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The military takeout NAVISTARS and $$$$ to rebuild them

F

FellowTraveler

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As I cruise the web I see everyone rebuild the low mileage military takeouts 6.5 NAVISTARS however the money spent seems to be a bit sketchy and suspect the extra $$$$ for a new P400 is a better choice.

The question of total seal rings in any 6.5td needs to answered as I see in one video of a P400 w/total seal rings the oil in the centrifuge on a new long block being black from soot.

Those of you who did the P400 what are your thoughts on the upgrade, worth the coin or disappointed with them after break-in?
 
I'm one person that has both... Built the GEP 2 years ago, and have a p400 apart now... there is a difference in the p400, other than the known things like the bottom end, the heads are also different, valve seats under both valves, much much cleaner castings & even runners with no flash anywhere just to name a few differences.. different rods & pistons, crank etc....

Not the same as a GEP on the inside....

Yes, the p400 is more motor than the GEP me thinks....
 
I have 30K on the Total Seal Gapless rings and it's just now starting to turn the oil black when changed. Prior to this the oil allowed me to read the dipstick marks under the oil on it. UOA comes back with soot = 0 vs. non-gapless soot causing 40 wt to turn into 50 wt. Of course I went cheap with a GM cast 6.2 that has known cracks in the mains for the last 30K as well.

Choose your engine and if the coin is worth it to you in the ride, but, the Gapless rings should be the 1st thing on the list with everything else being 'optional'. Although I personally wouldn't spend the money on a P400 if I was given one I would put Total Seal gapless rings in it before use. On a budget I would send a ring set to Total Seal to be made gapless.
 
I think that has to be my video. Keep in mind that centrifuge cleaning was on an engine with less than 5000 miles so the rings may not have seated yet. I run synthetic so understand it may take longer to do so.
 
Burning oil said:
I think that has to be my video. Keep in mind that centrifuge cleaning was on an engine with less than 5000 miles so the rings may not have seated yet. I run synthetic so understand it may take longer to do so.
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Got it, let's see later how the oil looks any soot removed by centrifuge is less soot in the oil for sure.

Once I get past recovery after my medical emergency I'll start my mods again.
 
Here's my take on it. A P400 is of course the best way to go about an upgrade, that is if you can afford it. I tracked all of my costs on my Optimizer build. Here is what it cost me just to freshen the used Optimizer I bought:

Materials $999.86
Machine Shop $212

So it's just over $1200 to bring a used Optimizer back up to snuff. Of course a typical build would cost more than that because there are always the "well, while I'm in here.....costs". I racked up another $745.53 in those costs. Some of that was the new high flow water pump, radiator hoses, Fluidamper, etc, etc. that are just good ideas to do while it's out.

All told, what I had into mine including the $900 purchase price for the used engine (which I got lucky finding) was $2857.39. That is much cheaper than a P400 BUT, I also don't have a P400 now either. And it sure would have been easier to pull the old engine and plunk the new engine in its place. If I had to buy an engine from Ted's and do the same stuff then it would have been another $2300....which gets it closer to P400 or at least a new Optimizer territory.

I also had some parts bought already that I was able to swap over to the new engine like studs, roller rockers and marine injectors so I ended up with more engine than what the costs above would pay for.

Oh and then there are other costs that I haven't included. I went through a crap-ton of brake parts cleaner to clean parts. Paint for the exterior. Great Stuff gasket maker to keep the fluids in. So it all adds up and sure makes it a more expensive venture in the end than it looks like on paper in the beginning.

It all depends what you want and what you have the budget for....especially the latter. I hope one day to have a P400, but I'm going to milk my Optimizer for all it's worth in the meantime and see what it will put up with.
 
Am happy with the P-400 despite running into a few bumps. (Don't ask as I am not ready to tell ;) ) Overall, the P-400 is more quiet than the 506 block and its sweet spot is around 1,800 RPM's with the 4" exhaust and FTE resonator.

One thing to remember is that with the P-400, it also *must* come with the custom oil pan (Yes, even for a C truck) which will replace the one that comes from AMG. Speaking of pan, I am about to go on my 3'rd pan. Recommend getting one that looks like it was plasma welded (like Leroy's) as I had issues with ones that looked like they were stick welded.

Were I to do it over again, I'd get all upgrades (IP gears, Fluidampr, etc) installed *prior* to delivery as doing these things either on your own or by a local shop does cause issues with the warrantee even when the vendor states this is not a factor. (Again, don't ask ;) )

Expect to do frequent oil changes until the motor fully breaks in. So far I am on my 5'th oil change in 10K miles as UOA continues to show high levels of metal; also, AMG feels the levels are normal given the mileage. Plan is to continue changing the oil and (at least the primary) filter no later than 3,500 miles until UOA supports a migration over to synthetic and pushing out the drain interval to at least 5K miles.
 
