Starter issues...

[silentkillzr]

So i get this truck, 5 mins later starter takes a shit. its a 6.5 TD. 1995 motor. The starter mount on the block broke off so the PO took a longer rod to the exhaust above because this chunk of the block broke off where the outer starter bolt mounts in. It worked sortof. I went to go re-'fix' this messed up way of mounting it and i cant get the starter to go back in the way it was, working. It just spins or grinds, i got the motor to turn over once, but this mount keeps allowing the starter to cock away from my flywheel. I do indeed have the bracket on the front of the starter to the block on also. I am almost out of answers. I'm debating what i should do about this, Take it to a shop and pay i have no idea how much they would charge or ???

If you guys could throw me some options or thoughts lemme know. Ill post pics tomorrow.

 

[ak diesel driver]

Depending on how bad the block is broke I've heard of guys using all thread and making a stud. There is no easy answer

 

[great white]

Im having a hard time picturing what you're describing.

Are you saying there's only one starter bolt in the block (inside bolt) and the PO has a piece of steel rod from the exhaust manifold to the outer starter bolt hole to keep it from rotating the entire starter around the inner bolt?

That sounds like one really "cocked up" system if that's it.

A forward starter bracket may help a bit, but you really need the bolts at the base of the starter to get the job done.

Is there anything left to the outer bolt hole in the block or is the piece cracked off entirely?

If there's still some of the hole left, AK has given you a good suggestion.

If it's completely gone, you're pretty much hooped....

A good welder may be able to do something for you, but you'de prob have to at least pull the engine and then there's the issue of getting the starter alignment correct to mesh with the gears on the flex plate.

Not to mention trying to weld and build up on a cast iron block. Doable, but very difficult to get it right. Highly doubtful it could be done "in situ".

Wish I could have given you better news.....

 

[bison]

We need pic's

 

[dieselfuelonly]

Same thing happened to the engine in a 1994 Suburban my buddy and I bought 2.5 years ago. Factory engine at 234k miles would not start and we went to go look at it when it was for sale. Bought it and after towing it home found both starter bolt holes broke out (w/ the outer hole the worse of the two) and helicoils installed in place to hold the starter up and that was about it. Wasn't worth jack for relying on starting the engine and just ground the flexplate when you tried to bump the ignition. We thought about a welder and repairing the block, but thought that it certainly wasn't going to be a "long-term" fix or worth the effort and paying the bill. Ended up buying a good, used longblock 6.5 w/ 120k miles and switched all the parts over from bad to good engine. The fact of not using or reinstalling the front starter bracket to the starter/block mount during the last starter replacement is what made an early demise of the engine in that truck. Plus it just seems that it's a tender area on these blocks even going back to 80's 6.2 diesels.

 

[L98TPI]

The fact of not using or reinstalling the front starter bracket to the starter/block mount during the last starter replacement is what made an early demise of the engine in that truck. Plus it just seems that it's a tender area on these blocks even going back to 80's 6.2 diesels.

You got that right. GM put that brace on there for a reason. Going back to my long held premise that GM does not spend money it doesn't have to. The 6.2/6.5 is not the only engine with a starter brace. The 350 Olds has one and so does the 360 in my dad's (RIP) Wagoner. I have seen alternator brackets crack and transmission/transfer cases crack because someone in a hurry thought they could leave that pesky brace out. Sometimes the OEM engineers screw up but most of the time they get it right. I have welded the outside bolt hole up with a nickle rod and re-drilled/tapped but its a gamble if it will hold. if its not a hard to come by block bite the bullet and change it. you wont regret the effort it took later on. :agreed:

 

[WarWagon]

Pulling the engine out and replacing it isn't that bad. You can go used military surplus ~$1500 or new engine. Lots of upgrades you can do with the engine out. Keep that cost in mind when looking at block repairs.
Also look at and count the teeth on the flywheel as diesel 1982+ 6.2 and all 6.5 are the same but different from gas engines.

 

[great white]

Changing a short block because of a starter problem would drive me around the bend with anger...

 

[bison]

Changing a short block because of a starter problem would drive me around the bend with anger...

Me too!
That itty bitty afterthought tail bracket and the difficulty to get to that stupid little bolt is a fix i would be ashamed about if i was the General.

