6.5 AMG Blocks that are on the market

[Missy Good Wench]

The P400 bottom end is plenty stout.

The girdle thats used in the P400 renders the entire bottom end into a very solid unit.
The AMG Girdle is not an add on that can be added to just any 6.5 engine, but part of a complete redesign.

All 5 main caps are cast into a one piece unit that bolts to the block at the normal locations plus a modified pan rail. Th cast aluminum oil pan is called a "structural part" of the engine too.

With the new alloy in the AMG block and the much improved bottom end, I would certainly not discount the 6.5 in this stage of its evolution.

The Dmax reminds me of the Old Ford 427 side oilers and cammers. with the deep skirt on the Block and the cross bolted center mains.

If the direct injection heads do come to be, this mod will include different pistons and of course as we mentioned before, a complete new engine managment system.

A different turbo system will be added too. As I mentioned before, one of the downfalls of the 6.5 was the GMx series turbo, what with its flow limits was a serious limiting factor in the engines ability to make power.

Missy

 

[OrionThade]

The P400 bottom end is plenty stout.

The girdle thats used in the P400 renders the entire bottom end into a very solid unit.
The AMG Girdle is not an add on that can be added to just any 6.5 engine, but part of a complete redesign.

All 5 main caps are cast into a one piece unit that bolts to the block at the normal locations plus a modified pan rail. Th cast aluminum oil pan is called a "structural part" of the engine too.

With the new alloy in the AMG block and the much improved bottom end, I would certainly not discount the 6.5 in this stage of its evolution.

The Dmax reminds me of the Old Ford 427 side oilers and cammers. with the deep skirt on the Block and the cross bolted center mains.

If the direct injection heads do come to be, this mod will include different pistons and of course as we mentioned before, a complete new engine managment system.

A different turbo system will be added too. As I mentioned before, one of the downfalls of the 6.5 was the GMx series turbo, what with its flow limits was a serious limiting factor in the engines ability to make power.

Missy

I won't disagree and say that the new bottom end isn't stout. The girdle is bolted to the bottom of the block by the main cap bolts as well as, IIRC, 20 or so other bolts around the perimeter. It makes it one strong unit. But I am not convinced it will be as strong as having the extra meat cast as part of the block. If they do have a DI option some day, it will definitely make good power. But compete with D-Max, Cummins and PowerStroke? I don't see that happening without a block redesign.

But I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to be. I'd love a DI 6.5 that makes an easy 350 HP/650 ft/lbs.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

To fully understand the ultimate possibilities of the 6.5 requires looking the design differences in the IDI vs direct inject enignes.

The new bottom end in the P400 engine is plenty strong to ba able to handle a buttload of power.

The IDI heads simply concentrate too much heat within a very small area of the head to allow proper cooling.

The addition of the HO water pump and dual stats helps to eliminate the flow issues and stop the steam pockets from forming in the heads under hard useage but, its not the answer for getting the HP levels much above the 300 level and keep the engine alive.

The IDI engine has combustion primarily concentrated in the precup and then the intense heat flows out of the cup and right down onto a small area of the piston (Ricardo bowl)

This method of combustion places a lot of thermal stress on the head and the lower side of the piston.

The additon of the oil spray nozzles helps to cool the piston crowns but only just so much.

The heads still harbor a buttload of the heat thats hard to throw off.

The direct injection system places the combustion in the center of the piston where it spills out and is more readily absorbed by the cylinder walls and then into the coolant.

The P400 with the stout bottom end of the block and the forged crank should easily handle some serious power.

Currently the P400 is offered at power levels in the 400 range.

Add some direct inject pistons and heads and this engine IMHO could easily reach 500HP levels with 500 lbs of torque and maintain structural integrity and longevity.

Heat is the killer of the 6.5 in its current incarnation. The Peninsular marine engines can handle 400hp easily, simply because they have an unlimited supply of COLD water on the secondary side of the system to really pull off the heat. maintaining a 180/190 F coolant temp is a snap.

Its not just about getting more fuel in and more boost, its about keeping the damned thing from melting.

The GMx turbo is also an issue as the design holds in too much drive side pressure and heat.

Yess a better tubo and exhaust helps a lot, but the heads are the big issue. The IDI design limits what can be done in the way of power levels.

