Starter vs. Injectors

[treegump]

Well - first things - I'm purchasing a used starter (lifetime warranty from autozone) and used injectors from Ted Reminder, but I wanted to check with you guys too.

Problem: ______Cranks several times before starting (see attached video (sound only - my garage isn't very well lit) and attached pics of starter)


Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:

- Year: _96_
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500) __K2500__
- Automatic or Standard __Standard_
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) __164000__-bought the truck at 155k
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) _DIY TM, Glow Plug override, High Idle, oil cooler changed, banks exhaust _
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? _F_
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) __30* F (but was happening when I bought the truck and it was 80*F__
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) ___? - BP or Shell - stopped going to Flying J______
- What fuel additives are you using? __Put 2 cycle (40:1) in my last tank and have put Power Service in it and Lucas before that_
- Where are you located? __Northwest Indiana__

General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter _less than 4k miles ago__
- Fuel filter __same time as air filter__
- CDR Valve? __less than 10k miles ago__
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at __unknown___
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at __4.9k miles ago__
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at __12+ volts after engine is ran for a while - 12 volts when truck is cold = battery charge is good__
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): __everything has been done___________
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? ___less than 10k_ What type? _60g____________
- Injectors - last changed at __unknown_____________


History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? ___always has happened___________
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? ____see above answer_________
- Has this problem ever happened before? ________yes - always_______________
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. __a previous owner did crappy own electrical repairs/additions__
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) _N_- I asked autozone if they could and they said no, they couldn't__ And? ________

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Diagnostics:

1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? _Yes________
1b] Does the engine crank over? ___Yes_____
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? __Yes_______
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? __Yes______
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? ___isn't that the same as the glow plug light?______
1f] Does your glow plug light come on? __Yes - 8 sec and then blinks on and off about 4 times on cold days_______ For how long? _________
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? __not while cranking - only when it first fires - a large greyish cloud (could be black - haven't seen it leaving the tip)______
1h] Does the Service Engine Light Glow during Start/bulb check? ___nope_____

2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? ___yes_________
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? ___yes______
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? ___haven't done - but at the fuel filter there is________
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? ___haven't checked yet______
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? ___no________

3] PMD / IP Issues (everything unknown)
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) ___um...not sure - but i'd have to guess on intake___
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? _________
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness. _________
3d] PMD Make: ___________
3e] PMD Age: _____________

4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? ____no________
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) __no - but it has "hiccupped" a couple of times but not often enough to track down a problem or source____
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? __never tried it_______
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? ____no_____
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? __no_______
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? ___not sure - i've never had it on CC when its done it________
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power? _________
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? _its so quick and sporatic i haven't noticed__

5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? __hm...not sure_____
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? _no______
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? ____not that i've noticed______
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? __at first fire - but not after that_______
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? _____not anymore _____

6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges (boost, EGT) ? __boost & egt_________
6b] Maximum boost under load? __so far - 9.5__________
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? _____no_________
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? ____about an inch larger than stock after muffler - bank's exhaust____________
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum (OEM)? ______diy mechanical________

7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? ___huh...not sure (how do I check)_________
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? ___obviously no - was going to order 2 from kennedy - wanted to know if 180 or 190 and how to find spring loaded bypass vlv?______
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? ___no - on my list to do_(new oil cooler and lines)________
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? __no______
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? __no-but checked yesterday and the top 1/16" was frozen in the overflow_______
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? _no-engine needle goes beyond half way in normal driving conditions__________

List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. Pictures of starter included and sound for me starting this morning. As well as pictures of my engine - but can take additional top/side pics at lunch today. There is coolant on top of block on passenger side - but I think its from the hose connection. There is also coolant on the driver's side where the cord ties into the motor - but there is a short there as well, so if the heater heats the coolant, then i plan on just sealing that up (if the starter/injectors fix the problem). The pics might not due justice - but the connections to the starter look just as bad as the starter.

 

[treegump]

the video (of just sound cause my garage lighting sucks) i was speaking of (and this is 30+ sec of glow plug - but its like this with 8+ sec of glow plug):

 

[JMJNet]

Sounds fine to me? w cold weather.

