The TerraShuttle is getting a military Optimizer! Now what?

[Sentinelist]

Hey guys, long time no chat. I think my last thread on here was late last year, lamenting that my truck sounded like it had thrown a rod, and replacing the crank pulley didn't help much. I pretty much went into hibernation for the winter to plan. Then I sold our house in the suburbs, moved my family out the country, my first daughter was born, and... oh, it's summer! Busy as I've ever been.

But the truck will live to die another day. I bought a lightly-used military-pull Optimizer 6.5 from Ted's Trucks in AL off eBay (after verifying legitimacy from Leroy). It came out of a HMMWV with between 10-40k mi, can't verify specifically, but those were the parameters from the Army's last repower campaign. I haven't seen the longblock yet, but it's sitting in a diesel shop in the city and I'm making my plans to get it properly sorted. That's where you come in!

At Leroy's recommendation, I am having the precups knocked out this week and sending them off to Dennis' contact in MI for the diamond machining shortly. It'll be a few week turnaround period from what I understand. I'm also picking up a set of head gaskets from Leroy while I'm at it, but what else do I need? I briefly skimmed a similar thread from the beginning of the year below- do I need to do gapless rings? Studs? I don't want to go over the top as this is a recreational vehicle for me, but I do intend to frequently de-camper it and drive the truck to work, Tractor Supply, tow the occasional car trailer across the state, etc. At its greatest demand, it'd be hauling the camper and a trailer of gear into the Rockies or Ozarks. So it won't get all the bells and whistles, but I want to do this right. Reliability over performance. That being said, after all the expenses I've had this year, there's a reason I went the Ted's lightly-used route instead of the P400 route- I am working within a budget here. The ATT and FluidDamper are definitely swapping over, and aside from a new beefier alternator, I'm planning to swap over all the other ancillaries as well. Though I'm tempted to do the glow plugs and injectors if I must, as I'm not positive when they were last done.

What would you guys recommend?

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/a-military-rebuilt-6-5.43832/

 

[Burning oil]

2000 WP, clutch and Dmax fan. Or maybe I'll have my ElectroMag clutch by then? New oil pump is a good idea since the pan has to come off.

 

[btfarm]

Good to see you still keeping it.

 

[JayTheCPA]

I would do the gapless rings.

Unless the CR is lower than stock, not convinced that ARP studs are worth it. Cannot go wrong with them, but your call if the budget is that tight.

Now is also a good time to send out the injectors to get them checked and balanced to each other.

While you are basically working a resto project at this point, for overall durability consider:
> replacing the brake lines with pre-bent stainless.
> dropping the fuel tank to check integrity and do the other fuel line items (Leroy's MRFSU, sock removal, pre-LP filter, etc) if not already done.

 

[Sentinelist]

Thanks- I forgot to note it had the Dmax fan already, but I've been unsure about the clutch on it. The previous owner dragged the truck through SSDiesel at one point, where the DB2 was rebuilt at some point recently TMK. Glad to hear on the studs, and good idea on the injector cleaning. There was a guy I used for an old Porsche, but who would you guys recommend? The glow plugs are probably OK, no issues prior. Which oil pump should I go with? Hoping the pan clears. Good call on the brake lines and fuel tank work...

The two DuraLast platinum AGM batteries I have in the thing are flat and won't charge, so I'll be exchanging those ASAP to see if I can get the truck to crank up. Goal is to have the original 6.5 hobble to its own funeral about 10 mi. to the shop for the swap (sans-camper).

 

[WarWagon]

ARP head studs, like the OEM head bolts, go into water and need to be sealed. I recommend blue locktight over the revised ARP instructions because it works. Also tighten the ARP's into the block some so they don't turn when you install the nuts and break the locktight 'seal'. (I have used both red and blue in extreme conditions including pounding a 1/4 worm clamp into a piston and haven't blown a head gasket or had coolant in oil with ARP's.)

