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6.5 AMG Blocks that are on the market

Great info on the blocks! Thanks for posting.

In regards to the metallurgy, first hand experiences says that the Chinese put in what they can get away with.
 
I know this is a lil off base here.. But when I was down at Ted's, they had PILES of AMG / GEP blocks that were "rejects" from when they were tested on their test stand. I haven't talked to those wonderful folks in a while, but I'm betting they might sell some of those blocks for cores or builders.

Heck they had more 6.2's and 6.5's then the average bear has seen in a life time.

Mike
 
Let me say this.

AMG/GEP is IMHO in tough straights just like any other company out there thats trying to make a buck these days.

You can go directly to GEP (call their RENO NV office) and place an order for a spanky new set of their heads or order a P400 or optimizer 6500.

Peninsular sells the forged cranks to the private sector for about $900.

So there is going to be a fair number of these blocks in private hands in due time.
$1000 will get you a fresh set of heads to your door from GEP.

$670 will get you a set that come here on a boat ???

Their was a buttload of blocks that got loose from Navistar anyway and many a shop scooped them up real fast.

I know where there are 3 more and if I can swing it, I will have them. These are part of that same batch that had small mainlines and unfinished bores.

I dont know anything much about a lot of the online sellers. Peninsular diesel has a great reputation for selling the real deal and not playing any games.

Jim

I am with you 100%, if these guys are pedaling BS, it needs to be exposed as such.

If a company wants to sell their product as an aftermarket (new) item, go for it, just dont represent it as something it is not.

With the failure of the cometic gasket in my last engine i thought long and hard about what to do. The options were all there for me to pick and choose.

I had given thought to building a 6.2 and installing aftermarket heads, and even started moving in that direction.

Mention was made when I bought a 6.2 block from a shop in PDX that they had some NEW 6.5 Blocks, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm ????????

I passed it up at first, then decided to ask questions. Those questions revealed that I was looking at the real deal (AMG/GEP Blocks)

The fellow would not comment other than he had connections and had bought several a few years before.

My curriosity just had to be satisfied and I went full tilt to find answers.

The answers came slowly and with a lot more questions coming to mind as time went by.

A call to GEP in Reno revealed that YESSSSSSSS the block I had was the real deal, I wont reiterate the entire story again.

The bottom line is simple, there is no reputation to protect here. Ford, GM, Mopar and others sell brand new blocks over the counter, always have, and no reputations have ever been tarnished because some little backyard shop is building a couple engines.

Even large shops dont hurt the factories reputation.

With the easy availability of aftermarket everything, nothing is sacred anymore.

I was over to a friends shop the other day and there sitting on a stand is a Chinese made 6.5 block.

I have seen several in the past few years so it was no shocker.

Let me tell you this, the fit and finish on that aftermarket block is head and shoulders above even the AMG Block.

The bolt holes are all chamfered neatly, the head deck surface finish is lovely, there is no ugly flashing on the casting anywhere.

This is one nice piece for sure.

I came close to buying on of these blocks for my build, why didn't I do so you ask ????

Simple, I got the AMG block for $500 . It cost me $350 for all the needed machine work to finish it up (boring/piston fiting and having the mainline done)

The chinese block cost $1300-$1500 depending on the supplier. This was simple economics

I had planned on a set of Clearwater heads at $670 for the set
Time and patience landed me a set of new heads from a P400 for $600

Local shop ordered a P400 for a Hummer and the engine came with the wrong heads. The factory replaced the heads and these became available to me.

My choices were made for simple $$$$$ reasons.

I would have loved to have bought a forged crank to go with this package, BUTTTTTTTTTT
$900 was not in the budgit, not even.

I landed a scat 9000 series steel crank for $300 to my door. Sure its not a forging, but its far and away better than the factory cast iron one, especially one with many K miles on it.

All about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. as in lack of.

For about $1800 I have all top shelf stuff this time.

