'll believe your opinion. Even though you'd be talking out of your 4th point of contact (sorry, couldn't resist).

For what its worth, when I post my butt dyno impressions of the new build, as compared to my 'old' motor's performance, even though I'm talking out of my ass, will you believe me?

Here's a thought, just for the heck of it, drive my truck first, it's parked there and should be still assembled for much of June as I'm still waiting on Mahle to produce the pistons. That will give you fairly good baseline for comparing 6.5 OEM to 6.5 with cam. It has does have a tune but it is more of an economy one and the rest of the bolt on stuff still leaves it pretty much stock. Then take the ride in Bill's. Might as well compare Apples to 'New and Improved" apples, your Ford being so much better than our trucks and all.:rolleyes5:

Crank69, that's silly, and beneath the person I ate and drank with last summer.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

there is a difference between not openly posting cam specs, and not giving proof of your claims. every person that has purchased one of the turbo cams I came up with, got a cam card, its called facts. I'm not going to openly post the specs for someone to just call another grinder to try and have done.

As for a dyno being my standard, its not MY standard, its THE standard.....Engine dyno, chassis dyno, have something to back up your claims other than broken math and pipe dreams......Heaths claims are laughed at in many circles, he has a small support base from what I've seen. What am I asking people here to believe from me? That you can't come up with your power numbers based off of none factual information? Saying I can't prove him wrong, therefore nobody knows is the biggest load of crap.... he is the one making a claim, it is up to him to supply evidence.... which he has never done.... this is not disputable.

As for the drive over, I won't be making it that quickly.... my DB4 is out of my truck right now as of 2 days ago to get some more work done.... I would be foolish to show up "cocky" with a measly 80cc's of fuel pumping into my engine......

Just out of curiosity..... I do show up, I take a ride, and I come back and tell you that his butt dyno is severely out of calibration.... you going to believe me?

This statement is 100% FALSE. A dyno is a tuning tool, not the standard for which you judge an engine by. It makes a good standard to judge against, but is not the final say in what an engine does. There are plenty of trucks out there that dyno 700+, yet can't even crack into the 12's in the 1/4 mile, yet there are trucks out there that only dyno 500 and have broke into the 11's. Then figure in correction factors and one truck can dyno at 600 on one dyno, but barely break 350 on another. The dyno operator also plays a HUGE role in what your dyno chart will show with a chassis dyno. This is why dyno's are tools, not benchamrks. If you spend much time on the performance boards, you will hear a statement over and over. And that statement will be that dyno's are simply tools and NOT a standard to judge by.

And "butt dyno's" are very inaccurate to say the least. I'm sure I'm around the 400HP mark at the wheels right now, yet it doesn't feel as strong as some stock trans safe tunes I have written for people(but it is MUCH faster, just that much smoother now).

And I am asking everyone in here to keep this as a civilized discussion.

 

[Paveltolz]

Firm, If I'm being a prick, I apologize, to you, the OP, nmb2 and anyone else out there who chooses to be offended. Trust me, that is not my intent. I've said it before that writing is the worst form of communication, (even with the smiley's) so while I tried to express my disagreements without coming across as an Emo, it doesn't always translate to the screen.

sctrailrider, as much as the discussion is about this and that, it has derailed as even if the comparisons that have been talked of in the last few posts are made, it will be apples to oranges as you've requested HT-4 and these will be HP-3 cams. And then it will be with DB-4s... Hopefully though, there will be a basis for comparison from OEM (ish) to a new cam to be of some assistance.

If you like, I'll go the way of DTMAbfall on this thread and bail.

Cheers.

Paul

 

[nmb2]

This statement is 100% FALSE. A dyno is a tuning tool, not the standard for which you judge an engine by. It makes a good standard to judge against, but is not the final say in what an engine does. There are plenty of trucks out there that dyno 700+, yet can't even crack into the 12's in the 1/4 mile, yet there are trucks out there that only dyno 500 and have broke into the 11's. Then figure in correction factors and one truck can dyno at 600 on one dyno, but barely break 350 on another. The dyno operator also plays a HUGE role in what your dyno chart will show with a chassis dyno. This is why dyno's are tools, not benchamrks. If you spend much time on the performance boards, you will hear a statement over and over. And that statement will be that dyno's are simply tools and NOT a standard to judge by.

Absolutely correct about a dyno being a tuning tool. That's why its important to get a baseline pull before doing mods if you are going to make power gain claims. That is all.
And "butt dyno's" are very inaccurate to say the least. I'm sure I'm around the 400HP mark at the wheels right now, yet it doesn't feel as strong as some stock trans safe tunes I have written for people(but it is MUCH faster, just that much smoother now).

And I am asking everyone in here to keep this as a civilized discussion.

