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Substandard products and workmanship

3bals

3bals

Retired Firefighter
Messages
428
Reaction score
297
Location
Minnesota
We all have had some bad luck with substandard parts and/or hired labor. Some of us more than others. That’s why we (I) try to do as much as we (I) can ourselves, including R&D at great cost in time, money and frustration.


Some of us like to give the supplier of substandard products and workmanship a chance to correct the issue. Some of us even prefer to learn for ourselves. Most of us like to hear other people’s opinion too, whether or not we act on those opinions. That’s why we (I) like to read those thoughts and ideas on these forums and write in on occasions about our experiences, good or bad.


As far as substandard products and workmanship, my P400 header exhaust leak comes to mind, as it has been brought up in a recent thread. In conversations with the supplier not the manufacturer, it was decided to send them back to be repaired or replaced at no cost to me, except shipping one way and the labor to remove and replace them.


Here is the email I received from Mitch because Matt has been out with a serious medical condition (possibly one of the reasons for not being in business anymore?):

“Jody, we believe we have found the problem. Over the years the cylinder heads have been produce by different foundries and each time there are slight changes in casting and machining. Why I wanted the picture was to see which heads you have. Basically what is going on is the area that is machined for the exhaust manifold to seal too is smaller and the flange of the exhaust manifold is not quite sealing because of interference with parts of the casting mold seam (where the two halves of the mold come together). So when you used silicon or a gasket it would seal at first and then blow out as the bolts worked loose from the heating and cooling cycles. The fab shop is going to make sure that you have the clearance that you need.”


Now that they have been reinstalled but being late in the RV season here in the frigid north (-33F yesterday morning) I really didn’t get a chance to test them out. Although, I did drive it some around town some. I had the oil changed, fuel topped off and the LP tank filled before parking it for the winter. I did leave the doghouse cover off during these short drives to watch and listen for exhaust leaks. It was hard to see if the headers were leaking at the heads because of all the exhaust coming from the collector connections. (see pic)
collector leak.jpg

Hopefully it will warm up some so I can get in there and see what needs to be done to remedy the issue. My original thought was to simply tighten the clamps, but I’m not sure if I would be able to tighten them enough to stop the leaks without breaking them. So, plan “B” came to mind. What if I ordered out some Remflex collector gaskets the right inside diameter, then trim the outside to fit inside of the clamp? Then, hopefully I’ll be able to see any leaks. The true test will be to drive for a couple hundred miles hard like I normally do. But that will have to wait for warmer weather. This whole project has been a giant frustration, with substandard parts and workmanship (which I’ve written about on here in various threads), but I just keep going forward and hopefully someday it will all come together.


Of course this is only one of my 6.5 projects. My K3500 dually isn’t so much a “project” but it is something to maintain and I could write another book on the substandard parts and workmanship that I’ve had with it. And, of course there is the substandard products and workmanship that goes with my house too.


All my life I’ve tried to do most things myself, learning the hard way. As I get older and more physically challenged, I’ve been trying to hire more things done with limited success. I used to have buddy/friend/right hand man that would come over to help whenever I needed, but he passed away last Nov after a brief illness. Now I have to rely on hiring more done, which I’m learning is hard to find, first somebody willing to do the work and second to do a good job. It seems this is a common thing these days.


So keep sharing your ideas, thoughts and experiences on here so we can all learn more, even if it ends up being the hard way.
 
Your adventure is one of the reasons I stuck with a 5th wheel rather than a motor home. The TV truck gives me enough trouble as it is. Engine swapped 2x, clutch 2x, and just demanded the HPCR injectors be replaced at the cost of a complete good running 6.5 truck.

New Parts don't mean Good Parts is just too damn common. I have re-done way too much work over junk the parts store sells. Don't get me started on Power Steering pumps. We get to swap half shafts again because the boots gave it up...
 
Like Jody, did not want to muck-up the other thread with this topic.


Here is my 'Pulp Fiction' version of events:
- AGM stepped in and worked with me to make sure things were good.
- Nobody knows what the source of my reportable issue was, so I am not going to go any further in terms of description or detail as it could have happened at any time the motor was touched from when it was originally assembled, to the time that the vendor installed a customized oil pan, to the time I had timing gears installed on my end.


What threw me over the edge with the vendor was four items:
- Outright refusal to open a damage claim against *their* shipper when the motor was picked-up *at their request* by *their* carrier at my end and damaged in transit back to the vendor for inspection. That cost *me* parts (Yes, plural) and labor. Don't ask how a motor can get damaged in transit. But I know it did just like Jody's tranny did.

