Any plumbers? Water heater input.

[Will L.]

Ok. So code wise I am ok by the code from what it used to be back when built.
Safety wise it might matter to the next owner. This garage is a 1 car attached garage that we use as a storage room. My real garage is like 1000 sq ft detached.
So no safety hazard there for my family.

Idk if there is room to raise it 18” because of the stairs above it. But since it is walled off- if I made it a fully sealed door like garage to living space is- then punched in venting to bring air in for burning the natural gas from the outside all somehow. If we ever do put a car in there and for future owners.

I wonder if it even counts as part of the garage because it is closed off with the wall and door.

 

[Will L.]

I was curious what the reason was for not wanting a tankless natural gas unit. 50 gallons is a lot of water to keep hot and ready. but then again in this day in age the prices of natural gas is up there. I don't blame you for not wanting something that would use a LOT of gas if you have several folks using water for showers and what not.

I spent most of the time it was down trying to figure out doing a tankless.

Problems:
The insanely hard water here (worst in country) means the maintenance flushes have to occur out here every 3 months as opposed to 12 months most everywhere else.

The tank units can be 40,000 or 50,000 btu burner. I use the 50,000 for faster recovery.
The tankless is 200,000 btu. I have 3/4” line there and they say that is minimum and might not be enough- it is better to have 1” line from the meter. That is major construction because meter is opposite side of the hose from the water heater. Then with all the other gas stuff we run here, I would need to pay for a larger meter install from the gas company even if the 3/4” line is enough. So that adds cost and time.

Then with the increase in btu, more air supply and different exhaust is required. Punching the exhaust directly out the wall is not an option, so going out the roof vent past the stairs, through the wall and out the roof is major construction. And according to a few of the manufacturers I read, there is an exhaust fan required to do that method. So now the construction costs and materials costs are even higher.

The tankless water heater itself is a lot more expensive.
The yearly maintenance if a person can do that- is way more involved than simple flush of a tank.

With our hard water, even servicing every 3 months- about 85% lifespan tankless vs tank. Nicest water out there and they say tankless outlast tank by 10-15% on average.

Tankless advantages:

Then the water heater itself is a lot more expensive. IF A PERSON doesn’t have these particular construction restraints- absolutely it is worth it.

Something we looked into is rebate and tax stuff. The water heater we bought was $689. The comparable tankless units was $2,019 and there were a few exactly at that price. However for the ones we were looking at that are top efficiency, there is a $225 rebate from our local gas company, and there was a 30% tax rebate. Not deduction but rebate, so 2019- 30%= 1,413.30 then the 225 off is $1188.30. Sales tax is more of course, so call it $600 more for just the tankless purchase.

For many people, an expansion tank is also required on tank water heaters now since municipalities are adding back flow preventers. So the cost of that should be factored in along with earthquake straps it not already there. So those add on about $50 each.

If a person does all the maintenance and cleaning themselves- then those added economic costs aren’t a concern. But if someone can’t diy- you can eat up more money.

So how much money does the tankless save in order to start working down that cost of investment. From everything I read, it would eliminate approximately 30-35% of the gas usage. My monthly average is $45. So I would save $15 a month, maybe $20. I’ve no idea on natural gas prices elsewhere. But to me, saving $240 per year my break even is 2.5 years not counting interest. So yes, absolutely worth it is boat loads of construction isn’t required.

I seriously thought about rerouting plumbing and giving up part of the back of the garage to allow exterior ventilation. One of those- if I had planned all this out and done the prep work ahead of time- would have done that. So my suggestion is you guys seriously should plan out swapping to tankless- get prep work done as a side project along the way if needed so when your current tank water heater pops- you can switch.

Btw if you have electric- you have to run new, much larger wire for it and the panel feeding it has to be able to withstand the added load.

 

[Will L.]

My reason for not going tankless was the excessive maintenance and others have told me they didn't like their tankless as much as they thought they would.

One neighbor really likes his small electric tankless units at the ends of his long runs.

