4x4 Chevy 6.5 turbo diesel van project.

[n8in8or]

I have the new engine on the engine stand running. Not a test stand and definitly not heavy duty enough. I pieced together scraps of other engines so I could run it. Just have to get the timing worked out. Seems to idle fine at just about any timing which is kinda weird. My db4 marine based engine build wouldn't even start till the timing got majorly advanced.
Special notes to anyone that does aftermarket Harland Sharp rockers with 6:1 ratio. You will need to file the first and last guides in the head on old heads.
In test fitting I was sure they were clearing but then chasing an odd noise I pulled one and saw it was rubbing. I then pulled all the rest and noticed all the end push rods were rubbing except 1. not too cool having to file that with the head on the engine and then get the shavings out with a magnet. Going slow with a rat tail file took a few hours but did the trick. No more rubbing and none were permanently bent. Now just need to build a stand for the radiator or build a proper engine test stand.

Yeah.....when I tore my engine down to swap the Delta 202 cam out, I found the pushrods rubbing. So I pulled the heads. Good thing I did - I also had valve-to-piston contact even though I had checked clearances with clay. I still don't know why.....

 

[n8in8or]

Some pics of my current engine. Note the dual EGT probes and the "nest" of water lines and sensors in the intake. I like to know whats going on in my engines. Note the size of the turbo and no wastegate. No room for one. Also note the aluminum foil wrapped in aluminum tape. Yes the heat does burn off the sticky on the tape but it just turns hard and makes a nice shell. Pretty stinky till it is done but it does a great job without the worry about corrosion due to holding moisture near the exhaust. I do wrap it pretty tight but when it heats up it expands and then shrinks on cooling leaving an airgap. Most times I can touch that exhaust while it is running. Some won't like it but I swear by it. If I could do the same to the manifold I would.
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Note. my jerryrigged TPS I can't be bothered to buy and use a product I sell online. lol
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Do you see much temp difference between that temp sensor immediately after the turbo and the one in the center of the water mist?

 

[consaka]

Nice tip on the foil and aluminum tape. I dig the multiple water injection nozzles. What brand are you using? What pressure pump are you using?

I am using the Devils Own setup. Including their pump. I think it is like 250 psi though I may have it set at 200psi. It makes a pretty big difference when I am pulling and it comes on. It's like a kick in the seat of your pants. turbo pressure will jump from 17 psi to 20-22 instantly.

 

[consaka]

Yeah.....when I tore my engine down to swap the Delta 202 cam out, I found the pushrods rubbing. So I pulled the heads. Good thing I did - I also had valve-to-piston contact even though I had checked clearances with clay. I still don't know why.....

The thing I worried about with the rubbing was that it could hold an injector open. The rubbing was against a sharp edge on some and raised a bur that I was afraid could build up and hold the valve open just a bit.

So why did you take that cam out?

 

[consaka]

Do you see much temp difference between that temp sensor immediately after the turbo and the one in the center of the water mist?

You know I have a sensor location issue. It is far from ideal. There just isn't enough space to get the last sensor post all the injectors. Each two cylinders shares an injector with the current build I cant get a sensor beyond that without drilling a hole I don't want to drill, at least with the manifold in the engine. While I have seen an engine with a swallowed glow plug tip go another 80k miles I just don't believe in tempting that kind of fate. I do have another small injector just post turbo after the first temp sensor though.
What I see is at idle the second sensor reads hotter then the first sensor. I attribute this to heat soak. On a strong pull I can see 300 degrees on the first sensor with the second sensor lagging quite far behind. The gauges are digital so it is difficult recording the temps and drive at the same time. Sorry I can't be more precise on that. I actually have 6 injectors in there. But all of them are not running due to the fact that it can overwhelm the engine. I have an itty bitty one, the smallest you can get, before the turbo. yeah yeah I can hear everyone say you cant do that and its dumb etc etc. BUT at 200 psi I have driven through fog that was bigger droplets. Also it is almost never on. I don't have a tank for it yet so it is plumbed into the windshield washer reservoir. On a hilly trip I might need to fill it twice which I do whenever we stop at rest areas. I usually use the windshield washer fluid for a couple reasons. The main one being that it doesn't freeze. I don't have to remember to winterize it.
I have it setup to come on at 10 lbs of boost and I don't let the pump run full max. Even in a fog it puts out a lot of water fast, enough to start bogging it. I think the post turbo injector is a 4 the ones in the manifold are 2's and the one preturbo is a 1. I need to check the 1 because some people have reported them plugging up. I have been considering changing the 2's out for 1's so I can run it full pressure. But they aren't cheap.
I think the 4 I disconnected because it was swamping the engine. By swamping I mean making it stumble a bit.

