Timing issues Help

[Crankme69]

Here is another one with the TDC offset at -1.85

Notice the engine coolant temp here on this one cold advance was ON

Snapshot created 12/18/2010 9:56:58 AM
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ENGINE SENSORS
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Engine run time: 00:00:11
Boost pressure (MAP): 13.81 PSI
Desired EGR: 15.23 PSI
Desired idle: 919 RPM
EGR pressure: 14.43 PSI
EGR duty cycle: 0 %
Engine coolant temp: 14.9 F°
Engine speed: 900 RPM
Glow plug relay feedback: 3.6 Volts
Glow plug voltage: 3.1 Volts
Ignition voltage: 13.7 Volts
Wastegate duty cycle: 77.3 %

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INFORMATION SENSORS
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PCM Calibration ID: 6865
Current DTCs: 0
Accel. ped. pos. 1: 0.53 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 2: 4.51 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 3: 4.08 Volts
Barometric pressure (BARO): 13.56 PSI
Battery voltage: 14.1 Volts
Fuel temperature: 42.8 F°
Intake air temp: 13.8 F°
Throttle position: 0 %
Turbo boost (Calculated): 0.25 PSI
Voltage reference sensor: 1.4 Volts

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INJECTION PUMP SENSORS
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Actual injection pump timing: 39.42 Deg °
Cam reference missed: 0 Counts
Crank reference missed: 0 Counts
Fuel calibration: 145 Counts
Fuel rate: 19.38 mm³
Fuel rate - Cruise: 0 mm³
Fuel rate - Idle: 17.81 mm³
Fuel rate - Maximum transient: 49.06 mm³
Fuel rate - Throttle requested: 0 mm³
Injection pulse width: 2.06 ms
Injection timing - Measured: 16.5 Deg °
Injection timing - Desired: 16.5 Deg °
TDC offset: -1.85 Deg °

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TRANSMISSION SENSORS
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3-2 PWM solenoid duty cycle: 0 %
Cruise target speed: 0 MPH
Cruise speed error: 0 MPH
Current gear of transmission: 1 Gear
Current torque signal pressure: 25 PSI
Current transmission ratio: 1:4 Ratio
Error between desired and actual shift times for latest 1-2 upshift: 0.42 Sec
Error between desired and actual shift times for latest 2-3 upshift: 0 Sec
Force motor (PCS) - Duty cycle: 34 %
Force motor (PCS) - Feedback current: 0.82 Amps
Force motor (PCS) - Reference current: 0.82 Amps
Time of latest 1-2 upshift: 0 Sec
Time of latest 2-3 upshift: 0 Sec
TCC PWM solenoid duty cycle: 0 %
TCC slippage: -242 RPM
Transmission input speed: 1190 RPM
Transmission output speed: 0 RPM
Transmission temperature: 15.4 F°
Turbine speed: 1190 RPM
Vehicle speed: 0 MPH

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STATUS FLAGS
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Shift lever:
Park/Neutral

Cruise control:
Cruise Off condition

TCC mode word 1:
TCC is being forced off
TCC enable solenoid valid
Low threshold for COPETCC selected
Use hyst. for vehicle speed
TCC is in release mode, slipping
TCC is in locked-adjust mode
TCC is being applied
• Negative slip recently prevents apply

TCC mode word 2:
TCC PWM is on
Perform release
Perform apply
• Min. threshold occurred
TCC Bus. is valid
NDT occurs
Delay is in progress
Min. throttle occured

IOD port A:
Glow plug relay - Closed/Open
• Stepper motor inhibit - Run/Inhibit
Service Throttle Lamp - On/Off
EGR vent enable - On/Off
• Shift A - On/Off
Shift B - On/Off
TCC enable - On/Off (4L60E only)
• Force Motor enable - On/Off

IOD SOD status register:
• Coolant temp. pullup select - On/Off
• Trans. temp. pullup select - On/Off
Fuel calibration temp. select - On/Off
Check Engine Lamp - On/Off
PWM1 - Reset/Normal
PWM2 - Reset/Normal
PWM3 - Reset/Normal
PWM4 - Reset/Normal

System status word:
FM shut off due to low battery
Force Motor pulse in progress
• Power is On/Off
COP2 is being serviced
Delco instrumentation PROM
• Powertrain is in motion

Discrete flags:
Brake - On/Off
A/C Compressor - Engaged/Disengaged
Power enrichment - Active/Inactive
Kickdown pattern - Active/Inactive
Four-Wheel Drive Low - Active/Inactive
Cruise low - Active/Inactive
Diagnostic - Requested/Not requested


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GMTDScan Tech © Engh Motors - www.EnghMotors.com

 

[Mudbath]

Will the more I think about it the more I think I have to move the IP more +. With it giving a -2.02 before and the code 88 it was even more negative and we don't know how negative. Also I was getting random code 34 which probably means the stepper motor is having trouble controlling the advance one way or another. Now when I tried the Learn with Reving the engine it advanced far enough to give me the -.07. So after I finish using it tomorrow (people depending on me with the truck), I will move the pump more positive because my pump casting edge is 1/8 inch or more to the driver's side of the notch. I will at least make it even and then try a Set and Learn routine.