Should I have done the job differently the forst time through??? maybe, but sadly by the time I discovered that the block I had purchased then had been decked twice I had sent a lot of $$$$ so the decision was made to try and salvage it with the MLS gasket.

We all know hoe that ended.

Looking back, if one could forsee the outcome, the cost would have been about the same to have purchased a 6500 in the crate.


Caviat emptor


Missy
 
Just a note on the metalurgy item.

I have no idea about who is actually behind these aftermarket blocks, but its a good bet that its soemone based in this country that has contracted with a china foundry to do the work.

Whoever is doing this is no fool me thinks and knows what works and what does not.

My conversations with GEP revealed that they had even looked at the chian blocks, but that there were issues that could not be resolved and so they
stayed on US soil to get the casting done.

With someone other than the chinese calling the shots, its hard to say whats going into the casting MIX.

There are lot of good engineers out there that understand well what makes a great Block casting.

If you dont have to fight with the EPA and other government regulators you can afford to spend an extra $$$ or so to put good stuff in your Iron.

Just a note. There are corporate bean counters who's job it is to save every penny at the time of manufacture, no matter how much it cost the company in warranty work later on down the line and or their reputaion.

The GM debacles of the past are an example The chevy VEGA, The Olds diesel, The 6.2/6.5 diesel

So many companies have done this crap, and are still doing it. They never learn.

Save 50 cents per item and spend $10 an item later to fix it. :???:

Fire the bean counters and save a large salary and let the engineers decide how to build the stuff that will work well :)

Really hard to say whats being used to cast the blocks, but my bet is that its pretty good stuff.

Next time you see a Dodge cummins go by, ask yourself, wonder what the chinese put in that cummins block, Oh yeah buddy, they are being cast over there, along with Cat and a few others.

Missy
 
Aha,i just stumbled on to the figures,where in plain sight afterall:rolleyes5:

This is the composition of the block in my sig,for what ever it is worth to ye.
I have no clue what it really means cause i ain't a metalurgist and have nothing to compare the figures to anyway.


Test conducted by Thompson Foundry LTD in Surry BC.

The fellow conducting the test thought it was very decent block material although as he said it,it depends on what the customer wants as what composition be used,and they had no problem duplicating it.
He thought it was leaning to a form of compacted graphite iron

C = 4.15
Si = 1.90
Ni = 0.03
Cr = 0.27
Mo= 0.05
Sn= 0.05
Cu= 0.42
P = 0.02
S = 0.10
Mn= 0.83
Al = 0.00
Mg = 0.00

A couple measurements between this china 506 block and my 506 stock block

Weight/ China 506 block , 244 lb
Stock 506 block , 227 lb

oil spray bores China 6 mm
stock 8mm

cyl deck thickness china 15-16 mm
stock 14-15 mm

headbolt tread dept China 25-26 mm
stock 18-20 mm
 
Last edited:
bison said:
Aha,i just stumbled on to the figures,where in plain sight afterall:rolleyes5:

This is the composition of the block in my sig,for what ever it is worth to ye.
I have no clue what it really means cause i ain't a metalurgist and have nothing to compare the figures to anyway.


Test conducted by Thompson Foundrt LTD in Surry BC.

The fellow conducting the test thought it was very decent block material although as he said it,it depends on what the customer wants as what composition be used,and they had no problem duplicating it.
He thought it was leaning to a form of compacted graphite iron

C = 4.15
Si = 1.90
Ni = 0.03
Cr = 0.27
Mo= 0.05
Sn= 0.05
Cu= 0.42
P = 0.02
S = 0.10
Mn= 0.83
Al = 0.00
Mg = 0.00

A couple measurements between this china 506 block and my 506 stock block

Weight/ China 506 block , 244 lb
Stock 506 block , 227 lb

oil spray bores China 6 mm
stock 8mm

cyl deck thickness china 15-16 mm
stock 14-15 mm
headbolt tread dept China 25-26 mm
stock 18-20 mm
Click to expand...