 

[Will L.]

Interesting reading for sure.

The valve contact being lite and after clay verified is valve float.

 

[WarWagon]

Y. I have an itty bitty one, the smallest you can get, before the turbo. yeah yeah I can hear everyone say you cant do that and its dumb etc etc. BUT at 200 psi I have driven through fog that was bigger droplets. Also it is almost never on. I don't have a tank for it yet so it is plumbed into the windshield washer reservoir.

There are a lot of people that say you can't do things. The trick is to know when they have a real point and at the end of the day you are your own warranty station and have to live with the decision good or bad. IMO the biggest problem we have faced with the 6.x engines is a lack of good information on improvements.

I think you will enjoy this article discussing pre-turbo (aka "pre-blender" that evaporates all the water for sure) water injection being practical and noting blade erosion predicted 200K life from it in a SAAB where turbo life without it was only 60K miles. It's one of many things having to overcome a brick wall of "Are you nuts? You can't do that..." Nuts is a hair away from genius. I don't think the prototype shown ever made it to production.

Pre-Turbo Diesel Water Injection http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/07/pre-turbo-diesel-water-injection.html#more

Seriously my turbo eats enough CDR oil mist, 1 quart every 500 miles, so I just don't see the water injection issue...

 

[n8in8or]

The thing I worried about with the rubbing was that it could hold an injector open. The rubbing was against a sharp edge on some and raised a bur that I was afraid could build up and hold the valve open just a bit.

So why did you take that cam out?

I took the cam out for a couple reasons. First, ever since I had built the engine I couldn't get it to run smooth. Going down a residential street at 25mph the whole truck would shake. The only real oddball thing I had in my truck was the cam, so I determined I should swap a stock cam in. Then when I took it apart and saw the valve-to-piston contact that sealed the deal.

Now this is definitely something to know: I took the engine out a few weeks earlier than I expected to because my flexplate broke. It broke because I had it installed backwards. So.....could the backwards flexplate have been my shake because the counterweights on it were out of phase with the engine??? Dunno. The valve contact had already sealed the cam's fate.

You bring up an interesting point: what if the rubbing of the pushrods on the head had caused the valves to hang? Hmm. Right now I'm not interested in being a cam guinea pig though. I can absolutely prove changing from my DS4 to the Moose added power - significant power. I didn't notice a difference in power between how the engine was with the 202 cam and the stock Optimizer cam.

 

[n8in8or]

You know I have a sensor location issue. It is far from ideal. There just isn't enough space to get the last sensor post all the injectors. Each two cylinders shares an injector with the current build I cant get a sensor beyond that without drilling a hole I don't want to drill, at least with the manifold in the engine. While I have seen an engine with a swallowed glow plug tip go another 80k miles I just don't believe in tempting that kind of fate. I do have another small injector just post turbo after the first temp sensor though.
What I see is at idle the second sensor reads hotter then the first sensor. I attribute this to heat soak. On a strong pull I can see 300 degrees on the first sensor with the second sensor lagging quite far behind. The gauges are digital so it is difficult recording the temps and drive at the same time. Sorry I can't be more precise on that. I actually have 6 injectors in there. But all of them are not running due to the fact that it can overwhelm the engine. I have an itty bitty one, the smallest you can get, before the turbo. yeah yeah I can hear everyone say you cant do that and its dumb etc etc. BUT at 200 psi I have driven through fog that was bigger droplets. Also it is almost never on. I don't have a tank for it yet so it is plumbed into the windshield washer reservoir. On a hilly trip I might need to fill it twice which I do whenever we stop at rest areas. I usually use the windshield washer fluid for a couple reasons. The main one being that it doesn't freeze. I don't have to remember to winterize it.
I have it setup to come on at 10 lbs of boost and I don't let the pump run full max. Even in a fog it puts out a lot of water fast, enough to start bogging it. I think the post turbo injector is a 4 the ones in the manifold are 2's and the one preturbo is a 1. I need to check the 1 because some people have reported them plugging up. I have been considering changing the 2's out for 1's so I can run it full pressure. But they aren't cheap.
I think the 4 I disconnected because it was swamping the engine. By swamping I mean making it stumble a bit.