Just asome tid bits

Missy

 

[great white]

...But compete with D-Max, Cummins and PowerStroke? I don't see that happening without a block redesign...

If they do produce a direct injection engine from the P400, it is going to be into a completely new engine design by then. It won't share much else with the GM 6.5 other than the displacement and very distant architecture clues.

Essentially, the limitations of the IDI 6.5 will have been designed out.....

 

[Missy Good Wench]

The results may well be just that, "distant clues"

The design parameters were maintained to facilitate the fitting of the new engine (P400) into existing chassis.

AMG/GEP has made major changes to the block and heads of the current design.

There is no doubt that the future may hold many things but for the immediate time frame the P400 is going to do the honors.

The DMAX was designed using hard learned lessons from the 6.5 days.

My question is why the 6.2/6.5 was not designed with a deep skirt to begin with ?????
There would have been very little cost differences and the overall package could have fit right into existing rigs.

Again, corporate bean counters take their toll on many designs.

Look at the revisions that the DMAX has undergone since its introduction in 2001

The desire of the EPA to kill all the large companies, has resulted in the constant change of things.

The constant design changes just makes it nearly impossible to get anything working really well

Missy

 

[Michaeljp86]

The desire of the EPA to kill all the large companies, has resulted in the constant change of things.

The constant design changes just makes it nearly impossible to get anything working really well

Missy

Not to mention adding a fortune to the cost of the engine.

I think by the time they do all these changes to the 6.5 it wont be a 6.5 anymore. Different block, heads, pistons, injection pump, injectors. Maybe it will still be 6.5L.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

Not as you and I have known it but, still a 6.5 cube engine.

The heads and such may looks similar but will most likely change some to accomodate the high pressure rail and the different injector location.

Missy

 

[Michaeljp86]

The P400 bottom end is plenty stout.

The girdle thats used in the P400 renders the entire bottom end into a very solid unit.
The AMG Girdle is not an add on that can be added to just any 6.5 engine, but part of a complete redesign.
All 5 main caps are cast into a one piece unit that bolts to the block at the normal locations plus a modified pan rail. Th cast aluminum oil pan is called a "structural part" of the engine too.

With the new alloy in the AMG block and the much improved bottom end, I would certainly not discount the 6.5 in this stage of its evolution.

The Dmax reminds me of the Old Ford 427 side oilers and cammers. with the deep skirt on the Block and the cross bolted center mains.

If the direct injection heads do come to be, this mod will include different pistons and of course as we mentioned before, a complete new engine managment system.

A different turbo system will be added too. As I mentioned before, one of the downfalls of the 6.5 was the GMx series turbo, what with its flow limits was a serious limiting factor in the engines ability to make power.

Missy

Would it be possible to have a girdle made that can be added to the 6.2 and 6.5?

 

[Missy Good Wench]

YES it can be done and has.

There have been a couple folks that have machined their own girdled botton end from a solid chunk (Billet)

I dont really recommend this route due to the cost.

Possible? yesssss, practical, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Now if you have a machine shop at your disposal and or can do the work yourself, your good to go.

Once the girdle is all machined to fit than the mainline must be redone, so its not a simple task.

Several outfits have made some bolt on girdles from steel that go across the center main bolts.

If you want to spend $$$$$$$$$ this would not be my place of choice.

A crack free block can be upgraded by adding the Lock and stitch 10mm inserts to the center out bolts.

This addition will help maintain good integrity in the block. Add to this a nice scat crank and you are set (late 6.2 and 6.5)

The early 6.2 with the two piece rear main seal is limited to the original cranks.

Spending the sum of $$$ to make/have made a girdle will still not correct all the ills of the original blocks and IMHO would be a waste of time and materials.

Hope this helps

Missy

 

[great white]

When I had my "made in china" block cut & re-line bored for the splays both my assembler and the machinist that did the work were impressed with quality of the cast & metal in it, alas I have yet to have install the engine in my truck too much work away from the house to make the install happen yet.

Jeez Tim, it seems those bores are gonna rust before you turn a wrench....















J/K

 

[Turbine Doc]

Actually I'm going to have to tear it down again just to make sure there isn't any rust in there, as I didn't really set it up for long term storage

 

[ak diesel driver]

Would it be possible to have a girdle made that can be added to the 6.2 and 6.5?

Simon was working on one