Renewable Diesel Fuel. Four (4) types of Diesel out there?

[WarWagon]

I ran across this "poor marketing" and was surprised there are other "not #2 Diesel" Diesel fuels out there. (These other flavors are available in California at the moment.) Mainly surprise that there are other Diesel fuels that are NOT Traditional FAME Biodiesel. As it is our #2 ULSD Diesel is spiked with Biodiesel now by law in some places and to replace lube lost in the sulfur removal process. Less than 5% is not required to even be labeled. Some new diesel pickups require/offer a better water separator to run up to 20% Biodiesel. My 2018 and some new RAM pickups max out at 5% Biodiesel or you become "your own warranty station".

Four (4) types of Diesel out there? #2 ULSD, FAME Biodiesel, Propel HPR, and R99?

I would love to hear from @Will L. esp. if these other "Not FAME Biodiesel" loves the water as much. Some people already tossed the 76 stuff in the freezer and got a wax brick.

The collective name for biodiesel, produced by esterification, is FAME and stands for Fatty Acid Mehtyl Ester. (The leftover meth is what gave me so much trouble with lift pumps and hoses. )

76 isn't saying clearly what they are selling. You could assume it's B99, but, it's not FAME Biodiesel.

Renewables are made from renewable resources –used cooking oils, fats, greases, vegetable oils, grains and sugars –that can be replenished in a short time period. Examples include ethanol, biodiesel and renewable diesel.

https://www.76.com/renewable-diesel

Renewable Fuels | Flex Fuel E85 | Diesel HPR - Propel Fuels

Propel connects consumers to better fuels. With Flex Fuel E85 and advanced diesel locations across California, Propel provides new fuel choices that are higher in performance, deliver better value and create healthier communities.

propelfuels.com

Neste Renewable Diesel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Will L.]

If it is California approved- chances are not running it is the best option.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

I plan on setting my truck to handle b100 (if I can find it) I have read a few research papers that claim it increases HP anywhere from 6-10%. So id like to try running it and see how it does. I really think biofuels are going to be a big part of diesel engines in the future so might as well be prepared.

 

[Will L.]

I plan on setting my truck to handle b100 (if I can find it) I have read a few research papers that claim it increases HP anywhere from 6-10%. So id like to try running it and see how it does. I really think biofuels are going to be a big part of diesel engines in the future so might as well be prepared.

Yes, but good and bad. You can swing the fuel for more power, but there is always a gain/loss balance. When we made fuel, both bio and plastics, we could simply choose what power/efficiency/ clean burn whatever we wanted.
Its like when guys make wmo fuel by cutting filtered oil with a percentage of gasoline. Want a hair more power, add a hair more gas. Adding cetane is really same thing in diesel. People buy expensive additives as cetane booster and if they just dump in a quart of gasoline they get same effect. It really is done that way at the tank farm (fuel mixing plants).

Bio is a wide term. What you get in Ohio is gonna be different than whats in Iowa or Colorado. And in an area where there is many competitors making it the differences will be within a few miles. So learning about the differences and building to suit for it is definitely a good idea. That’s why I am always saying sae30r9. I am sure folks here went out of their way to get it from that recommendation, yet are somewhere that it is 1-2 levels above what they need for fuel in their area. And if they never go on road trips - could be they wasted $10 more than needed- but it makes all the difference for folks running pure corn juice within a couple years.

I used to love the gm ffm. Simple, efficient, compact. Now, not so much. Not knowing the alcohols or how much water is in the fuel in suspension is a serious issue. Back when we had pure petroleum fuel the water blocking ability of the ffm was ok and if/when the light came on you could drain and drive and never think twice. But with water in suspension the water can no longer make the electrical conduction like it should. It is spread out among all the fuel instead of separating and getting trapped. Now all the water is getting to the ip and injectors. So yeah, amazing water separation is important.