Thank you for the info. I am still planning out my WMI system that I am building around a Cooling Mist progressive controller and pump.

 

[Will L.]

I have to admit guilty on speaking dangers of pre turbo injection. Granted we did it all the time- wmi and propane on diesels and nos on gassers. But the power/efficiency improvements were worth it even if lifespan was cut by 80%- so we never really tested or even watched for it. It just is what I heard, made sense at the time, so I bit hook line and sinker.

The vibration from flywheel time cant make valves hit. Float yes, or more likely you mentioned pushrods dragging- yeah that will definitely do it on a close fit. I missed you saying yours rubbed too, Nate. You kinda said it all when you swapped out the cam and couldn't notice a difference. Huge cam lift and duration is far less affected on boosted engines. Open back window of your house and open the front door all the way way. Think of the air flowing through on a normal day for 1 minute. Now open the window and door 75% for a 55 seconds when the winds are blowing 40 mph. Boost makes cam changes far less critical. If you are going all out- max power, then both- sure. But not a daily driver. We did the math and had fully maxed out cams going from 0 overlap to flameouts. It made so little difference. I promised the cam guy to never mention his name, but it is world renown for cams. I still remember him saying "I swear this is the least effected engine I ever tested cams on. I can't make these cams, it could ruin my business." It has to be an IDI thing, because DI diesels show more improvement than 6.2/6.5,6.9/7.3, om601/603
Less flow resistance made as big of improvements, usually bigger by everything I have ever seen.

I was thinking about the wmi tank issue in your van- what about the platic tanks that were made for conversion vans to have clean and gray water... maybe already cheap kits made out there to give you good storage volume.

 

[WarWagon]

@Will L. Yeah cams do make a difference on DI diesels that you can feel like I swapped during the cumapart rebuild! Improved the bottom end power. Lights the turbo quicker and you feel it SOTP.

I wonder if it's the precups or something else affecting the cam's ability to improve things? Was this testing on the asthma attack turbo's? Engine can't breathe with the GMx turbo so I could see that limiting results to zilch.

 

[Will L.]

I've seen no sotp difference on hx35, and on a hx40 on descent set up 6.5s. I chipped in $ and time on both so that the guys would swap cam only. We did both towing and empty. You could "feel" the idle difference but only a trailerpark cam lope vibration. As for mpg- nada. 0-60 was questionably 0.05 seconds quicker on the big holset @25 psi boost with a hopped up db2, but he was rolling coal level of trying to get every drop of power out of it both before and after cam.

My twin turbo barely saw any difference when using pump diesel. So yeah gmx turbos, but they were worked over and 1 per bank. How much? Haha- 1/10 second in 1/4 mile. But it was all in the 60' range. It hurt the 2nd half of the run.

Only reason I needed the big flowing cam was the nitropropane would flash back up the intake and blow the turbo compressor side housings apart. My exhaust valves burned to a crisp every other run I had to have them open so much. The turbos had to be swapped every 4th run cause the turbine wheels would cook- thats why we shot liquid propane into the turbine (hot side) housing. So much fuel flooded and put out the flame and cooled the turbine wheel. Then air inlets in the exhaust sucked in oxygen and burned it all coming out the pipe like a top fueler. Without the propane going into the turbo it wouldn't last a run.

What do I want in a cam? Strength and rigidity. Cam flex is hell on bearings. Damn drive gears should be in the middle of the cam/ crank not the front (sorry different rant). Thats why I seek optimizer or p400 cam. Metulurgy wins in my book.

Oh yeah, and yes we tried "better" cams with no porting, or just gasket matching. A great flow job in the heads will kick the crap out of a cam in idi any day.

Old Ford and Benz is not my experience, just talking to other guys that waste their time on them instead of old Chevys. While I was doing the crazy 6.5 stuff, i had a acquaintance going half nuts with his Ford, so I watched a lot of it from a distance. Bend- find an aftermarket cam, I dare you. And Benz guys will drop $ for parts, yet even the AMG engines used the factory cam.

 

[consaka]

There are a lot of people that say you can't do things. The trick is to know when they have a real point and at the end of the day you are your own warranty station and have to live with the decision good or bad.

You got that dead to rights.

