Why I DIY

[Big T]

So while my wife was in surgery, I ran a bunch of errands, including taking the ‘99 Suburban in to have the tires rotated and road force balance, plus alignment. They did the tires, but came back with an $1,123 estimate to replace both upper control arms and ball joints, both inner and outer tie rod ends right side, plus the tie rod sleeve on the right side. I knew this was BS a because I had replaced all of this within the last 20K miles per my posts here. Plus I had done the requisite tests for play in the ball joints and tie rod ends. Also the tie rod sleeves are fresh aftermarket hex sleeves with locking nuts (forget the brand). All the ball joints, tie rod ends and upper control arms are the top of the line MOOG offerings. They said they couldn’t align it until all this stuff was replaced. Complete BS.

So I need instructions to self align to correct the veering right and to level set the steering wheel. Else I just drive it as is.

P.S. Wife is out of surgery and in recovery. Surgeon called and said it went extremely well. They have to keep her still, laying down for 4 hours.

 

[Husker6.5]

I'd tell them that they're full of it, everything they're telling you needs to be replaced had already been within the last 20K miles with Moog parts, you know damn well that they don't wear out that fast compared to OEM that can go 150K before needing replacement and that you'll take it to a different shop and when they confirm that your tech was trying to rip you off, you'll take them to court. Then tell them that if they agree to align it without making any of the unnecessary repairs they "recommend", you want a printout of the before and after specs from their alignment machine of the front and rear specs for Toe, Caster, Camber and F/R tracking (rear axle parallel to front hub line). If not, take it to a different shop.

I had a similar, but not same, situation with my old 95 Camry with about 342K on it at the time five years ago. Had put new tires on it a couple of weeks before and wanted it aligned before taking a 1600 mile road trip. Took it to the shop and was called about an hour later by the tech saying he couldn't align it until I replaced the right lower ball joint and the left rear adjustable rear tracking bar. Told him I'd get it done and bring it back to get aligned. So I picked it up, took it home and raised up the front of my Camry. Yup, passenger lower ball joint sloppy. Went around back and scooted under, rubber in the outboard eye of the rear adjustable tracking link was rotting and crumbling. So I ordered a pair of lower ball joints (might as well replace both if doing one, as the other is due to wear out soon) and a pair of rear lower adjustable tracking bars (for the same reason), did a few hours of wrenching the Saturday after they came in and got an appointment for it to be aligned that Wednesday. No issues from the tech about parts needing replacement.

Or, you could also try power washing everything so it looks like it was cleaned off to be worked on, then take your Burb back in a week from now and tell them you had everything replaced they said needed replacing, now align it, and see what other "needs replacing" B.S. they can come up with, if any, before aligning it, then go to what I suggested in the first paragraph. Jmho.

 

[MrMarty51]

I dont know if I would trust a shop to do an alignment on My truck, after they tried to tear Me a new one.

 

[schiker]

Take it somewhere else. Now you can’t trust that shop. It is insulting to listen to people try and get money out of you. In the auto world It is near exhausting it seems some days to deal with dealers, insurance, service.

Are you starting from scratch?
I’d take it somewhere else. I think shade tree alignment takes practice. Don’t mean to say you are not capable just I did my tie rods and wanted steering wheel straight and aligned well. I got it driveable but took it somewhere
And depends what is out toe is mostly what i have heard set at home and mostly what is adjusted on these trucks.
I have heard of setting toe in with boards on outside of wheels. Measure behind wheel compare to front of wheel. Set a little toe inward think 1/8 to 1/4” iirc test drive and see if it helps. And this sorta gets down to how straight your boards are how well you can get them square on tires. Measuring device ground etc. This won’t center steering wheel. Maybe air up tires to max and see how it looks. Bounce up and down take a few measurements Trying the technique I didn’t have a ton of confidence. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted and someone else has better instructions.

 

[schiker]

Maybe it was centering a 6’ board and extrapolate the toe I now am second guessing myself 1/4” toe in right at tires sounds like a lot. Maybe measure what you have and adjust a little at the time test drive repeat.

 

[Husker6.5]

Then there's the caster and camber adjustments made at the upper control arm mounting points.

 

[schiker]

Don’t think caster chamber really affect tire wear much. One of those requires a kit to adjust. If it has never been adjusted with the kit then it is probably ok. I was recommended not to do the knock out kit. I took mine somewhere and the
Mechanic didn’t know there was a knock out and kit for it. Said the adjustment was stuck and he didn’t want to break it. I lost faith and took it somewhere else.

I agree for piece of mind I’d like an actual alignment but toe is biggest bang for buck. I dislike how most places will say it’s a “4 wheel alignment” and prices is higher than the old days of “front end alignment”. The rear isn’t adjustable.