- Refusal to admit that my original complaint was with their failed customized part. Instead they dug-in and left the entry point in their after action report as a second issue we discovered *after* their customized oil pan failed and was removed for inspection. *Big* difference. Had their customized part not failed, it begged the question whether I would have found the second issue or dismissed the second issue as part of the break-in cycle.

- Refusal to admit that they were unable to rule themselves out of culpability with what was observed when the failed customized oil pan was removed and the second issue was discovered. Instead they dug-in and started to finger-point at any other possible source with the heaviest focus on my end despite the fact that they worked on the engine themselves *and* provided a faulty customized product. Naturally, they held themselves and the manufacturer innocent even though they conceded that both of them touched / installed parts on the motor and could have introduced the second issue. I can safely state that the mechanic on my end was very angry and ready to testify if I wanted to go that far. In fact, my mechanic is till peeved about it several years later.

- Refused to relay to AGM that something was noticed and the vendor was unable to isolate a source. Especially when the observation continued *after* the vendor completely disassembled the motor, took corrective actions, reassembled the motor, and returned the motor. The reason we noticed the issue continued was that we had to pull the 'fixed' customized oil pan after about 15 minutes of idle time as it leaked worse than prior to the 'fix'. When I contacted the vendor that we likely had a reportable item that should go back to the manufacturer, the vendor told me that it would not happen.


The last item was what gave me the absolute right to go straight to AGM. At first AGM was blunt and stated that as a corporate policy they pushed all resale issues back to the vendor to resolve, but I had laid out my case that they were held blind to something that they should at least had known about. Given that my request for a conversation was solely focused on report of a possible issue for use as a data point, desire to assure the motor was good, and had no hint about griping about the vendor's customer service, AGM decided to work with me. During the conversation, I laid out all the facts, relayed E-mail conversations, and left it that AGM agreed the issue was reportable. Even with stating the facts, some of the back-and-forth with the vendor were a part of them, so AGM was able to see the overall picture and draw their own conclusion. From that point, I have no idea (or interest) how the conversation with AGM and the vendor went. I do know that AGM stayed in touch with me to make sure things were good.



So, even in Jody's descriptions about the manifolds, it appears the vendor continued not see their role when it came to defects. Specifically, Yes, we now know that the block came from a limited number of different foundries over time. *BUT*, if the vendor did not know about this, then it certainly should have when customized parts started to fail. And to continually blame an external influence rather than not embrace the issue, take ownership, and correct for it simply misses the mark on all levels.


To start bringing the tale full circle . . .
- After all actions with the new install were complete, the re-power cost at least twice as much as it should have as there were 2 extra motor pulls, I lost count of how many times the front axle came off due to messing around with faulty customized oil pans, I got handed a sizeable bill to fix the motor by the vendor even though the vendor could not rule-out itself or the manufacturer as a possible source of the second issue (bonus was that I was retroactively charged for the freight which damaged the motor), and I had to replace the valve covers after the motor was returned as the installation by the vendor leaked. The quicker I could get away from the vendor, the better.

- Rather than fight with the vendor, (as noted) I legitimately gave notice to the manufacturer about a reportable item which sent the fight to the vendor and I stepped back.

- Along the way, I gave a heads-up to Jody when I noticed parallel experiences and gave Chris inputs on how to save legal costs by legitimately putting tax dollars to work along with sending facts to the right places.


The reason I did not fight with the vendor or get into a social medial brawl was too many things going on in life for me to get bogged down in messing with somebody who did-me-wrong. There was a time when I went for vindication. Now I focus on positive outcomes and simply abandon the trash rather than force anybody to 'see-the-light'. Once I start seeing where somebody does not want to get the Gospel, I find a polite way to cut-lose and move forward on my own. Have gone through both sides of litigation from a position of advantage, know that litigation is a *huge* consumption of time, and the only real winners are the paid people in the room (hint: *not* the plaintiff or defendant ;) ).

So, a significant reason I do not trash-talk vendors, especially on the Internet where things take new lives, is that I have no interest in somebody coming back at me even when I am in the winning position. I will make public statements of facts and privately reach out to others when I see a pattern of undesirable behaviors though :)



Roll forward a few years and that vendor is currently offline. Karma served. Truly sad.
 
I guess I'll go into some depth on my dealing with the said vendor as I too have kept it off the internet up until now.