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

Cranking a little slow....Other than that, your're OK.

 

[treegump]

but this is how it cranks in warm weather too

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

Whats the condition of your starter/batts/wiring?

Everything needs to be in proper working order on these rigs.....Don't forget grounds.

 

[treegump]

unsure of starter - I thought the previous owner said he changed it, my buddy (who was with me) said he thought the previous owner said its always started so he never changed it - but either way - I don't know. It looks like a pain to remove - so I've ordered a used one (as I said in the first paragraph) and will test it and install it. Everything else seems to be in good order.

 

[JMJNet]

Those sounds more like weak battery or bad cables/connectors. As somebody mention here, the cables may look good on the outside but bad on the inside.

On the starter, make sure the bracket on it is still on. May be it is on its way out but it is still starting.

 

[treegump]

Those sounds more like weak battery or bad cables/connectors. As somebody mention here, the cables may look good on the outside but bad on the inside.

On the starter, make sure the bracket on it is still on. May be it is on its way out but it is still starting.

The batteries are fine from every test i've given them. There is no resistance from battery to body or battery to ground post on motor. And I don't know what the bracket looks lie on the starter, as I'm new to the 6.5 and haven't found what one looks like.

 

[JMJNet]

You have to go down there.

Starter is hold by two long bolts and a bracket with stud goes through it.
It is not specific for diesel, apparently, GM have the same design for all trucks around this body model, so it is also for gasser.

The bracket pics are here somewhere, it is actually on the back of the starter but it is towards the front of the truck. It is not easy to take out or installed so a lot of people did not put it back after changing the starter hence the starter are moving and break.

 

[treegump]

You have to go down there.

Starter is hold by two long bolts and a bracket with stud goes through it.
It is not specific for diesel, apparently, GM have the same design for all trucks around this body model, so it is also for gasser.

The bracket pics are here somewhere, it is actually on the back of the starter but it is towards the front of the truck. It is not easy to take out or installed so a lot of people did not put it back after changing the starter hence the starter are moving and break.

well, as with all my other trucks, i'd have to guess that my starter is original and so it probably still has a bracket.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Save yourself the time, money and aggravation and DON'T buy an AUTOZONE starter. I went through one every 3 months on my 6.5, I believe 7 in total in the 2 years I drove it. You can buy a POWERMASTER from ADVANCE or SUMMIT for about the same price and get a better starter than the stock unit. 5 of my AZ starters would begin to drag and crank slower and slower, one lost a solonoid, and another one just quit all together. All you get from AUTOZONE is a warranty anymore as the quality just isn't there anymore.

 

[treegump]

Save yourself the time, money and aggravation and DON'T buy an AUTOZONE starter. I went through one every 3 months on my 6.5, I believe 7 in total in the 2 years I drove it. You can buy a POWERMASTER from ADVANCE or SUMMIT for about the same price and get a better starter than the stock unit. 5 of my AZ starters would begin to drag and crank slower and slower, one lost a solonoid, and another one just quit all together. All you get from AUTOZONE is a warranty anymore as the quality just isn't there anymore.

well - its a little too late As I said in the first post, I just bought the autozone starter from Ted Reminder, but he's including a copy of the receipt, so it'll have to get me by till I can afford a real starter. I doubt they'll return for cash.

 

[Ted Reminder]

Save yourself the time, money and aggravation and DON'T buy an AUTOZONE starter. I went through one every 3 months on my 6.5, I believe 7 in total in the 2 years I drove it. You can buy a POWERMASTER from ADVANCE or SUMMIT for about the same price and get a better starter than the stock unit. 5 of my AZ starters would begin to drag and crank slower and slower, one lost a solonoid, and another one just quit all together. All you get from AUTOZONE is a warranty anymore as the quality just isn't there anymore.