Does this sound like a plan?

Thanks for the help.

Crankme 69 was that before and after tune, the measured and desired are significantly different even taking into account the TDCO?

 

[Crankme69]

That 2nd one I posted above was with the cold advance ON, here is another at -1.85 for you to compare with the cold advance OFF

Snapshot created 10/29/2010 6:37:42 PM
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ENGINE SENSORS
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Engine run time: 00:14:14
Boost pressure (MAP): 14.2 PSI
Desired EGR: 15.23 PSI
Desired idle: 600 RPM
EGR pressure: 14.5 PSI
EGR duty cycle: 0 %
Engine coolant temp: 178 F°
Engine speed: 581 RPM
Glow plug relay feedback: 0.1 Volts
Glow plug voltage: 0.2 Volts
Ignition voltage: 12.6 Volts
Wastegate duty cycle: 69.5 %

__________________________________________________________________
INFORMATION SENSORS
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PCM Calibration ID: 6865
Current DTCs: 0
Accel. ped. pos. 1: 0.53 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 2: 4.51 Volts
Accel. ped. pos. 3: 4.06 Volts
Barometric pressure (BARO): 13.61 PSI
Battery voltage: 12.6 Volts
Fuel temperature: 92.6 F°
Intake air temp: 68 F°
Throttle position: 0 %
Turbo boost (Calculated): 0.59 PSI
Voltage reference sensor: 1.2 Volts

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INJECTION PUMP SENSORS
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Actual injection pump timing: 27.19 Deg °
Cam reference missed: 0 Counts
Crank reference missed: 0 Counts
Fuel calibration: 145 Counts
Fuel rate: 6.25 mm³
Fuel rate - Cruise: 0 mm³
Fuel rate - Idle: 5.94 mm³
Fuel rate - Maximum transient: 42.5 mm³
Fuel rate - Throttle requested: 0 mm³
Injection pulse width: 1.92 ms
Injection timing - Measured: 6.9 Deg °
Injection timing - Desired: 6.9 Deg °
TDC offset: -1.85 Deg °

HTH's

 

[Mudbath]

Well I got the pump moved towards the driver's side about .040 and it is still not lined up even with the notch. I don't want to do the Set and Learn until after I am finished using it tomorrow. Just in case things go bad (you know how that happens). I am wondering if my Actual injection pump timing will come down to where yours is, I am about 10* higher than your latest snapshot.

 

[buddy]

If you want to go more + on the TDCO you should move the IP towards the passenger side.

The reason CrankMe's Actual injection pump timing is lower, is that his programmed desired injection pump timing was 6.9 degrees, and yours is 11.7 degrees, so yours is almost 5 cam degrees advanced while idling, which is 10 crank degrees which is what that number is more representitive of. That is how the chips are programmed. He has another program on his chip that should show more like what you are seeing because it is advanced to 10 or 11 degrees at idle.

The IP position doesnt really explain the stalling, has to be something else, which is why I would investigate grounds and the PMD first.

 

[Mudbath]

I have got the original PMD that used to be on the pump but carry it in the tool box now. I have to rig something up to mount it to for heat sink before I can try it. I tried moving the pump to the passenger side about .040 and tried to run Time set and Learn and it still stalls with tons of blueish smoke and it did show a +.2.02 turned back and tried again by revving and obtained a .53 so it isn't throwing a code 88 at present. I just don't get it, I had set the timing not that long ago and had no problems. I am starting to think maybe a bad CPS. Will rig up the PMD with heatsink and try it again.

 

[Mudbath]

Different PMD and same results, Does any one know what the #8 fuse in the inside fuse box is for - marked Crank (10 amp) no power to either side key on or off nada! Have the batteries disconnected for 1/2 hour or so to possible reset ECM,

only code is the nasty code 88 cause it is at +2.02 right now and that is with IP towards the driver's side even more than before I started. Should the engine start and run with either the CPS OR the OS disconnected (not both)

 

[buddy]

The engine should start with either one or the other disconnected. It will take more cranking though, about 10 seconds possibly. However I have seen where a marginal OS doesnt let the engine start, but works once running.

The crank fuse provides power to the LP relay, powering it while you are cranking, thats how you can run the LP with the engine off, tranny in gear, and turn ignition to "start" as though tou would be cranking. So you should get power there only with the ignition in the crank/start position.

 

[Mudbath]

Fuse... never thought of that...thanks, I know the LP works.
Actually with the crank sensor disconnected I could not start, but maybe did not try long enough. With OS disconnected it was hard to start but would not stay running. Don't know where to go next.

To clean the OS is it hard to do, or is there a write up on that. Looks like the upper polonium has to come off to gain access.

 

[buddy]

There is something definately wrong if if wont stay running with the OS unplugged, and it wont start without the CPS plugged in. The OS probably needs to be cleaned, and the CPS may be not working correctly, or a wiring issue.