 

[Big T]

I'd tell them that they're full of it, everything they're telling you needs to be replaced had already been within the last 20K miles with Moog parts, you know damn well that they don't wear out that fast compared to OEM that can go 150K before needing replacement and that you'll take it to a different shop and when they confirm that your tech was trying to rip you off, you'll take them to court. Then tell them that if they agree to align it without making any of the unnecessary repairs they "recommend", you want a printout of the before and after specs from their alignment machine of the front and rear specs for Toe, Caster, Camber and F/R tracking (rear axle parallel to front hub line). If not, take it to a different shop.

I had a similar, but not same, situation with my old 95 Camry with about 342K on it at the time five years ago. Had put new tires on it a couple of weeks before and wanted it aligned before taking a 1600 mile road trip. Took it to the shop and was called about an hour later by the tech saying he couldn't align it until I replaced the right lower ball joint and the left rear adjustable rear tracking bar. Told him I'd get it done and bring it back to get aligned. So I picked it up, took it home and raised up the front of my Camry. Yup, passenger lower ball joint sloppy. Went around back and scooted under, rubber in the outboard eye of the rear adjustable tracking link was rotting and crumbling. So I ordered a pair of lower ball joints (might as well replace both if doing one, as the other is due to wear out soon) and a pair of rear lower adjustable tracking bars (for the same reason), did a few hours of wrenching the Saturday after they came in and got an appointment for it to be aligned that Wednesday. No issues from the tech about parts needing replacement.

Or, you could also try power washing everything so it looks like it was cleaned off to be worked on, then take your Burb back in a week from now and tell them you had everything replaced they said needed replacing, now align it, and see what other "needs replacing" B.S. they can come up with, if any, before aligning it, then go to what I suggested in the first paragraph. Jmho.

I did tell them that all that stuff is new as of 20K miles ago and that they are full of it. I thanked them for the free tire rotation and road force balancing, took their estimate and walked out.

Other than some slight feathering in the middle of the tread, tire wear is normal. Wheel is slightly cocked left while driving straight. It returns to level when I let go, but then it will steer right.

When I did the front end I initially set the toe using masonry leveling string between jack stands with the wheels on greased aluminum plates. Did not bother with camber and caster and simply drove it to my favorite alignment shop in SoCal. They did the alignment, but it came back with the wheel clocked slightly to the left and steering as described. It has always been this way as long as I’ve owned the truck, so not a big deal.

I had just greased all the joints about 3 weeks ago. Wondering if he was looking for pay to work on them?

 

[Big T]

Tell me how that tie rod sleeve is worn and needs replacement:

 

[schiker]

Yeah it is not. Good for you not paying.
Hit any big potholes or parked it with a front tire higher? How much do u have torsion bars cranked are they close to even? Any of that move? Sounds like the alignment shop forgot to straighten the steering wheel.

Did you get a print out when u aligned it?

To check chamber I think they have to set ride height to a spec. Could they have lowered it so print out looks good then raised it back up? if u 285/75-16?

Yeah I didn’t feel real good about board on tire method .

 

[Rockabillyrat]

These trucks are hard to get the alignment dead on sometimes. Alot of times I have to set the caster out of spec on the right side to get rid of a pull to the right. Which is ok because caster dosent cause tire wear issues like camber or toe. Its really hard to get that set correctly at home. But you can get one of those camber caster racing alignment tools that mounts on the rim. That will probably get it really close. You need turn plates with degree measurements to do the caster sweep though. Then set the toe like you did before.

Its hard to say why they wanted to replace the whole front end without seeing your truck and testing the front end myself. But I will say this, we had so many early failures from Moog parts we stopped installing them on customers trucks. Now all we use is Movatech and zero issues so far.

 

[Big T]

Yeah it is not. Good for you not paying.
Hit any big potholes or parked it with a front tire higher? How much do u have torsion bars cranked are they close to even? Any of that move? Sounds like the alignment shop forgot to straighten the steering wheel.

Did you get a print out when u aligned it?

To check chamber I think they have to set ride height to a spec. Could they have lowered it so print out looks good then raised it back up? if u 285/75-16?

Yeah I didn’t feel real good about board on tire method .

Probably have a print out at Fullerton home. Alignment hasn’t really changed since I last did it after the GMT 800 brake conversion. I checked posts here and I had 210K miles in my summary at bottoms of the post in 2016. Truck just hit 231K miles yesterday. I’ll probably take the truck down to SoCal over Thanksgiving as I have a few things I need to haul back to Montana that won’t go in the 4Runner. I have a good alignment shop down there.

Tech probably saw the tie rod sleeves and wanted them for his own truck.

 

[Big T]

These trucks are hard to get the alignment dead on sometimes. Alot of times I have to set the caster out of spec on the right side to get rid of a pull to the right. Which is ok because caster dosent cause tire wear issues like camber or toe. Its really hard to get that set correctly at home. But you can get one of those camber caster racing alignment tools that mounts on the rim. That will probably get it really close. You need turn plates with degree measurements to do the caster sweep though. Then set the toe like you did before.

Its hard to say why they wanted to replace the whole front end without seeing your truck and testing the front end myself. But I will say this, we had so many early failures from Moog parts we stopped installing them on customers trucks. Now all we use is Movatech and zero issues so far.