There is always outside contamination possible (dirt in the filling stations tank). Petroleum fuel is made by cooking crude oil into a gaseous state (think steam not gasoline) and it gets cooled and condensed back into the different liquids. Then transported to local tank farms where additives all processed the same way are blended in liquid form. The chance of contamination in that fuel process is very very low. Bio is a different story and depending what type of bio it is, and what type of modifiers is used, and most importantly how willing each company is to spend profit to ensure cleanliness all is huge factor. Johnny dumping in the chemicals might set the 2 buckets in the dirt a second then accidentally knock some in when he is pouring it in after climbing on the ladder to reach the lid.

Anyone of you could go buy food from a store, grow in your back yard, use your table scraps and make then sell to the open public your own bio fuel. Depending on your local rules for any business is wether it is restricted, inspected, or a free for all. Here, state of Nv says business license and tax id. No special inspection required. Clark county here adds fire marshall inspections for all businesses. But they don’t inspect process of operation. Las Vegas says must be proper neighborhood as does each city in this county. But Henderson allows fuel production and separation as does City of North Las Vegas, but not Las Vegas. Boulder City council didn’t even have an answer- like we were speaking Greek. We set up in all 3 (never Boulder City) with plastic to fuel, and there was no regulated inspection about fuel quality even in existence. But because it wasn’t crude to fuel- the EPA stopped us from selling. Not based on purity, quality, etc but because it isn’t a federally accepted fuel- basically they don’t know it is a fuel. One of the owners also owns a bio fuel production company. One time, the epa asked for a sample of fuel for bio fuel- he held it up to the ceiling light looking at clarity, smelled it, rubbed a little between his thumb and finger. Then handed it back- end of inspection. We were all laughing watching the security camera recording of it. But biofuel is a known and accepted fuel by the epa. So he sells it on the open market. There is no tests, inspections, etc of the fuel on any regular basis from his biofuel company. He sells that fuel to over 20 fuel stations in Nv.

When I worked at 76, part of my job (all the mechanics took turns) was to go to the tank farm for the quarterly inspections. The manager of that area had to shut down the automated system and operate everything by hand, so we were there to assist. Purity test, octane/cetane, flashpoint, ch count, contamination count- literally every single test you can imagine gets done on site with the inspector present and reading the meters himself while the manager or us did the tests. This all goes back to the major oil company wars trying to knock out smaller companies from competing back decades before I was born. That same 76 oils outfit did bio at the time I was there also- remember I mentioned the peanut oil fiasco? NEVER RUN PEANUT OIL!!! Then when the alcohol fuels of the 70’s came out (gasahol and such) cars were exploding after leaving fuel stations because mixes weren’t right. So quality inspections for hydrocarbon fuels became mandated. There is no fed mandatory inspections on the fuel made from bio to ensure repeated quality- None. That 76 stuff was in the 90’s, the plastic to fuel stuff and his bio stuff was 2015. Maybe different in your area? But driving road trips..?

So it is caveat emptor (buyer beware) legally on biofuel. You do the research on the supplier near you. You should all diy cloud/ gel point and flashpoint your own fuel if you are going to run it imo.

Good bio fuel has benefits for sure. So imo getting a wazzo lift pump filter system and 100% water stopping unit is crucial. Fass said theirs will stop flow when full. Idk about airdogg for sure but i think they said it will bypass- call them to verify an I suggest getting it in an email from them so they don’t just guess but have to verify.

Water in fuel tests becomes critical but you have to know which process/ chemical is used to make it. 95% will work with the common little kits available from any of the biofuel production companies out there (the little metal can with psi gauge and chemicals that come with it). But when you get into the 99-100% bio- you beed to know which reactor is needed.

Things like the fuel water separator funnel are nice, but only stop water that is not in suspension of the fuel because of the alcohols. The DOE says b100 can have up to 20% alcohol. So your “pure” biodiesel is really up to 30% methanol. Check their website. Wanna guess where that extra power can come from? More importantly how much water can 20% meth hold? 10%. Alcohol saturation is 50% by mass last chemistry class I took. Any drinkers here know about mixed drinks with water in it or bars that cut their drinks for profit? So your 1 gallon of b100 can actually be 1/10 water. Obviously that won’t tun right and something went wrong for it to happen- but 10% of your fuel getting through your ip and injectors can be water.