I ended up repairing instead of replacing my water heater.

I'm hoping it will outlast me.

But then again, I'm hoping not.

On the point of maintaining- yes that is a big one. For diy people that can dedicate the day for it when required, no biggie. Depending on water conditions, once per year to on every 3 months.

Then there is the unhappy people that go tankless. I know a lot of those folks - i spoke to them as they went through it, and called up a few after they made changes to improve it. Doing individual units in a sink is easy win. But doing the whole house- people buy too small of a unit most of the time. When reading a lot of the info, they say my 50,000 btu unit could be replaced with a 120,000 btu unit. But that gives warm to barely hot water with all the things that get demanded. Jumping up the additional 600-700 dollar cost for the 200k btu unit makes the difference.

It’s akin to wanting better mpg, so buy a v6 1/2 ton truck. And when you are putting around empty- all is good. But hook up to the camp trailer and now you have a problem. Your gonna smash the throttle non stop.

 

[Sberry]

Got 3 units. one 43 years and never replace the anode, I never mess with them and know people who do and have more problems. I have put 5 or 6 lowers and a tstat in it.

 

[Will L.]

My first 2 houses were all electric. all my houses are within 30 minute drive.
Not serving the electric units I never had one make it 8 years. We bought 1 that was ranked best by consumer reports- my sister in Idaho had to buy one 6 months before I did- she’s the one that told me which one to get. Her’s lated 17-18 years then they moved out. I asked if her husband if he ever did flushes or replaced the anode. He said at 15 years or so he decided to, so he removed the anode- it was still near perfect. He removed the whole drain valve to put in a boroscope and saw almost nothing in the tank
He was wondering how come he wasn’t getting out any debris.

This tank I just removed- had pebbles coming out with the first 10 gallons of water very rusty looking. It’s all about the water coming in. The pressure of the water and how hot you cook it impacts that also. I haven’t replaced anything on this unit. But they are same components operating it. So I think I will remove the replaceable parts and keep in case they are needed. I never replace the anode rod in the gas unit- thought they would be just for electric units. So I will pull that also and see if it is eaten up or what. Maybe it is just a plug and not an anode, idk.

Draining this and seeing the debris has me to thinking about some kind of serviceable screen filter for the house. Idk if it would even help. Other than the cost and a couple hours to install- guess I could learn. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082174CB9?tag=startpage03e-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1



I recently installed a pedestal sink in a guest 1/4 bath (toilet & sink only), and my wife found a used one from a homeowner in a fairly new tract. So we bought it for $40 with faucet. It sat at my house about a year before I got to that project. All was fine for a few months then I started noticing about 2 months ago that whenever I turned on the hot water it would push out rusty water for a quick moment, then clear up. I thought: oh, that faucet must be rusting because I didn’t see rust coming anywhere else in the house. Then that hot water valve wouldn’t fully close- was dripping. So I figured, yup bad faucet. & shut off the supply valve to that side planning to change it out as a ‘soon’ project. Then about 2 weeks later started getting rusty moment of water in the downstairs bath/shower.

Looking back I realize that was the water tank coming apart and that little bathroom is probably first in line of the plumbing route. Hoping I pull that faucet apart and a little debris has just damaged the rubber washer seal.

But I noticed and my wife confirmed- that shower that started getting a little rust, the volume of hot water doesn’t match the volume of the cold water. I am wondering if there is a chunk of rust that made its way the the shower hot water valve (or somewhere along the way) and is restricting the flow.

Also the shut off valve to the water heater is a gate valve from idk what decade. When I shut it off to remove the bad water heater, it never shut off all the way. Being soldered in place into a Tee & trying to get hot water back on that night- I just ran and grabbed new ball valve and compression fitting. Cut the line after the gate valve adding new valve.
So now I also have to wonder if the gate valve is opening back up all the way or if it is restricting flow. Ugg.