Your entire post is accurate, I don't dispute it at all.... but you aren't going to dyno on the same dyno twice and make 200hp less. This generally happens when going from a mustang to a land & sea, or a dyno jet to a mustang... ect. It has to do with tuning parameters of the dyno, one is an inertia dyno, the others are eddy current/water brake, as well as what gear you ran it in, did you use lock up... ect. I'm very familiar with dyno operations.

As for ET's, dyno sheets have very little to do with drag racing.... once again.... truck weight, what trans, tuning, tires, altitude, density altitude... ect.... all play huge factors.

The point here is that Heath diesel, makes power claims like they're fact, with no factual information, not even a base line.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Your entire post is accurate, I don't dispute it at all.... but you aren't going to dyno on the same dyno twice and make 200hp less. This generally happens when going from a mustang to a land & sea, or a dyno jet to a mustang... ect. It has to do with tuning parameters of the dyno, one is an inertia dyno, the others are eddy current/water brake, as well as what gear you ran it in, did you use lock up... ect. I'm very familiar with dyno operations.

As for ET's, dyno sheets have very little to do with drag racing.... once again.... truck weight, what trans, tuning, tires, altitude, density altitude... ect.... all play huge factors.

The point here is that Heath diesel, makes power claims like they're fact, with no factual information, not even a base line.

Dyno's work as a baseline tool, and your statement of them being THE standard is as false as it gets. That was my point. To many people get hung up on dyno numbers as being the holy grail. It's nice to say I have this, but it is just A standard(not the standard) of measurement to judge by.

And I'm not asking anybody to bail out, just simply that we keep this as a civilized discussion that will allow this thread to grow. We welcome discussion and even disagreements as it can bring about new findings, but just be civilized about it.

 

[nmb2]

2 Things:

#1 - You keep saying you have a dyno-proven 400 HP/800 TQ IDI ... yet you have not provided a dyno sheet. Pot? Meet kettle.

#2 - You keep saying you have a dyno-proven 400 HP/800 TQ IDI ... yet you haven't said what kind of IDI. Apples. Oranges.

So far all I've seen from you is talk. Once again, you use "Appeal to Authority" to make your argument, rather than post factual evidence.

Oh you missed my introduction thread? I only have 20 some posts, how hard is it to search?

Just for you, I have a 6.9 IDI. My baseline pull was 292rwhp/614rwtq on fuel only. I have a methanol injection kit as well, but did not run with it, as I was only interested in fuel numbers. Both peaked below 2400rpm. This is in a ZF5, CC DRW F350. Coast down showed 29% parasitic loss. This is 377hp/792tq. Not 100% accurate, but its better than guessing..... That is my first and only dyno with this engine so far. I am running a BW 61/65/.80, which turned out to be too small. I have a new charger on the way. I am running a custom DB4 injection pump. 150cc output.... pump is still in R&D phases but I've put 6,000 miles on it so far in the last few months.... biggest issue is the pump starts to defuel @ 2600rpm, this is due to the stock spill ports not being able to keep up. I pulled the pump 2 days ago, disassembled today.... next week will be having more ports added to the rotor, and then some modifications to the dynamic timing advance mechanism... Once its back together will more/bigger ports, and a bigger cam pin, we are turning max fuel up to 200cc range......


In an attempt to help with the purpose of this thread, when I go and see heath diesel in person, I'll talk to him about his cam. Worst case scenario, is if someone were to buy it, you can just have a cam card run on it and you will know the EXACT specs of the cam.

 

[nmb2]

Dyno's work as a baseline tool, and your statement of them being THE standard is as false as it gets. That was my point. To many people get hung up on dyno numbers as being the holy grail. It's nice to say I have this, but it is just A standard(not the standard) of measurement to judge by.

And I'm not asking anybody to bail out, just simply that we keep this as a civilized discussion that will allow this thread to grow. We welcome discussion and even disagreements as it can bring about new findings, but just be civilized about it.

Go post up on CompD and tell them you have a 500hp IDI... but you don't have an engine dyno, a chassis dyno, or any power measuring device to back up this claim..... however, you did some math on it.... and this is what you're making.

Let me know how that goes.

That's my point. A dyno, whether it be engine, or chassis... is the standard measuring equipment. Not math.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Go post up on CompD and tell them you have a 500hp IDI... but you don't have an engine dyno, a chassis dyno, or any power measuring device to back up this claim..... however, you did some math on it.... and this is what you're making.

Let me know how that goes.

That's my point. A dyno, whether it be engine, or chassis... is the standard measuring equipment. Not math.

On the flip side there are people that come in with dyno sheets saying 500HP out of a built DURAMAX and they call BS on it over there. And I have seen others come in claiming 700HP out of a 5.9L with an exhaust, intake, and a Smarty stack and they believe it. And yes it is the standard in measuring equipment, but still not THE standard by many(and that's the last I have to say on it).