I thought MOOG bought Mevotech which is considered their lesser line? I know the MOOG Problem Solver is their top of the line and they have a lesser brand that they acquired.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

Mevotech (got it right this time) I believe is made is Canada. We use the TTX series with good results. MOOG was bought out by federal mogul years ago and has turned into a white box special with a Moog sticker. The problem solver series is still Moog parts but they are not same so we stopped using them. Well until recently, with the supply issues we are using whatever we can get.

 

[MrMarty51]

For toe in. At the shop, they had a flat 8X8” plate with two arms welded to it, about six or eight inches tall. At the top, holes drilled through both arms. Then a length of flat steel that fit between the arms and one end sticking out about 8 to 10 inches and that was ground to make a relatively sharp point at the top side. Then the other end stuck out about six inches, a smallish hole drilled into the lower side of the corner and a strongish spring attached between the plate and the arm.
The front end was then jacked up, both sides at once, or, if it is easier, one side at a time, then the point of the marking device was shoved against the tire with plenty of spring pressure pushing the point into the approximate middle of the tread of the tire. Rotate the tire to scribe a line all the way around, firmly holding the plate of the scribing device so it dont move around.
Scribe a line all the way around both tires.
The state had a regular measuring device that was long enough to reach the width of both tires, there was stems attached to a slidable fixture. The ine end of the fixture has marks from zero, going both ways and measured in 32nds. That end set to zero and aligned to the mark of one tire, the other pointer was then loosesned via a wing bollt and the pointer set to the mark on that side. Then the measuring stick was moved to the opposite side, usually to the front with the non measure pointer set to the scribed mark, and then, the pointer with the zero set to and moved inwards or outwards to align with the scribed mark of the other tire.
Read the marks and that was where the toe in is set at.
On the pickup trucks, I am guessing that 3/32nds would be plenty.
This system wont get the steer wheel centered, unless some time and practice is used but it is accurate.
A tape measure will also work but then it requires two people, with the other person fully understanding the importance of placing his/her end of the tape, accurately and directly, onto the scribe mark with each adjustment.

 

[MrMarty51]

Here is a couple of items. Not exactly what we used but close enough to get the job done.
Tire scribe.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lng-79610

And the measuring stick. The stick we had, the pointers could be adjusted up or down for different tire heights.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lng-79620

 

[Husker6.5]

Iirc, Quick Steer is the "Moog" economy line. OEM design, non-greasable, standard bearing design (not MOOG's 'gusher' bearing surface). Yeah, Federal-Mogul bought out a lot of independent, high quality brands, like TRW, Moog, or Clevite (it's like Allied Filters and what used to be quality brands like Fram).

It's Corporate capitalism at its worst. Can't build a better mousetrap than your competition? Buy out the Acme Mousetrap Company, keep the name/reputation, make crap mousetraps at a higher profit margin with the cheapest labor possible, let the suckers keep buying Acme, thinking they're buying the best.

 

[WarWagon]

Unlikely, but, with the low quality parts we get now it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion or check em yourself just to be sure. Yes it's hard to get the steering wheel centered esp. if the rag joint on the top of the steering box to steering wheel shaft is sloppy.

My buddy had just rebuilt the front end on his minivan.

The shop wanted to replace the new tie rods. "Show me: I just replaced those." After that little "misunderstanding" at least they did a good job on the alignment.

 

[Big T]

Unlikely, but, with the low quality parts we get now it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion or check em yourself just to be sure. Yes it's hard to get the steering wheel centered esp. if the rag joint on the top of the steering box to steering wheel shaft is sloppy.

My buddy had just rebuilt the front end on his minivan.

The shop wanted to replace the new tie rods. "Show me: I just replaced those." After that little "misunderstanding" at least they did a good job on the alignment.

Replaced the rag joint lower steering shaft with the Borgeson with universal joint from Twisted Steel. PITA to get it in due to the snug fit on the upper, but worth every penny once installed.

The tie rod sleeves are by ProForged:



I’ve done the tests for worn ball joints and tie rods and there is NO PLAY. I think he was scared off by the grease from my recent lube job and thought they had blown out. So I cleaned them all up an will take it to a pure alignment shop.

 

[Husker6.5]

Yeah, @WarWagon, the Pandemic has hit businesses hard, as well as ethics. Wouldn't surprise me in the least techs working on flat rate would think that they have an "easy mark" when they see a new part installed and figure the customer wouldn't know any better if they told them, "XYZ needs to be replaced before I can do the work", gets the authorization to do the "work", then charges the customer for the "new" parts plus shop markup and the R&R labor on top of the original work. So instead of getting $40 for doing the alignment, the tech just lets your vehicle sit there for three hours while doing something else, then does the alignment and gets $120 for the "R&R" of the unneeded, not replaced parts and doing the alignment. Or in @Big T's case, a new set of ProForged tie rod sleeves for his own vehicle while @Big T rolls out with a new pair of cheap CKO sleeves on it.