I got my original AutoZone starter Oct 1 05, it lasted till July 11 09. It was still starting the engine but was getting slow when AutoZone replaced it. Almost 4 years, I figure, was pretty good. I used my truck to haul expedited freight and used the starter quite a lot. Lots of stops and starts every day. Probably had way over 150,000 miles on the original AutoZone starter. You must have gotten their cheapest reman starter if you ate them up like that, or there were other issues. The starter Forrest is getting from me would cost $259.99 at AutoZone now. I'm letting it go for a hell of a lot less than that. If this starter is as good as my original AutoZone one was I don't think Forrest will need to worry for a long time, or go get a "real starter" for what? $500 or so?
Ted

 

[Pruittx2]

I'm gonna say, that it's sounds a little slow cranking also,, I replaced my starter last year with a NAPA lifetime unit. I Have matching 850CCA batteries that are a few years old, While I was replacing the starter,, I did go thru ALL of the connections from the Starter up to both batteries, Both side mound studs were replaced with bolts and nuts, to give a tighter connection, then Cleaned all connections REAL good. They were more dirty once I got into it, then it Seemed like they would be before I started. On the Pass side Pos cable,, there is a smaller Pos red wire that goes down to the starter, for me that one was corroded on the inside, and couldn't carry the load down to the starter, I had to cut it off by 2 inches to get to good non-internally corroded wire to get a good connection, and after that, Boy would that rascal crank!!! then the recent switch to Mobil 1 really made her crank fast!!

sorry so long winded,, but like the guys said,, ALL parts have to be in great order for longevity and reliability, Even if the grounds Look good,, pull them anyway and clean them up, just for your piece of mind, that way when the next issue arises,, and someone post,, DID You check the grounds,, You'll now that's not it!

Also, here a link to a thread with great pics of the area for the starter bracket: http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=17623&highlight=starter+bracket

 

[ak diesel driver]

I rebuilt my original starter somewhere around 180000 new brushes and opened up the seled bearings and repacked them still going strong at 220000 only about $30 for parts.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I bought the top of the line DURALAST GOLD from them for more than I want to remember. The last one was replaced before I parked it and a year and a half later from it just sitting it had failed again. Took it in and they tested it and it took out the power in there whole store as it shorted out there tester machine.

 

[treegump]

Ok - so i'll check the wire going from the battery to the starter - and also check to see if I have the bracket. Ted (thanks by the way for the reassurance on the part you're sending me) is including the bracket, just in case I don't have it.

Just curious - what's the best way to get this off? Is it just like any other vehicle? Lay on my back under the vehicle and unbolt it from underneath? Or is it any easier from the wheel well? (I really don't want to remove the 8 bolts that hold the fender in - but as TD reassured me - it came out quite nice when I changed my last 3 glow plugs. I'm probably going to need to remove the inner fender well to change the injectors, won't I?

Thanks again for all your input and help!!

 

[Pruittx2]

If you remove the fender liner,, you will be able to reach in and get the wires off, and the bracket loose. If you go under, and pull the starter bolts be sure to support the starter to undo the wires, the bracket to block bolt is a 10mm, I think starter side as well. I haven't done my injectors, but I'm told, you can do it with the turbo still on, and that I believe will be a top side job. I'd do the liner removal, and the starter and injectors on that side all in 1 shot if I was you.

 

[WarWagon]

The 6.2’s and likely these engines are hard on starters with high compression. The 454 starters of this era had a lot of trouble too.

Your replacement will help diagnose the problem. If it later dies try to get one of the aftermarket permanent magnet gear reduction starters out there.

Although they are a wear item some things can send them to the grave faster...

Weak batteries and bad connections go beyond slow cranking. This condition will “brownout” the starter motor with low voltage causing low RPM. This causes the windings to heat up more. (As more time is spent with one winding 'on' before it moves and the brushes turn it off and turn on the next winding.) A hot starter will weaken the brush springs as overheating takes the temper/spring-tension out of metal. (If the windings don’t melt first.)

Use of starting aids can damage the starter as well with violent kickbacks from the engine.

Bad bearings in the starter can cause parts to drag and the starter to loose power.

Bad glow plugs can ruin a starter from excessive cranking and resulting motor overheating.

Really 15 seconds and then give it up for a couple min! Otherwise you will know the bolts well for the starter.