JayTheCPA said:
Am happy with the P-400 despite running into a few bumps. (Don't ask as I am not ready to tell ;) ) Overall, the P-400 is more quiet than the 506 block and its sweet spot is around 1,800 RPM's with the 4" exhaust and FTE resonator.

One thing to remember is that with the P-400, it also *must* come with the custom oil pan (Yes, even for a C truck) which will replace the one that comes from AMG. Speaking of pan, I am about to go on my 3'rd pan. Recommend getting one that looks like it was plasma welded (like Leroy's) as I had issues with ones that looked like they were stick welded.

Were I to do it over again, I'd get all upgrades (IP gears, Fluidampr, etc) installed *prior* to delivery as doing these things either on your own or by a local shop does cause issues with the warrantee even when the vendor states this is not a factor. (Again, don't ask ;) )

Expect to do frequent oil changes until the motor fully breaks in. So far I am on my 5'th oil change in 10K miles as UOA continues to show high levels of metal; also, AMG feels the levels are normal given the mileage. Plan is to continue changing the oil and (at least the primary) filter no later than 3,500 miles until UOA supports a migration over to synthetic and pushing out the drain interval to at least 5K miles.
Click to expand...
Interesting that it is quieter. That is cool feedback to hear about.

Sorry you're having issues...I hope it was worth it in the end.
 
JayTheCPA said:
Am happy with the P-400 despite running into a few bumps. (Don't ask as I am not ready to tell ;) ) Overall, the P-400 is more quiet than the 506 block and its sweet spot is around 1,800 RPM's with the 4" exhaust and FTE resonator.

One thing to remember is that with the P-400, it also *must* come with the custom oil pan (Yes, even for a C truck) which will replace the one that comes from AMG. Speaking of pan, I am about to go on my 3'rd pan. Recommend getting one that looks like it was plasma welded (like Leroy's) as I had issues with ones that looked like they were stick welded.

Were I to do it over again, I'd get all upgrades (IP gears, Fluidampr, etc) installed *prior* to delivery as doing these things either on your own or by a local shop does cause issues with the warrantee even when the vendor states this is not a factor. (Again, don't ask ;) )

Expect to do frequent oil changes until the motor fully breaks in. So far I am on my 5'th oil change in 10K miles as UOA continues to show high levels of metal; also, AMG feels the levels are normal given the mileage. Plan is to continue changing the oil and (at least the primary) filter no later than 3,500 miles until UOA supports a migration over to synthetic and pushing out the drain interval to at least 5K miles.
Click to expand...

Stick welded leaked or was there other damage too?
 
On pan #1, it was definitely a leak at a weld joint (pan to the flange that attached to the girdle).

Do not know about pan #2 yet, but there is a leak adjacent the oil filter housing and I will need to drop the driveshaft to get at it to see what is going on. Even if pan #2 is Ok, it is coming off anyway and am putting Leroy's pan on.
 
JayTheCPA said:
On pan #1, it was definitely a leak at a weld joint (pan to the flange that attached to the girdle).

Do not know about pan #2 yet, but there is a leak adjacent the oil filter housing and I will need to drop the driveshaft to get at it to see what is going on. Even if pan #2 is Ok, it is coming off anyway and am putting Leroy's pan on.
Click to expand...
Man what a PITA that is, good luck there!
I'm in the planning stages of a re-power, considering full mechanical fuel system and stand alone trans controller just not sure what diesel to use yet.
 
JayTheCPA said:
On pan #1, it was definitely a leak at a weld joint (pan to the flange that attached to the girdle).

Do not know about pan #2 yet, but there is a leak adjacent the oil filter housing and I will need to drop the driveshaft to get at it to see what is going on. Even if pan #2 is Ok, it is coming off anyway and am putting Leroy's pan on.
Click to expand...
Do you have the pan already? If not give about a 4 week lead time.
 
JayTheCPA said:
Here is pan #3; does this look familiar? :D

View attachment 46596

And by the way, pan #2 was *not* yours (it was from the same source as pan #1 replaced under warrantee) ;)
Click to expand...
Man that is a seriously beefy pan!

I don't know what surprises me more, that there's more than one place to buy a P400 pan or that someone could screw it up that bad. I'm sorry to hear you've had that much trouble, that would be seriously infuriating, that would not be a simple fix.
 
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