For getting to the OS, it isnt real hard, but yes, have to remove the upper plenum, link below is a good read. My recommended maintenace file has a description of this as well and how to make sure you get it back together correctly, making sure the warm idle fuel rate is 7-9mm3. The OS position actually affects the PCMs commanded fuel rate value.
http://www.mamut.net/royh/newsdet9.htm

 

[Mudbath]

I had just finish finding and reading that thread, Doesn't look too bad to do. If I just remove the 6 torx screws and lift it off should I be able to clean it? Is there like a little lens on the bottom of that sensor? I seem to remember guys doing an Optic bump back a while ago. I will not as I do not need to introduce something else into the picture.

 

[Mudbath]

Pulled OP and cleaned the window...not a bad job to do. This however did not fix the problem.:mad2::???:

So for some reason unknown I could have a bad

CPS (new ....Standard brand)

OP have no way of checking it. If I absolutely new it was bad I would buy one (probably dealer item and my kids are both married off so no one left to sell to buy it)

Computer chip... every thing else works and it seems to run well

I managed to get a +.53 TDCO at present, so code 88 gone.

I would like to find out why this is happening in Time Set and Learn. What components are being used to obtain this other than the one listed above?

Pulling what little hair I have left out. Help if you can (fix truck, not pull hair out). Thanks Bob

 

[buddy]

Now that you got the OS back in, what is the warm idle fuel rate? And will it not start with the CPS unplugged still? And even if it wont start if the PCM was getting timing info from the OS, it should set a DTC19 for the CPS being unplugged. And likewise if you crank with the OS unplugged you should get DTC17 and 18. If that isnt happening there is something not right.

It could be that just maybe there is air in the fuel, because it will cause weird crap to happen.

 

[Mudbath]

Fuel rate @ idle = 11.56 mm

I did not try the starting with CPS unplugged again

Are these Historic Codes or would they only show in Current codes, I will do some more test to gather that info.

I was thinking too if someone had time to run Time Set and Learn with CPS unplugged first, then OS unplugged next to see if they can emulate what I am getting in GMTDScan Tech that would maybe tell me what is gone south in mine. Thanks for hanging in there

 

[Mudbath]

Looking at the before and after (snap shots) for the fuel rate @ idle it is identical. I guess I marked it good and got it back perfect. I could as you said bring it toward passenger side slightly to get that 7-9 range.

 

[buddy]

While the stuff is unplugged it should show up as current codes, until you plug it back in and have a key cylce. Then it should be a historic code.

What I suspect, since your CPS is the new thing, that it is causing this problem.

 

[Mudbath]

I will give it a try, hate to buy another one and if it isn't the problem then more wasted $$$$.

 

[Mudbath]

OK here is what the tests revealed

Historic had a code 34 to start with (they crop up randomly )

Unplugged the CPS was hard to start but ran once started (produced a DTC 19 Crankshaft Position reference Error as expected)

Plugged CPS in and unplugged the OS was really hard to start and would only run (rough) if I gave it throttle...let off throttle = engine die produced a DTC 17 High Resolution Circuit Fault and a DTC 18 Pump Cam Reference Pulse Error as expected

So using OS - CPS out of the equation engine runs

and using CPS - OS out of the equation engine stalls and runs rough

This is telling me that the CPS that I replaced during the HG job TO BE PROACTIVE :WTF::mad2: is flaky, It was a Standard Motors Products PC125, has anybody used these before?

What bugs me is when I unplug it it gives a Code 19 and in GMTDScan Tech snapshot there aren't any Crank Reference misses, so some of it is obviously working!

What are your thoughts 6.5 gurus?

 

[bk95td]

OK here is what the tests revealed

Historic had a code 34 to start with (they crop up randomly )

Unplugged the CPS was hard to start but ran once started (produced a DTC 19 Crankshaft Position reference Error as expected)

Plugged CPS in and unplugged the OS was really hard to start and would only run (rough) if I gave it throttle...let off throttle = engine die produced a DTC 17 High Resolution Circuit Fault and a DTC 18 Pump Cam Reference Pulse Error as expected

So using OS - CPS out of the equation engine runs

and using CPS - OS out of the equation engine stalls and runs rough

This is telling me that the CPS that I replaced during the HG job TO BE PROACTIVE :WTF::mad2: is flaky, It was a Standard Motors Products PC125, has anybody used these before?

What bugs me is when I unplug it it gives a Code 19 and in GMTDScan Tech snapshot there aren't any Crank Reference misses, so some of it is obviously working!

What are your thoughts 6.5 gurus?

I've got a Standard CPS in my 95 ld. I'm not shure if it's the same number as yours. It works fine. That doesn't mean your's is good though. I was hesitant to buy anything other than GM or AC Delco for that part. I bought it on a close out deal on rockauto for $20.

 

[Mudbath]

Rock Auto is where I picked that one up. $42.CAD for mine. That's why I don't want to rush out and buy another. I think I had actually selected AC Delco originally but changed to Standard so they could all ship from the same warehouse saving me $35 CAD. Should have gone with my gut and paid for the AC Delco unit. Now I will probably get one locally and pay the piper!