Brake upgrade for my 98 K3500

[handcannon]

1) No, he used the knuckles from the 2000 to 2008 2500 HD in place of the knuckles on the 98.

2) The way the spindle is set up on our trucks is somewhat like a front wheel drive vehicle. The spindle is a flat plate with a hole in the center. The ball joints go in protrusions on each end of the plate. The axle shaft goes through the hole in the center of the spindle. When you say steering knuckle I think of the knuckle on each end of a solid steering axle, which is very different from the spindle on an independent suspension front drive axle.

3) This part took me a while to visualize what he was describing. I finally figured it out. He made an adapter, like a piece of threaded rod. Only, it had threads to match the 98 trucks tie rod on one end and threads to match the newer DMax tie rod on the other end. This then threaded into the newer DMax tie rod on one end, and into the 98 tie rod on the other end, coupling the new and old tie rods together. Doing it this way leaves the stock 98 truck adjuster sleeve in working condition and allowing for tie rod length adjustment.

I have the spindle and tie rod ends out of an 02 DMax to use. I still need to have the tie rod adapter made, and modify the spindle so the older truck ball joints will fit. I had hoped to have this all done by now, but I've been too busy this past summer. So now I'll need to do this over the winter.

It may take me a while to do this, but I'll try to take a lot of pics when I finally get around to doing the brake mod.

Don

 

[Big T]

1) No, he used the knuckles from the 2000 to 2008 2500 HD in place of the knuckles on the 98.

Thanks for that clarification, so now I know what to look for.

2) The way the spindle is set up on our trucks is somewhat like a front wheel drive vehicle. The spindle is a flat plate with a hole in the center. The ball joints go in protrusions on each end of the plate. The axle shaft goes through the hole in the center of the spindle. When you say steering knuckle I think of the knuckle on each end of a solid steering axle, which is very different from the spindle on an independent suspension front drive axle.

Now we're on the same page with this.

3) This part took me a while to visualize what he was describing. I finally figured it out. He made an adapter, like a piece of threaded rod. Only, it had threads to match the 98 trucks tie rod on one end and threads to match the newer DMax tie rod on the other end. This then threaded into the newer DMax tie rod on one end, and into the 98 tie rod on the other end, coupling the new and old tie rods together. Doing it this way leaves the stock 98 truck adjuster sleeve in working condition and allowing for tie rod length adjustment.

Yes, I'm going to need help visualizing this. Sounds like you're describing a rod with different threading on each end that goes between Dmax and 98 tie rods. So as far as bone yard searches, it sounds like I need the Dmax tie rod. Photos would be very helpful.

I have the spindle and tie rod ends out of an 02 DMax to use. I still need to have the tie rod adapter made, and modify the spindle so the older truck ball joints will fit. I had hoped to have this all done by now, but I've been too busy this past summer. So now I'll need to do this over the winter.

It may take me a while to do this, but I'll try to take a lot of pics when I finally get around to doing the brake mod.

Don

Just to confirm from the picture, no mods needed on the axle? The brake rotor goes over the existing bearing hub? The mods are to use the later model HD Spindle (aka steering knuckle) and ream the the receptacles on it for the '99 ball joints, plus the tie rod mod described above.

Can you place arrows on this photo showing which is the Dmax HD portion and which is the '98:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/Kasperan/NovaWork141.jpg

Thanks, this has been helpful.

 

[handcannon]

"Just to confirm from the picture, no mods needed on the axle? The brake rotor goes over the existing bearing hub? The mods are to use the later model HD Spindle (aka steering knuckle) and ream the the receptacles on it for the '99 ball joints, plus the tie rod mod described above." (Big T)

I just need to make sure you understand that I haven't done this mod yet and everything I'm saying is according to my understanding of the OPs explanation.

According to what I understand you are partially correct. The DMax spindle with its bearing hub, rotor, and caliper are used and adapted to our era trucks ball joint. So, everything from the spindle outwards is DMax. The axle is from the early vehicle and fits into the DMax hub. I do have the spindles, hubs, rotors, calipers, and tie rod ends from an 02 DMax.

"Yes, I'm going to need help visualizing this. Sounds like you're describing a rod with different threading on each end that goes between Dmax and 98 tie rods. So as far as bone yard searches, it sounds like I need the Dmax tie rod." (Big T)

The picture you posted is a great one for helping to answer your question. Yes, I'm describing a rod with different threading on each end to go between the DMax tie rod end and 98 tie rod. You will need only the DMax tie rod ends as seen in this pic. The fully complete DMax tie rod is not made up of several pieces as our era of truck tie rod is. The whole center section is one solid piece. I think it is possible to disconnect the DMax tie rod end, with its' respective threaded section, from the tie rod. I just didn't take the time to figure out how when I pulled the parts at the wrecking yard. I just unthreaded it from the rest of the tie rod.