Yes many say I am anti biofuel. I would say I am VERY leery. I am not big oil. I get no kickbacks, make no money off it. Very pro- alternative fuel. But I have seen engine damage into the hundreds of thousands. You can accidentally fill up a 6.5 truck empty tank with gasoline and start the engine, run till it dies, drain all the gas and refill with diesel. A new fuel filter and drive again with no noticeable effects. Do it 3-4 times a year on same engine and you will still get 150,000 miles for that system without blinking an eye. Try that with 1% water. Ruin an ip, collect the fuel and prove to the station they have 18% water in their diesel and see if you get any compensation. sometimes people win the lottery but odds are not in your favor.

Learn how to make your own biofuel. Even if the work isn’t worth the savings and mess to diy- you know what to look for when you buy it.

 

[Will L.]

The difference in b100 and r100 is if the living organism is from ester or not. Or if esters are used in the production.
it is basically splitting hairs. Animal or plant with esters or without- all still were alive and bio is life. Basically some company wanted to be greener than green and had a classification subdivided.

Anyone remember the story of where our crude oil is supposed to come from?
Diesel-osaurus rex and plant-o-maximus and the cousins ate plants and or animal, drank water and maybe the occasional fermented grape, partied on the weekends and dies. Then through decomposition, a bit of weight and time= poof crude oil. We make fuel from that. So life becomes fuel through chemical alteration. That is NOT biofuel. Opposed to throw your dead dog, cow, whatever criter laying around and/or some table scraps like corn in the east field into the juice-o-matic 9000, a bit of time/heat/pressure for some chemical alteration and adding non bio chemicals =poof biofuel.

Now take some of those same criters; plants and turn them into fuel by again cooking/added outside chemicals/ etc and pay a politician for a new name= poof not biofuel but Renewable fuel.

Like, the plastic to fuel thing I bring up probably too often. Take crude oil, make plastic (which has zero sulfur) and melt it back into liquid, then into gaseous state. Let it seperate by weight and poof oils and fuels. But it is not considered hydrocarbon fuel same as crude oil hydrocarbon fuel.
Now if you take crude, separate the exact composition of the plastic, store it ON SITE, then reprocess it - it is crude fuel. But the moment you take that container of material off site, then make a u-turn and go back on site and do the exact same process... it is no longer considered crude fuel. Because, ya know, gubmint approved terminology. Even though both are fully synthetic fuels and oils.

One large company that bazillions of gallons of fuels wanted to make their own synthetic oils. Do they bought land next to their distillery, built the equipment and did it. Later they need to make ulsd and looked and replacing the oil area into fuel so they could make ulsd fuel with that same technology we did and make their fuel a synthetic blend. They were not allowed to do it because the land boundry of the original plant had to have the new process inside its area. Literally moving the containers 100 yard tothe side meant it is in a different technical classification.

Still think maybe its an source or emissions issue why they split the hairs? Go take a drop of conventional motor oil and fully synthetic motor oil of same grade and drop them on a cotton ball light both cotton balls and watch.

 

[dbrannon79]

@Will L. when you are talking about gasoline and cetane, you are saying gas does the same thing for added power and economy?

right now I add about 10 oz of power service diesel Kleen to a tank on my truck. a while back I had been using about 1/2 a quart of walmart 2 cycle oil. just our of curiosity if I were to run a quart of gasoline to a tank, say the 90 octane ethanol free stuff in with maybe going back to the 2 cycle oil for lubrication. with that achieve the same results or better?

a couple of years back my supervisor who drives a 98 ram with a cummins had accidentally dropped about 5 gallons of gasoline in his tank. (getting off night shift make ya do stupid stuff lol) realized what he did. filled it the rest of the way with diesel and drove it... he said it drove like a scalded ape and the engine was only slightly louder!