C = Carbon
Si = Silicon
Ni = Nickel
Cr = Chromium
Mo= Molybdenum
Sn= Tin
Cu= Copper
P = Phosphorus
S = Sulfur
Mn= Manganese
Al = Aluminum
Mg = Magnesium

Got all this from the below website:

http://www.chemicool.com/

I also have no idea what it all means! :nonod:
 
The early GM squirt blocks had the 8mm nozzles and the later blocks used the 6mm nozzles.

I had to purchase a set of nozzles for my new block and got them for a 99 GM 6.5
They were SPENDY $$$ too at around $6 each OUCH
The earlier large squirters were in the blocks that cracked through the nozzle holes.

My original engine that was in the DaHooooley when I bought it (Good wrench engine) had the large nozzles.

Interesting to know the thickness changes in the chinese blocks.

Are the main webs thicker in the china castings as compared to the old GM Block ??

The AMG block is a bunch thicker down under. The crank has little room in there along side the counter weights.

Missy
 
Missy Good Wench said:
The early GM squirt blocks had the 8mm nozzles and the later blocks used the 6mm nozzles.

I had to purchase a set of nozzles for my new block and got them for a 99 GM 6.5
They were SPENDY $$$ too at around $6 each OUCH
The earlier large squirters were in the blocks that cracked through the nozzle holes.

My original engine that was in the DaHooooley when I bought it (Good wrench engine) had the large nozzles.

Interesting to know the thickness changes in the chinese blocks.

Are the main webs thicker in the china castings as compared to the old GM Block ??

The AMG block is a bunch thicker down under. The crank has little room in there along side the counter weights.

Missy
Click to expand...
There ain't hardly any room to increase the web width in the stock blocks beyond a few thou in my 98 stockblock with the crank in place ,the china block measures roughly the same on all webs,but is a little more beefy where the piston undercuts are.
There is a bit more meat in the panrail area.
 
thats some pretty good info, thanks all for sharing.... it is pretty cool how info flows and people can make better decisions based on said info.... so on behalf of all i would just like to say thanks, and keep up the good work...
 
Cr = Chromium
Mo= Molybdenum

These two used in the right combination make it into hi carbon steel which can take heat and be tempered. Without these two it is called pig iron and is very brittle. U make pig iron first at a foundry and then u use pig iron and add the chromium and molybdenum to make it hi carbon, it changes the way the carbon atoms form the matrix. Geez I cant help it I had to take chemistry in college and then I had to take a metalurgy course to understand how farm equipment is built, its very important to have the right steel in plowpoints, them things catch he!! Chinese plowpoints and lawnmower blades are brittle and dont last long cause they actually have little pieces chip off instead of wearing off slowly like american ones.
 
0600 pt run for about 5 miles then do the Marine thing!! then back to making LOX Liquid oxygen, then back home.
 
All the LOX goes into one of our tanks then I test it make sure its good then it goes into the jets so the pilots can think that they are TOP GUN and do some crazy moves and breathe it, then I have to make more. From cradle to grave the life of LOX. I'm out got to get up soon.
 
The Blocks that got loose from Navistar were indeed "Rejects" I hate using that term as it conjures up the idea that the stuff is JUNK

Lets just say that these were just slightly out of spec. Just needing a slight hone on the mainline is a pretty easy fix.

In reference to the casting makeup and chemistry, GM could have done it right the first time.

I am still at a loss as to why they did not cast these blocks with a little better material.

MY gut feeling was that the corporate bean counters cut and slashed at the budgit to the point that it was not feasable to do it right.

I can't imagine that using a slightly better composition in the castings would cost much more BUTTTTTTT I dont know.

Possibly the testing and such was just not in the budgit, so they went with it as it was.

The main web cracking issue had been with these engines since 1982 as the first 6.2 rolled off the line.