The bad side of ARP's is it is easier to completely pull the engine out if the head(s) have to come off for any reason. Otherwise the booster and AC stuff is in the way. (Or more as I never tried it.) I have had the heads off one 6.2 engine with ARP's 2 times. Once to see how things were doing after we totaled the truck it was in and the 2nd time after it found a missing worm clamp in the intake - new slugs, gapless rings, and different heads.)

ARP's got your back when the torque to yield head bolts let the HG's blow.

The gapless rings keep blowby to zero. This means higher compression for easier starting, better power, and less soot in the oil. You need to file fit them to the cylinders. It will pay for itself IF you can run the oil longer than 2500 miles - the HD change interval. Patch has low miles the past couple years I have samples for. Read details here including UOA: (Note I have completely ruined engine oil by going out of grade from 40 to 50 wt, TBN exhausted, and soot through the roof on non gapless ring 6.2 engines with 3000 miles on the oil.)

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/total-seal-gapless-rings.29135/

IMO with the camper load on the truck the extra ~$400.00 spent on rings and studs is money well spent and I have seen results from both.

You should replace the cam and other engine bearings while you are at it. Will can tell you about cam bearings.

Being as the engine is out of the way I highly recommend a better torque converter with the best lockup clutch you can get. I have eaten a few transmissions over the weak factory TC Clutch. A higher stall speed will help get the ATT into the power RPM band. It's $1100.00 or less depending on what kind you get. In depth Yank It:

http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/let-the-insanity-begin-time-to-yank-it.43647/

Last drop duraterm glow plugs in and test or rebuild the injectors. Injectors are cheap and can ruin the engine if they go bad. You are there and every time I have an engine out I spend the money to replace them or test them. China nozzles burn up in 30K miles. The good ones go ~100K (or more till they trash the engine).

 

[WarWagon]

Thanks- I forgot to note it had the Dmax fan already, but I've been unsure about the clutch on it. The previous owner dragged the truck through SSDiesel at one point, where the DB2 was rebuilt at some point recently TMK. Glad to hear on the studs, and good idea on the injector cleaning. There was a guy I used for an old Porsche, but who would you guys recommend? The glow plugs are probably OK, no issues prior. Which oil pump should I go with? Hoping the pan clears. Good call on the brake lines and fuel tank work...

The two DuraLast platinum AGM batteries I have in the thing are flat and won't charge, so I'll be exchanging those ASAP to see if I can get the truck to crank up. Goal is to have the original 6.5 hobble to its own funeral about 10 mi. to the shop for the swap (sans-camper).

If the fan clutch is over 5 years old replace it. For the Rockies the low temp KD fan clutch will handle anything you throw at it. Make sure the oil coolers come off and get the mat cleaned out behind them.
https://www.kennedydiesel.com/categoryresults3.cfm?Category=1&SubCategory=65&SubCategory2=10

 

[Burning oil]

I was going to say studs and rings to, but the budget.
New bolts will be needed at $50ish a set or $180 for studs.
I'll text you to see if you want to add on to the order

 

[WarWagon]

I was going to say studs and rings to, but the budget.
New bolts will be needed at $50ish a set or $180 for studs.
I'll text you to see if you want to add on to the order

You should have the gapless rings and ARP's an item you have to "manually" remove from all orders...

 

[Burning oil]

Right

 

[n8in8or]

After building mine, something that should be stressed is cam bearings. Mine was obviously low miles based on the way the other internals looked and the cam bearings were already showing copper!

Also I personally feel like the ARP studs are great peace-of-mind, but I do understand budgets.....my vote is if you can, then do go for the ARPs. The gapless rings are a nice option. Think of it this way: a blown head gasket due to using the junk factory bolts can leave you stranded, stock piston rings won't leave you stranded, so if you can afford one and not both, I'd go for the studs.