The gas shut off valve is tucked awkwardly beside the tank in a 4” wide gap. It is from 1973 when that part of the house was added. When shutting it off, it was difficult and I realized if it were emergency scenario that would be a problem. I am altering the gas line upstairs for a stackable washer dryer in the master closet as part of a remodel going on as my back can handle. So I am going to buy a 12” black pipe and new gas valve for the water heater to extend it to easy to reach position and swap that out when I do the gas plumbing move upstairs.

Not having the time to do everything perfect the first time really sucks. I am forever telling people “If you don’t have time to do it right the first time, how do you expect to have time to do it again later?!” Yet here I am. SMH.-
Of course this would have to happen the week ai had to do an extra 16 hours at work. Haha. At least the OT pay will offset some nickels.

 

[dbrannon79]

With having to drain and flush often, I would say to plumb in some ball valves on the inlet and drain, even a larger and better drain so that it can be serviced much easier. nowadays all the new water heaters come with these plastic junk drain valves that break after about a year or two of use.

if possible, run the drain plumbing, even a vent relief too, out to the exterior of the house so it all can be serviced there instead of the need for a garden hose.

 

[Will L.]

Yeah, right now after spending the $$ I am thinking- DO MAINTENANCE!
Reality will probably set in when I am choosing between service water heater vs make progress in the big boy garage.

Some guys retire and sit around saying the’ve nothing to do. I can’t understand how that could ever happen. Even if I ever finished all my projects, there is always the older neighbor who cant tend their own yard, family members that need help with stuff, etc.

 

[jrsavoie]

I have a double bank of 3 ea. 4-1/2 x 20" filters run in parallel.

I'm looking for a regenerating filter or to get a recommendation for media for the old Well Tamer that's exceeded it's life.

Last time I ordered one of these 3 bank filters. I ordered this because the threads matched the individual filters I ordered before.

I like the clear filter bowls, but they have issues with them not holding up as well as the blue.
I've gone through several filter bowls over the years.

I might order yet another filter bank when I finally figure out what to buy for a regenerating media filter, to have a double bank before and after the regenerating media filter.

There's better filters/ housings to be had.

I have a recommendation in an email someplace that I need to check out.

I actually thought about building my own housing with a piece of lexan tube, to hat would have a drain.
The big filters are getting hard for me to handle.

Amazon.com

 

[dbrannon79]

I have a double bank of 3 ea. 4-1/2 x 20" filters run in parallel.

I'm looking for a regenerating filter or to get a recommendation for media for the old Well Tamer that's exceeded it's life.

Last time I ordered one of these 3 bank filters. I ordered this because the threads matched the individual filters I ordered before.

I like the clear filter bowls, but they have issues with them not holding up as well as the blue.
I've gone through several filter bowls over the years.

I might order yet another filter bank when I finally figure out what to buy for a regenerating media filter, to have a double bank before and after the regenerating media filter.

There's better filters/ housings to be had.

I have a recommendation in an email someplace that I need to check out.

I actually thought about building my own housing with a piece of lexan tube, to hat would have a drain.
The big filters are getting hard for me to handle.

Amazon.com

Top that filter system off with an under sink alkaline filter for drinking and to the fridge/ice maker! one of those that puts the minerals back into the water.

 

[snarl95]

@Will L. check out https://www.navieninc.com/ for tankless. I really like mine.

 

[Will L.]

@snarl95
I did, couldn’t do it. The expense was too much and too much labor In maintenance for this part of the country. We have the hardest water in the country.

 

[denata]

I disassembled a 7 year old water heater. There is scale buildup on the heater, the magnesium anode is in good condition. tank is in excellent condition. The heater was placed in an EDTA solution overnight. In the morning, most of the scale was dissolved. Made a fresh solution. and placed it again, we'll see the result in the evening.

 

[jrsavoie]

50 gallon natural gas water heater is dead. Thought about welding it up- but know it will just fail again soon from the rusting. Dang Kenmoore didn’t make it 10 years.
Can not add 240v electric for hybrid, but do have 120v available. Can not go tankless.