 

[WarWagon]

it is basically splitting hairs.

Is there a difference in the fuels aside of the "name"? Do these other process have the same leftover alcohol or do they have other problems? Are they, in fact, a different enough process?

FAME has an odor. The Propel HPR is said to not have the strong odor. The leftover alcohol with it's water holding, bug growing, hose trashing, problems from the FAME process ... I could see an advantage IF the other stuff doesn't have these problems with water alone.

Maybe like MTBE (groundwater disaster) being replaced with another alcohol in gasoline?

 

[Will L.]

The process is different but end result of still having alcohols in it is still the concern.
It doesn’t have to be used in the process. They can just choose to add alcohols into it.

 

[Rockabillyrat]

Yes, but good and bad. You can swing the fuel for more power, but there is always a gain/loss balance. When we made fuel, both bio and plastics, we could simply choose what power/efficiency/ clean burn whatever we wanted.
Its like when guys make wmo fuel by cutting filtered oil with a percentage of gasoline. Want a hair more power, add a hair more gas. Adding cetane is really same thing in diesel. People buy expensive additives as cetane booster and if they just dump in a quart of gasoline they get same effect. It really is done that way at the tank farm (fuel mixing plants).

Bio is a wide term. What you get in Ohio is gonna be different than whats in Iowa or Colorado. And in an area where there is many competitors making it the differences will be within a few miles. So learning about the differences and building to suit for it is definitely a good idea. That’s why I am always saying sae30r9. I am sure folks here went out of their way to get it from that recommendation, yet are somewhere that it is 1-2 levels above what they need for fuel in their area. And if they never go on road trips - could be they wasted $10 more than needed- but it makes all the difference for folks running pure corn juice within a couple years.

I used to love the gm ffm. Simple, efficient, compact. Now, not so much. Not knowing the alcohols or how much water is in the fuel in suspension is a serious issue. Back when we had pure petroleum fuel the water blocking ability of the ffm was ok and if/when the light came on you could drain and drive and never think twice. But with water in suspension the water can no longer make the electrical conduction like it should. It is spread out among all the fuel instead of separating and getting trapped. Now all the water is getting to the ip and injectors. So yeah, amazing water separation is important.

There is always outside contamination possible (dirt in the filling stations tank). Petroleum fuel is made by cooking crude oil into a gaseous state (think steam not gasoline) and it gets cooled and condensed back into the different liquids. Then transported to local tank farms where additives all processed the same way are blended in liquid form. The chance of contamination in that fuel process is very very low. Bio is a different story and depending what type of bio it is, and what type of modifiers is used, and most importantly how willing each company is to spend profit to ensure cleanliness all is huge factor. Johnny dumping in the chemicals might set the 2 buckets in the dirt a second then accidentally knock some in when he is pouring it in after climbing on the ladder to reach the lid.

Anyone of you could go buy food from a store, grow in your back yard, use your table scraps and make then sell to the open public your own bio fuel. Depending on your local rules for any business is wether it is restricted, inspected, or a free for all. Here, state of Nv says business license and tax id. No special inspection required. Clark county here adds fire marshall inspections for all businesses. But they don’t inspect process of operation. Las Vegas says must be proper neighborhood as does each city in this county. But Henderson allows fuel production and separation as does City of North Las Vegas, but not Las Vegas. Boulder City council didn’t even have an answer- like we were speaking Greek. We set up in all 3 (never Boulder City) with plastic to fuel, and there was no regulated inspection about fuel quality even in existence. But because it wasn’t crude to fuel- the EPA stopped us from selling. Not based on purity, quality, etc but because it isn’t a federally accepted fuel- basically they don’t know it is a fuel. One of the owners also owns a bio fuel production company. One time, the epa asked for a sample of fuel for bio fuel- he held it up to the ceiling light looking at clarity, smelled it, rubbed a little between his thumb and finger. Then handed it back- end of inspection. We were all laughing watching the security camera recording of it. But biofuel is a known and accepted fuel by the epa. So he sells it on the open market. There is no tests, inspections, etc of the fuel on any regular basis from his biofuel company. He sells that fuel to over 20 fuel stations in Nv.