While I was pulling the DMax parts I also got a pair of our 90s era tie rod ends. The condition of the swivel ball on the end is not important as it will be cut off and discarded. What is left between the threaded portion and the swivel ball will need to be turned down and threaded to match the DMax tie rod end. The actual length needed is not known at this point. That will have to be determined at a later time.

Items with the number 1 are from the 90s era trucks. I haven't thoroughly checked this, but I think that all the 2500 and 3500 (non HD) parts will interchange.

Item with the number 2 is the threaded rod transition that adapts the earlier tie rod to the DMax tie rod end. This needs to have threads matching those used on the early tie rod on one end and threads matching the DMax tie rod end for the other end.

Items with the number 3 are from the Dmax truck.

 

[Big T]

OK, many questions answered, but still have some more.

Based on your numbering of the picture, am I correct to assume that no reaming of the spindle (err Knuckle) is required for the Dmax ball joint on the end of the tie rod? The reaming on the spindle is for the upper an lower ball joints on the A-arms?

Are the Dmax bearing hubs the same as for the GMT-400 (err '98)?

 

[handcannon]

OK, many questions answered, but still have some more.

Based on your numbering of the picture, am I correct to assume that no reaming of the spindle (err Knuckle) is required for the Dmax ball joint on the end of the tie rod? The reaming on the spindle is for the upper an lower ball joints on the A-arms?

Are the Dmax bearing hubs the same as for the GMT-400 (err '98)?

Yes, you are correct that there is no reaming of the spindle for the tie rod end. As to the tie rod end tapers, the DMax taper is larger than the early (98) taper so the DMax tie rod end is the only one that can be used in the DMax spindle. This is why the early tie rod is adapted to the DMax tie rod end. And, the only reaming required is to ream the DMax spindle for the early upper and lower ball joints.

I don't think the hubs are interchangeable from the DMax to the early hubs. I don't know about the bolt pattern that holds the hub to the spindle, but there are two differences that I know of. My 94 hubs are not set up for ABS, and the DMax is, and the brake rotors are mounted differently.

The early hubs, like on my 94, I'm certain that they have the rotor mounted to the inside of the hub. Meaning, to change rotors you have to remove the hub from the spindle to remove the rotor. But, the DMax rotor is mounted onto the outside of the hub making replacement of the rotor very easy. Just remove the wheel to replace the rotor. This, along with the larger caliper piston cup and brake pad swept area, is why I want to do this mod.

I just checked Rockauto and 2000 is the last year for our body style hub. For my pickup, (a 94) 1994 is the last year of interchange.

Don

 

[Big T]

The early hubs, like on my 94, I'm certain that they have the rotor mounted to the inside of the hub. Meaning, to change rotors you have to remove the hub from the spindle to remove the rotor. But, the DMax rotor is mounted onto the outside of the hub making replacement of the rotor very easy. Just remove the wheel to replace the rotor. This, along with the larger caliper piston cup and brake pad swept area, is why I want to do this mod.

And that is another reason justifying doing this mod. The rotor-to-hub mount on the GMT-400 style trucks is F'd up.

Please move forward on this mod and report back with pics. Meanwhile, I'll be hunting bone yards for spindles and tie rods.

 

[handcannon]

And that is another reason justifying doing this mod. The rotor-to-hub mount on the GMT-400 style trucks is F'd up.

Please move forward on this mod and report back with pics. Meanwhile, I'll be hunting bone yards for spindles and tie rods.

Hopefully I'll have time soon to start on this. Due to new neighbors I've been spending most of my time the past three months helping clear blackberries and building fence, their property and here on moms property. I am on a very limited income so it might take some time.

I know a guy, disabled vet, who is a trained aircraft mechanic. He has a small lathe and I need to see if he is able to make the threaded adapters out of the old tie rod ends. I should have time soon to make up a jig for holding the DMax spindles in my drill press so I can make the ball joints fit.

My next problem is dry, under cover, work area. Dads small shop building has become a storage area, lots of his stuff that he hung onto, and lots of my stuff that needed dry storage when we moved here to be with mom. Time to close my eyes and start throwing junk away.

I will keep you up on how things go. Please keep me updated on what you find.