So looking around and reading all I can-
Arguments across the board of box store units vs plumbing supply units. Not sure if its worth the extra few hundred bucks and waiting another week to get one from them.

Rheem (home depot) and AO smith (lowes) and Reliance (True Value) are my box store choices.

Pro plumbing supply options:
Rheem from Standard Supply. AO Smith from Ideal Supply & Kelly’s Pipe. Then Fergusons carries a lot of brands and I have a slim chance I can buy from them.

What say the experts?

Did you check warranty?
My daughter's was a Sears.
When I called they said it was out of warranty. When I called back about 6 months later, they said it had just run out of warranty a month prior but they said they could not verify that I had called in 6 months before.

Do you have any deals going with your gas company on gas appliances?

I've seen several water heaters on Marketplace. Even some new scratch and dent at discount prices.

 

[jrsavoie]

I didn't notice this was a reinvigorated thread

 

[denata]

TrilonB (EDTA) dissolved all insoluble scale. The heater looks like new.

 

[WarWagon]

Even some new scratch and dent at discount prices.

Drop a hot water heater and it cracks/breaks the glass lining on the inside of the tank. I don't know if they are all glass lined inside the tank anymore. So scratch and dent is garbage with the extreme risk of future early failure and flooding from rust in the now unprotected area. A flood from a burst hot water heater will do more than $600 in damage and the homeowner's insurance deductible you got is what again? Yeah, not worth the risk and NO WARRANTY including for water damage from early failure.

Replaced the anode rods in mom and dad's and my hot water heater with the electronic units. It took a new hot water heater for the folks because the anode was eaten away to just a "nail". The tank was badly rusted on the top seam from a look inside. The heater wasn't that old and under warranty.

I disassembled a 7 year old water heater. There is scale buildup on the heater, the magnesium anode is in good condition. tank is in excellent condition. The heater was placed in an EDTA solution overnight. In the morning, most of the scale was dissolved. Made a fresh solution. and placed it again, we'll see the result in the evening.
View attachment 85122View attachment 85123View attachment 85124View attachment 85125View attachment 85126View attachment 85127View attachment 85128View attachment 85129

Looks like you also have an anode rod on that heating element and it's in bad shape needing replacement. Some heaters have more than one anode rod. To get a longer warranty aka 12 years vs. 6 years they simply add a second anode rod.

 

[Will L.]

Yuppers- the anode is supposed to disappear over time. That saves the tank from being eaten away.
Just like having the anode in your radiator saves your radiator from being eaten away.

That TrilonB (EDTA) works nice! Now to find out if amazon sells it…. Haha.

 

[jrsavoie]

Drop a hot water heater and it cracks/breaks the glass lining on the inside of the tank. I don't know if they are all glass lined inside the tank anymore. So scratch and dent is garbage with the extreme risk of future early failure and flooding from rust in the now unprotected area. A flood from a burst hot water heater will do more than $600 in damage and the homeowner's insurance deductible you got is what again? Yeah, not worth the risk and NO WARRANTY including for water damage from early failure.

Replaced the anode rods in mom and dad's and my hot water heater with the electronic units. It took a new hot water heater for the folks because the anode was eaten away to just a "nail". The tank was badly rusted on the top seam from a look inside. The heater wasn't that old and under warranty.



Looks like you also have an anode rod on that heating element and it's in bad shape needing replacement. Some heaters have more than one anode rod. To get a longer warranty aka 12 years vs. 6 years they simply add a second anode rod.

Many of the scratch and dents come with full factory warranty.

Some are just showroom/ display models .

From what I've seen there aren't many glass lined water heaters anymore.

I think it might be like batteries. Just buy the heaviest

 

[Turandot]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on water heaters. It's interesting to hear about the options available, especially with scratch and dent models still carrying full warranties. If anyone's in need of a water heater or looking for more insights, they might want to check out https://thermaright.co.uk/boiler-hire-in-bristol/ —they could have some great options and advice!