I think you will enjoy this article discussing pre-turbo (aka "pre-blender" that evaporates all the water for sure) water injection being practical and noting blade erosion predicted 200K life from it in a SAAB where turbo life without it was only 60K miles.
Pre-Turbo Diesel Water Injection http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/07/pre-turbo-diesel-water-injection.html#more

I'll check that out. Sounds interesting for sure.

"Are you nuts? You can't do that..." Nuts is a hair away from genius.

Pre-Turbo Diesel Water Injection http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/07/pre-turbo-diesel-water-injection.html#more
Seriously my turbo eats enough CDR oil mist, 1 quart every 500 miles, so I just don't see the water injection issue...

Lol I got a few engines like that. Seriously though water before the turbo can cause serious erosion issues especially the bigger the particles are. Those blades are turning so fast it can make the blades look like sand was going through them. As a different experiment one time I ran water through from a hose with the engine revved up no load. Didn't seem to hurt the turbo. Can't remember the reason I did that. I was much younger then. It will come to me. Probably tonight right before I fall asleep.

 

[consaka]

Now this is definitely something to know: I took the engine out a few weeks earlier than I expected to because my flexplate broke. It broke because I had it installed backwards. So.....could the backwards flexplate have been my shake because the counterweights on it were out of phase with the engine??? Dunno. The valve contact had already sealed the cam's fate.

Oh man you are lucky you didn't break a crank or something. But yeah that counterweight would be 180 Degrees out of phase which would be the equivalent of double that weight out of balance. eeeks. You one lucky man.

 

[consaka]

I have to admit guilty on speaking dangers of pre turbo injection. Granted we did it all the time- wmi and propane on diesels and nos on gassers. But the power/efficiency improvements were worth it even if lifespan was cut by 80%- so we never really tested or even watched for it. It just is what I heard, made sense at the time, so I bit hook line and sinker.

The vibration from flywheel time cant make valves hit. Float yes, or more likely you mentioned pushrods dragging- yeah that will definitely do it on a close fit. I missed you saying yours rubbed too, Nate. You kinda said it all when you swapped out the cam and couldn't notice a difference. Huge cam lift and duration is far less affected on boosted engines. Open back window of your house and open the front door all the way way. Think of the air flowing through on a normal day for 1 minute. Now open the window and door 75% for a 55 seconds when the winds are blowing 40 mph. Boost makes cam changes far less critical. If you are going all out- max power, then both- sure. But not a daily driver. We did the math and had fully maxed out cams going from 0 overlap to flameouts. It made so little difference. I promised the cam guy to never mention his name, but it is world renown for cams. I still remember him saying "I swear this is the least effected engine I ever tested cams on. I can't make these cams, it could ruin my business." It has to be an IDI thing, because DI diesels show more improvement than 6.2/6.5,6.9/7.3, om601/603
Less flow resistance made as big of improvements, usually bigger by everything I have ever seen.

I was thinking about the wmi tank issue in your van- what about the platic tanks that were made for conversion vans to have clean and gray water... maybe already cheap kits made out there to give you good storage volume.

I hear you on the cam thing. I was thinking about a cam "upgrade" and did some research on it a couple years ago. On a different forum they were discussing the ins and outs and it completely made sense to me that on boosted engines it will make less of a difference. Mostly the cams seem to make a big difference on naturally aspirated engines. Particularly gas. Flow and cam change on a 350 gasser can make massive improvements. but all given total cost a trouble you might as well just throw a turbo on that 350 and run relatively low boost. The power gains from that alone are going to be more then most people need.

Originally my grandfather had both fresh and greywater tanks under the sink. I wanted that space for batteries and moved the tanks underneath. Unfortunately some yahoo in a ford escort decided to make a hard left in front of me while I was passing him at 55 mph. Rather than stay in my lane and hit him in the door I took the ditch. What the accident didn't rip off the bottom of the van the tow truck guys did since they pulled it out semi sideways using the bottom of the van like a skid plate to pivot it on the edge of the road. Years later I still haven't found new 5 gallon tanks despite having plenty of room what with the lift necessary for the 4x4 conversion. So if you know of a good source for those kind of tanks I am all ears. I could use 3 of them.