Don

 

[jrsavoie]

I wish this thread was here when I was trying to figure this out a couple of years ago.

 

[M.Kasperan]

Having done this upgrade I'm very happy with it. The best part about it is the panic stopping. When you need to stop you stop! Over all it's been great the next set of pads I might try a ceramic pad to see if I can make the brakes even better.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Having done this upgrade I'm very happy with it. The best part about it is the panic stopping. When you need to stop you stop! Over all it's been great the next set of pads I might try a ceramic pad to see if I can make the brakes even better.

Semi metalics tend to be more aggressive than most ceramics, and don't suffer from brake fade like ceramics do. I tried AKEBONO ceramics on my BURB, and they were HORRIBLE. Swapped em out for RAYBESTOS advanced technology semi metalics and I have BRAKES! I guess I'm one of teh lucky ones as I have never felt my my BURBS brakes were really lacking after just a few upgrades.

 

[Burning oil]

I did the 2wd version of this mod on the Burb. Big brakes rule!

 

[john65td]

stay away from ceramics there no good for towing they don't have the bite

 

[HMF]

I put ceramics on my truck and am very pleased with how they feel and the stopping power. However, they have really gouged my rotors. I'm amazed that the brakes still seem to perform well as bad as the rotors are torn up.

 

[handcannon]

Having done this upgrade I'm very happy with it. The best part about it is the panic stopping. When you need to stop you stop! Over all it's been great the next set of pads I might try a ceramic pad to see if I can make the brakes even better.

Good to hear this!!

I do have a question though. Did you end up sticking with the stock brake master? Or did you go to the DMax master? The researching I've done about this tells me that to do it the hydroboost and master needs to be changed as a unit. The DMax master will not fit on the 90s era hydroboost, and the DMax hydroboost has a different firewall bolt plate, and the rod that connects to the brake pedal has a different length and pin diameter. I think these differences can be overcome, but it would not be an easy swap.

Don

 

[Big T]

I've done almost all the recommended brake mods: Stainless lines and hoses, Raybestos pads and Durastop shoes. Have never been able to get the ABS to work. The stopping power from high speed is horrible. Wheels will not lock and you're left wondering when it will ever stop. I will add the new proportioning valve and the larger brake cylinders to the rear, but I've got to find parts to do this big brake upgrade. We're kidding ourselves with these stock brakes. It's like wishing for hope and change, but it will never come.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I've done almost all the recommended brake mods: Stainless lines and hoses, Raybestos pads and Durastop shoes. Have never been able to get the ABS to work. The stopping power from high speed is horrible. Wheels will not lock and you're left wondering when it will ever stop. I will add the new proportioning valve and the larger brake cylinders to the rear, but I've got to find parts to do this big brake upgrade. We're kidding ourselves with these stock brakes. It's like wishing for hope and change, but it will never come.

I don't understand how some of these BURBS have such bad brakes, whereas mine can lock em up at will with 8 people in it if I want on a dry road. Mine hold well enough that I can lock it in 4X4, and do a boosted launch without it pushing through the brakes. I have the RAYBESTOS front rotors and advanced technology semi metalic pads, RUSSEL stainless braided brake lines, origanal master cylinder and hydroboost, 1 1/16" wheel cylinders, DURASTOP rear shoes, and the updated proportioning valve in mine. The only reason I had to add the proportioning valve was it would wander under braking after I did the DURAMAX swap and added extra weight up front. My wife hates my brakes as many times it will just about choke her i na panick stop when I get on em from how hard it will throw you forward. I've even twed upwards of 6K pounds before with no trailer brakes and could still stop it safely. It just puzzles me how one will stop so well, and another won't. I have a feeling yours is an ABS control valve issue from our PM's about yours.

 

[Big T]

I don't understand how some of these BURBS have such bad brakes, whereas mine can lock em up at will with 8 people in it if I want on a dry road. Mine hold well enough that I can lock it in 4X4, and do a boosted launch without it pushing through the brakes. I have the RAYBESTOS front rotors and advanced technology semi metalic pads, RUSSEL stainless braided brake lines, origanal master cylinder and hydroboost, 1 1/16" wheel cylinders, DURASTOP rear shoes, and the updated proportioning valve in mine. The only reason I had to add the proportioning valve was it would wander under braking after I did the DURAMAX swap and added extra weight up front. My wife hates my brakes as many times it will just about choke her i na panick stop when I get on em from how hard it will throw you forward. I've even twed upwards of 6K pounds before with no trailer brakes and could still stop it safely. It just puzzles me how one will stop so well, and another won't. I have a feeling yours is an ABS control valve issue from our PM's about yours.