About 2 yrs ago some of you will remember I ruined a new set of P400 heads. I contacted Leroy at the time and he was unable to provide them due to a problem at the factory. I contacted said vendor and talked to Mitch, I ordered a set of P400 heads, the order was placed verbally & by email, Mitch also replied by email with the cost and product (P400 heads) ordered.

After several emails between us a few weeks after I received 2 boxes containing GM heads with "T" cups.. I promptly got Mitch on the phone, I asked him if he remembered what heads I had ordered, he said "sure, you ordered P400 heads", I replied then why did I get old stock GM heads??? Mitch replied that their is no difference between any of the heads and I got the only head sold... when I told him I had a P400 on the stand and had the set that came on the P400 on my desk beside the 2 he sent he insisted the P400 didn't have a different head and I was lying because I didn't want the heads...

I sent him pics of the p400 head because he eventually had never seen one even tho they were supposed to sell & work on them.. I sent the GM heads back to him because that wasn't what I had ordered, Mitch charged me a 20% restocking fee .

After that Mitch would not answer my calls or messages, this went on for a couple of weeks. During this time I emailed Jay a couple of times because I knew he was going through his ordeal with them also. I then contacted The MI state attorney general's office and filled a formal complaint, sent all emails we had exchanged etc. I also contacted AMG and filled a formal complaint and when AMG contacted me by phone I accused the vendor of fraud, and after AMG reviewed all the emails and listened to what I had to say they agreed with me. The MI state attorney's office also contacted me by phone and we went through near the same conversation as with AMG.

I'm not quite as easy going as Jay is, I pushed as hard as I could, the vendor lied plain and simple and when they found out the person on the other end of the phone knew what he was talking about and called their bluff they broke all ties and refused to answer any calls.

Yes legal cost would have been a loss on my part but when I get shafted like that vendor did I will fight back at a loss every time just for the principal of it..

I haven't sold anyone on this site anything, BUT I do sell to the local public, I treat others the way I want to be treated and if I ever were to treat someone the way I got treated by this vendor I would expect them to come after me the same way, it's a shame how some do when they think the buyer doesn't know any better...
 
I'm pretty sure I know which vendor you're all talking about based on names and such. I never bought a complete engine from them but I did buy a fair amount of parts from them and never had an issues. Course I inspected and installed all the parts myself.

Now having said that I can say that if I had had the problems you guys had. I probably would of loaded the parts into my other truck and driven to their shop. Where I would have cause the biggest scene I could of. I would taken my level of being an asshole to whole new heights. These engines are way too expensive to buy a new version of to end up being dicked around like that.

You guys definitely handled the issues with much more grace then I would have.
 
My dealings with said vendor back in 2006 weren't any better unfortunately. A friend had his block crack on his 98 suburban so he bought an 18:1 optimizer from Matt & I installed it along with an intercooler and some other mods. That was may of 2006. In September of 06, my head gaskets started leaking so I decided to go with the 18:1 optimizer as well. Matt tried to charge me $500 more than he charged my friend 4 months earlier. His wife pulled some illegal shenanigans to get the total down that I didn't notice til much later. I get the engine to my shop & uncrate it & find the Navistar logo in the valley had been ground off with a grinder. I took it back and he traded for another engine. He wouldn't give me a reason why the first engine was like that. That's when I started really getting uneasy about dealing with him. I no more than finished my install and my friends truck came back leaking oil pretty bad from the oil pan. I talked to Matt and after some haggling he told me to fix it & he'd pay for it. I did fix it & as I recall it was about 6 months before I got paid for it. He contacted both my friend & I about some business ventures in the years following that but he always wanted us to pay for everything. I also never said anything on the forums about them because they had a good rep in the 6.5 community and people seemed happy with them. As my shop is only about 5 miles from his, I got to see the operation in person. It certainly wasn't what people on the forums thought it was.
 
Jeez, Jody @3bals , now I feel kinda responsible for this fiasco by going along with you as co-driver to pick up the motorhome in Reno and driving it back. Maybe shoulda just dropped a D-max/Allison combo in it when the rocker failed here in Lincoln six years ago and called it good?
 
Something I noticed while trying to figure out if they were still in business. Matt is listed as president. Owner is a completely different name.
 
I'm aware of that, but Matt was the owner at one time. He tried to sell the place to me 10 years ago. I'm assuming he did eventually find a buyer. The name listed as owner now is European.
 
3/5 of the last names in the US are European, from Martinelli to Martinez to Schmidt to Kowalski to Johanson to Smith and everything in between.
 
Don't EVEN get me started on International Diesel (and their subsequent legal reincarnations) and the bullshit THEY have pulled over the years!
 
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