 

[consaka]

Fiddling with timing. The current ebay specials on the timing kits that clamp to the injector line read completely different then the luminosity probe kind.
Previous engines I just lined the marks up and let go out the door. My last engine had a newer style cover with the db4 pump. There were no marks to line up. Nor were there timing marks on the cover. I did that one by sound and I think that while it works really good it is slightly retarded or right at TDC. I have 600 degree EGT temps while cruising at 70 mph. It is in the ball park but thats about it. Doing it by ear I just listened for the diesel rattle. As far as I can tell that distictive clatter sound comes right after TDC and just gets louder the more you advance it. So in setting the timing by ear I just listen for that clatter and give it a teeny bit more. cold advance should really clatter by comparison. Hot it should just. Still makes for a fairly quiet engine at temp.
This new engine I am trying to be precise. According to some research 6 degrees is ideal compromise but without knowing how they were arriving at 6 degrees it is hard to tell if that was real actual timing or what some gauge told them. The kent moore luminosity gauge I just got seems a lot more precise then the ebay gauge that clamps on the injection line. Unfortunately I can use the magnetic sensor because of two things. One there is no notch that I can see in the fluiddampr. And two there is no room with the '97+ accessory drive system. The power steering pump is literally less then an inch away from the probe holder and the probe needs a good 4-5 inches easy. Saves me from figuring out the offset I guess.
I notice that opening the throttle seems to retard the timing. Some forum reading was indicating it advances the timing. I was under the impression that retarding the timing under load was the goal. Someone is confused somewhere and soon to be me I suspect.

 

[WarWagon]

I notice that opening the throttle seems to retard the timing. Someone is confused somewhere and soon to be me I suspect.

Opening the throttle retards the timing. You may have read one of my 1st posts...

Why is "retard" when adding throttle correct?

More throttle under a fixed high load heats things up. The hotter the precups, air, turbo etc. are the quicker the injected diesel evaporates and lights off. The heat from heavy throttle in effect advances the timing as peak cylinder pressure happens sooner due to reduced diesel ignition delay. Same RPM with less fuel/load isn't as hot so it takes longer to evaporate and light thus more timing is needed to get the peak cyl pressure at the same ATDC degrees.

Best advice I got for timing by ear is to roll up on 45 MPH. Steady throttle hot engine of course. Add throttle and the diesel rattle should go away as the precups heat up. Check a glow plug or two at the next oil change and look for a rust like texture. If you see that the timing is advanced too much and eroding the glow plugs.

Used to have a good article here, but, you need the wayback machine to perhaps see it. archive.org/web/

oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm

 

[consaka]

Opening the throttle retards the timing. You may have read one of my 1st posts...

Why is "retard" when adding throttle correct?

More throttle under a fixed high load heats things up. The hotter the precups, air, turbo etc. are the quicker the injected diesel evaporates and lights off. The heat from heavy throttle in effect advances the timing as peak cylinder pressure happens sooner due to reduced diesel ignition delay. Same RPM with less fuel/load isn't as hot so it takes longer to evaporate and light thus more timing is needed to get the peak cyl pressure at the same ATDC degrees.

Best advice I got for timing by ear is to roll up on 45 MPH. Steady throttle hot engine of course. Add throttle and the diesel rattle should go away as the precups heat up. Check a glow plug or two at the next oil change and look for a rust like texture. If you see that the timing is advanced too much and eroding the glow plugs.

Used to have a good article here, but, you need the wayback machine to perhaps see it. archive.org/web/

oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm

Yeah that link didn't work though I remember reading it.
Ok I just found it and yeah I recollect that and also found the research article the graph is based on. When I get time I am going to try to reconstruct that page and host it on my website. It has good info and it is sad to see someone appears to have hijacked that domain. Perhaps he didn't pay the bill or something. Tons of redirects now, which shows someone is trying to profit off the age and popularity of the page.

 

[consaka]

So I guess my main question now is why set the timing with the engine revved up? Why not at idle at 600 rpm?

 

[Will L.]

The idle rpm is hard to tell how it is working. Making adjustments based on the higher rpm is easier for most people to fuess proper positioning on. Rpm would be better reference than mph due to gearing differences.

There is a kentmoore tool for aligning and stamping the timing mark into new covers. I have ligned up db2 over against ds4 cover and made the mark that way.

Luminosity probe timing is different from injector line inductive pickup timing slightly iirc.

I wish I could find the old timing instructions for inductive style to post it. If anyone has it, please do post it and it needs to go into the stickies. Those units seem more available still. The over style the crank sensor piece is always mia and they wear out.