Mine will no longer even lock the tires in a panic stop from highway speed. I will do the proportioning valve and larger rear wheel cylinders. Wondering if I need to replace the Master Cylinder and hydro boost. Also wondering if I'm bleeding them incorrectly.

I loved it when the ABS did work, but I am at a complete loss on how to fix that. I've had codes pulled and it says short in RF wheel. I've replaced 3 senders and just replaced that RF bearing hub with new sender last week and it immediately came on. On one stop I played with the engine side of the wire harness at the frame and on restart the ABS light was off, but it came back on at some point later on. Yesterday on the 500 mile drive back from Kanab, Utah after retrieving son and daughter in law from their roll over accident in the '95 Burb, I had one fuel and food stop in Las Vegas where the ABS light stayed off. I pulled off road to let the dogs have a break and run around and it was not obvious whether the ABS was working. The ABS light came back on when I restarted.

Many here have reported just unplugging the ABS altogether as they simply dislike it. I would like it to work, but I'm not going to throw $1000 at it. I'd rather have BIG NORMAL BRAKES.

 

[M.Kasperan]

Good to hear this!!

I do have a question though. Did you end up sticking with the stock brake master? Or did you go to the DMax master? The researching I've done about this tells me that to do it the hydroboost and master needs to be changed as a unit. The DMax master will not fit on the 90s era hydroboost, and the DMax hydroboost has a different firewall bolt plate, and the rod that connects to the brake pedal has a different length and pin diameter. I think these differences can be overcome, but it would not be an easy swap.

Don

As of now I still have the Stock master. I have been thinking about doing hydroboost from the the later trucks but it work great now. I might change my mind after the Cummins is in place. I really want to try the ceramic pads next.

 

[handcannon]

Thanks for that info. It's been a while since I did my researching, but as I remember it from the reading I did I came to the conclusion that changing to the larger master would probably change the feel of the pedal to a stiffer/harder pedal.

There will be a bit of work involved changing from stock master to the DMax master. The hydroboost needs changed. As I remember it the bolt pattern is the same, but the center bore for the DMax master is larger and won't fit the stock hydroboost. To change to the DMax hydro requires either re-drilling the firewall for the DMax hydro bolt pattern, or swapping out the DMax mounting plate for the stock plate on the DMax hydro (in my opinion the easiest). Then, the DMax hydro has a different push rod than the stock hydro, so that has to be addressed. I haven't come up with a for sure fix for that, but I'm considering trying to change out the DMax pushrod for the stock pushrod.

What you'd end up with is a hybrid hydro. DMax hydro body, with stock 90s era mounting plate and stock 90s era pushrod. All this to be able to mount a DMax master in a 90s era truck. And, my researching brought me to thinking that keeping the all stock master and hydro for the 90s era truck would produce the best feeling brakes. Your experiences back that up.

Don

 

[M.Kasperan]

Thanks for that info. It's been a while since I did my researching, but as I remember it from the reading I did I came to the conclusion that changing to the larger master would probably change the feel of the pedal to a stiffer/harder pedal.

There will be a bit of work involved changing from stock master to the DMax master. The hydroboost needs changed. As I remember it the bolt pattern is the same, but the center bore for the DMax master is larger and won't fit the stock hydroboost. To change to the DMax hydro requires either re-drilling the firewall for the DMax hydro bolt pattern, or swapping out the DMax mounting plate for the stock plate on the DMax hydro (in my opinion the easiest). Then, the DMax hydro has a different push rod than the stock hydro, so that has to be addressed. I haven't come up with a for sure fix for that, but I'm considering trying to change out the DMax pushrod for the stock pushrod.

What you'd end up with is a hybrid hydro. DMax hydro body, with stock 90s era mounting plate and stock 90s era pushrod. All this to be able to mount a DMax master in a 90s era truck. And, my researching brought me to thinking that keeping the all stock master and hydro for the 90s era truck would produce the best feeling brakes. Your experiences back that up.

Don

The pedal feel is ok, not great. The best thing is to keep the rear brakes adjusted and to stop hard once in awhile. Not sure why but after stopping hard the pedal and the brakes seems better. I've owned a 04 CC dullie Duramax and the pedal in that never really impressed me either. My father has a 2500hd GMC and after driving my truck he thinks my brakes are better then his in his truck. I do know one thing the truck stops better now then it ever did before.