The OLD red 6.2 engines have often been bragged up as being the best of the lot.

I have seen several old red engines with a fist full of cracks in the bottom end.

The way that many of the crack spread open over time certainly makes we wonder if the entire issue was that the castings were not properly cured/ stress relieved before they were machined.

A "GREEN" or uncured casting will do all sort of things once its put into service.

If you find a high mile engine that is crack free, they will usually stay that way.

Ahhh well such is life.

Missy
 
whether or not an OE spends that "extra bit" is all about bottom line and getting out of warranty obligations.

Look at it this way;

most 6.2/5's made it to the end of the warranty before the cracking in the blocks became an issue. Some broke early, but statistcally not many.

It's probably safe to say that over a million 6.2/5's were produced.

Lets assume an extra 20-40lbs of metal in the block would have cost a buck a piece.

that's over an extra million bucks the OE would have to spend on a casting that already gets it out of warranty, where they no longer have to worry about cost to them.

What's the incentive to add that extra cost to your manufacturing bill?

Plus, with the engine having a "short" life cycle before replacement there's a reasonable asumption of additional revenue in replacement parts.

Engineers could design an engine that goes 500,000 without real issue. They do it now in medium duty vehicles. OTR vehicles can reach 1,000,000 with a "frame in resto" halfway through that.

BUt there's no incentive to do it in a private vehicle market. Engineers know it, don't think it's just the "bean counters". Engineer's like thier jobs and know if it's over designed (ie: extra $$$), they won't have thier jobs long. Over designed cars last longer, fewer sales, more layoff, less jobs for the engineers. They design something to do the job and that's it, no further. they know exactly what they are doing....the engineer that saves the most money keeps thier job and moves up the ladder. Remember, these guys aren't stupid. They're highly educated people and know these things more than anyone else.....

Don't fool yourself into the OE's "brand loyalty for quality products" arguement either. That's all add hype that they want you to (literally) buy into. The sales department loves it when some one says something like "MOPAR or No Car". That just means they've done thier job and hooked someone on the hype that thier car is best. None of them are "best".

OE's are focused on the bottom line and that's it.....and they'll sell you "crap" as long as you keep buying it.

Don't get me wrong, I like my GMT400.

But I'm not fooling myself about the SOB's that build them and sell them....not to mention the compromises and shortfalls of the vehicle...
 
Last edited:
Missy Good Wench said:
The Blocks that got loose from Navistar were indeed "Rejects" I hate using that term as it conjures up the idea that the stuff is JUNK

Lets just say that these were just slightly out of spec. Just needing a slight hone on the mainline is a pretty easy fix.

In reference to the casting makeup and chemistry, GM could have done it right the first time.

I am still at a loss as to why they did not cast these blocks with a little better material.

MY gut feeling was that the corporate bean counters cut and slashed at the budgit to the point that it was not feasable to do it right.

I can't imagine that using a slightly better composition in the castings would cost much more BUTTTTTTT I dont know.

Possibly the testing and such was just not in the budgit, so they went with it as it was.

The main web cracking issue had been with these engines since 1982 as the first 6.2 rolled off the line.

The OLD red 6.2 engines have often been bragged up as being the best of the lot.

I have seen several old red engines with a fist full of cracks in the bottom end.

The way that many of the crack spread open over time certainly makes we wonder if the entire issue was that the castings were not properly cured/ stress relieved before they were machined.

A "GREEN" or uncured casting will do all sort of things once its put into service.

If you find a high mile engine that is crack free, they will usually stay that way.

Ahhh well such is life.

Missy
Click to expand...

I don't think they were ever intended to be rebuilt even though many do. I liken them to 3208's. Throw aways. Back 10-15yrs ago a new 6.5 Goodwrench longblock could be had for 3-4k right from GM so why bother rebuilding ? Basically none of these engines were designed for a rebuild or they would have sleeved them like the big boys or real Detroit's.
 
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