If you do go for the ARPs, it's VEEEEERRRRRRYYYY important to make sure they seal!! I installed mine last fall with just the normal Permatex Teflon goop and I got to replace my engine because I ended up with coolant in the oil. Do like War Wagon says and use Loctite. I used the blue on my threads and no problems. Do one side of the engine at a time: apply the Loctite, thread the studs into the block until they stop, install gasket and head, then do torque sequence. If you wait too long, the Loctite starts to set up and you may feel it let go while torqueing because it is only partially set. I had to re-do my torqueing because I waited too long. You may get away with it if you wait the full time and let it set up completely before torqueing, but I didn't test that, so I can't vouch for that.

Leroy and I (and others) made restrictors for our water pump bypass that is supposed to help keep the coolant flow more equal. This is a cheap and easy thing to do.

 

[Sentinelist]

Lots of good thoughts, more are welcome. I'm taking notes and am going to do some further searching on here tonight.

The main concern with all these details is, wonderful, but how am I going to get my mechanic at the shop here locally to be sure of all of this? Or would he even follow such directions anyway? It's not feasible at this time to have him swap the motors and then tow it to me to finish- no time this year. Too many other priorities on my plate now with the family and new land to manage.

 

[Will L.]

Cam bearings in an optimizer are GM bearings and suck. No idea who makes them for GM. This is 70,000 miles ish with proper oil changes.


Yes that was an optimizer can. The rust is from sitting, note center (#3) position.

If you go through the details and write everything down, he should follow the directions. Explain to him the knowledge base that is here, that were not just some whack jobs. If he has a different opinion on how some of it should be done have him post it up here and why.

I would hand a printed copy, and email him to cover bases incase he ignores instructions and there is a problem.

 

[NVW]

Will, did any antifreeze get in the oil? Mine had 250k miles and were like new.

 

[Will L.]

None. The main and rod bearings had wear, so I swapped them also but could have reused them if I had to.

Do you know what cam bearingsyou had?

My oil pressure had fallen only by 5 psi when hot only. I really only knew about it because I was drilling it the block for the oil passages for the center mount Gm6 turbo- the cam has to come out for that.

Anyways, put in all new bearings while your there.cam, main and rods. I wish I knew which brand to recommend, but idk.

Head bolt cost vs arp studs is a gamble of if you have to pull the heads 1 time then arp is cheaper. Definitely felpro head gaskets. Gapless rings is your budget. I would do new timing chain, old gears. New rocker buttons.

 

[NVW]

I have no idea on bearing brand, they are originals from a 95, 141 block.

I was going to replace them but no one in town had a cam bearing installation tool, then a heavy duty mech. friend of mine said he never replaces them? The bad block made it a mute choice in the end.

 

[JayTheCPA]

The main concern with all these details is, wonderful, but how am I going to get my mechanic at the shop here locally to be sure of all of this? Or would he even follow such directions anyway?

Best thing to do is prepare each stage of work on your own and when the mechanic gets to each stage, make a personal visit to review the upcoming items and what was just done.

I do this with my local shop as, while the it is run by a master mechanic whom is a great help, they love that I am their only customer whom does homework ahead of time and gives them pictures and URL's of what I expect. When the shop finds a 'stumper', I get a call and I usually find the answer her on TTS. We all have learned a lot from each other and I occasionally get a request for input when one of their other 6.5 customers wants something done.

 

[schiker]

It is sometimes hard to build trust with a shop. I guess the best way is talk to them and let them see your mods and explain your history with the truck and engine.

Pictures will get there attention better than writing or forum links at first. Some people have not learned the wealth of knowledge of a good forum. Then too some have probably been burned by google mechanics.

They should be able to tell you know what your talking about and it'll go smoother as it goes. If not try a different shop next time.

 

[btfarm]

On those rare occasions that someone else is doing work on one of my pieces of equipment I will have a technical conversation with them about it first. If they don't want to hear and understand what I have to say I go elsewhere. If they seem to know less than me about it, I make my decision on their willingness and enthusiasm to learn whether I walk or not.

 

[Sentinelist]

Good tips. I wasn't able to get my list together last night but will this weekend. I'll ping back here to roundtable as that comes together and will call the shop on Monday to try and get a plan together.