2 lbs of extra iron in that location or a horizontal 3 bolt flange mount like one finds on most industrial diesels would not have put GM in recievership IMO.

 

[silentkillzr]

This thing runs amazing, this is very unfortunate. Im talking to machine shops to see if someone can rig something up. It has 169k on the block and trans. 5spd manual.

Ill get some pics in sometime this week. Its nuts how it even worked at all. Yes by the way you are picturing it right, Inside bolt has been drilled and tapped for a 9/16 bolt. And the outside is stock thickness so like a 3/8 rod or whatever. its a 6" bolt going up to the exhaust, the problem with the deal is the block mount broke towards the front of the motor, so when the starter cranks it has so much torque that it pops the rod out of the hole, causing the teeth to completely miss the flywheel. So some crazy rocketry to get a bracket goin on the back side of the starter ( towards the front of the truck) to hold the beasty starter in place. If i have to get a new block im going to be pissed.

 

[great white]

It sounds to me like you're hooped.

Unless someone else has an off the wall repair for the cast iron.

About all I can think of is a buck shee style repair where you get someone to try welding a stud or insert into what's left of the outside bolt hole.

May hold, may not. Lots of different types of steel there and cast is a "b" to weld properly in the first place.

I don't see many other options...anyone else?

 

[bison]

Need pics to see exactly what can or cannot be done.
A stud is out of the question,there's no room for the starter to go straight up over the stud

 

[L98TPI]

Yea we need pics to make suggestions. Castiron, well blocks are closer to cast steel but any way. Cast iron can be welded with a hi nickle rod usually stick welded. Ideally the chunk in question needs to be pre heated to stave off the shrink cracking. Its hard to do these things without said chunk out of the frame for access and dissembley. Sooo at that point you might as well swap to a another block.

 

[great white]

Swapping a block is all well and good, provided you can find one that the reciprocating assembly is worth it and the casting isn't all cracked in the mains. Or the heads. Or the head bolt holes. Or the cylinders. Or he fire deck base. Or......well, you get the idea. Finding a serviceable used block is not exactly an easy feat with a 6.x engine. Like I've often said before, more yards I've been to either won't sell a used 6.5 or just yanks them when the come in to the yard and throw them on the scrap pile. They've all been burned with too many "come backs" on these "crackers".

Not to mention the cost and time involved in replacing the short block. Which will most likely be a long block assembly once the heads are pulled and the valve bridges are found to be cracked...

Boy would that ever p!ss me off.


I'm pretty sure I'd at least try to jury rig something before I had to go down that route...but that would also grind on my nerves until I could fix it properly.

I might even consider cutting my losses and turffing the old hack if I wasn't too deep into it...

 

[deejaaa]

i think the old hack that needs to be hacked is the one that sold the truck. i bought mine knowing the block was cracked,why i got it so cheap. not telling was deceiving.

 

[great white]

i think the old hack that needs to be hacked is the one that sold the truck. i bought mine knowing the block was cracked,why i got it so cheap. not telling was deceiving.

Unfortunately, there's more out there willing to "patch" it and unload it fast for a dishonest buck than fix it right or take an honest loss on it.

Integrity is a hard commodity to come by these days, that's why I tend to spend more for items from honest dependable sellers....

 

[btfarm]

I'd sure as hell try to figure out a way to fabricate a suitable replacement for the missing threaded sections of the block. Maybe that's a carefully crafted piece of steel that itself is bolted/welded into place but I would not give up without trying to meet the challenge.
Easy for me to say I know, but the gearhead in me says "I don't go down without a fight"...

 

[L98TPI]

Here are some close ups of the starter pad area and the starter, to spur conversation.





Not much there to bolt to. If you have one bolt that holds maybe a long bracket that goes from the one brace bolt hole to two or three of the oil pan rail bolts and to both bolts on the back of the starter might work.

 

[btfarm]

Might try heavy wall Keenserts Here
Looks to me like there is enough material left for them and they work very well in cast iron.

 

[L98TPI]

Woa...
I didn't mean to confuse anyone. But I am not the guy with the busted block. I just posted those pictures of a perfectly good (at least in the starter area) block as a illustration and in case the owner of the problem child couldn't get pictures at least he could use these to point out the trouble area. Sorry about that should have been clearer. :rolleyes5:

Those Keenserts are nice we used to use them on VW and Corvair blocks.