When I worked at 76, part of my job (all the mechanics took turns) was to go to the tank farm for the quarterly inspections. The manager of that area had to shut down the automated system and operate everything by hand, so we were there to assist. Purity test, octane/cetane, flashpoint, ch count, contamination count- literally every single test you can imagine gets done on site with the inspector present and reading the meters himself while the manager or us did the tests. This all goes back to the major oil company wars trying to knock out smaller companies from competing back decades before I was born. That same 76 oils outfit did bio at the time I was there also- remember I mentioned the peanut oil fiasco? NEVER RUN PEANUT OIL!!! Then when the alcohol fuels of the 70’s came out (gasahol and such) cars were exploding after leaving fuel stations because mixes weren’t right. So quality inspections for hydrocarbon fuels became mandated. There is no fed mandatory inspections on the fuel made from bio to ensure repeated quality- None. That 76 stuff was in the 90’s, the plastic to fuel stuff and his bio stuff was 2015. Maybe different in your area? But driving road trips..?

So it is caveat emptor (buyer beware) legally on biofuel. You do the research on the supplier near you. You should all diy cloud/ gel point and flashpoint your own fuel if you are going to run it imo.

Good bio fuel has benefits for sure. So imo getting a wazzo lift pump filter system and 100% water stopping unit is crucial. Fass said theirs will stop flow when full. Idk about airdogg for sure but i think they said it will bypass- call them to verify an I suggest getting it in an email from them so they don’t just guess but have to verify.

Water in fuel tests becomes critical but you have to know which process/ chemical is used to make it. 95% will work with the common little kits available from any of the biofuel production companies out there (the little metal can with psi gauge and chemicals that come with it). But when you get into the 99-100% bio- you beed to know which reactor is needed.

Things like the fuel water separator funnel are nice, but only stop water that is not in suspension of the fuel because of the alcohols. The DOE says b100 can have up to 20% alcohol. So your “pure” biodiesel is really up to 30% methanol. Check their website. Wanna guess where that extra power can come from? More importantly how much water can 20% meth hold? 10%. Alcohol saturation is 50% by mass last chemistry class I took. Any drinkers here know about mixed drinks with water in it or bars that cut their drinks for profit? So your 1 gallon of b100 can actually be 1/10 water. Obviously that won’t tun right and something went wrong for it to happen- but 10% of your fuel getting through your ip and injectors can be water.

Yes many say I am anti biofuel. I would say I am VERY leery. I am not big oil. I get no kickbacks, make no money off it. Very pro- alternative fuel. But I have seen engine damage into the hundreds of thousands. You can accidentally fill up a 6.5 truck empty tank with gasoline and start the engine, run till it dies, drain all the gas and refill with diesel. A new fuel filter and drive again with no noticeable effects. Do it 3-4 times a year on same engine and you will still get 150,000 miles for that system without blinking an eye. Try that with 1% water. Ruin an ip, collect the fuel and prove to the station they have 18% water in their diesel and see if you get any compensation. sometimes people win the lottery but odds are not in your favor.

Learn how to make your own biofuel. Even if the work isn’t worth the savings and mess to diy- you know what to look for when you buy it.

Good info there Will. I'm rusty on my Biofuels stuff. I majored in auto/truck repair in college with a minor in alternative fuels. In the class we learned all about propane, CNG, hybrid/electric, and Biodiesel. We made our own ethanol and biodiesel in the 12 week class. One of the few classes I kept all my book from. Its been 15 years now so I need to dig out the books and do a refresher on Biofuels. A proper fuel system to handle filtering and running biofuels is a must. Its a good thing I will be building my own pumps by the end of the year.