Opinions on McQuay Norris chassis parts?

[TurboTahoe]

Hi guys,

I'm preparing to rebuild the front end of the Tahoe.

We're talking:

• Pitman Arm
• Idler Arm
• Tie Rod Ends
• Idler Pivot
• Upper and Lower Ball Joints, both sides

I'm going to have it done at Les Schwab, a local tire and chassis outfit.

They said they are using aftermarket parts from McQuay Norris http://www.mcquaynorris.com

What do you guys think of these parts?

I am also considering upgrading to a SuperSteer idler pivot and Cognito Pitman and Idler Pivot. Any opinions on those items? I've read the threads on Pitman arm breakage, and I figure IF I do the Cognito braces, I'd better have all new parts.

Your expert opinions are solicited gentlemen!

-Rob

 

[btfarm]

Took a look around for them in Google but didn't see anything alarming Rob. I've never heard of them. The only advice I will give you is to make DAMN SURE there isn't any excess play in your steering box if you are doing braces. Based on the findings of broken pitman arms in the past. If it was me, I would stay away from the braces for now. A good tight steering gear is probably all you need anyhow.

 

[Pepperidge]

While I raised a red flag on cognito's as a caution to you Rob...I still have mine on...they were put on with well over 60k on the truck... most of those with 285's on it...I did not replace the pitman or idler when I had it done but the shop I took my truck to checked the play and found no obvious wear... I have since put about + or - 40 4wd boosted launches in the 1/4 mile...I feel fairly confident in them...I just can't openly say do it without replacing the other parts when I am recommending them to someone else...I just want it to be safe...

 

[TurboTahoe]

While I raised a red flag on cognito's as a caution to you Rob...I still have mine on...they were put on with well over 60k on the truck... most of those with 285's on it...I did not replace the pitman or idler when I had it done but the shop I took my truck to checked the play and found no obvious wear... I have since put about + or - 40 4wd boosted launches in the 1/4 mile...I feel fairly confident in them...I just can't openly say do it without replacing the other parts when I am recommending them to someone else...I just want it to be safe...

Hey, I really appreciate the care and consideration put into your opinion - that's why I think that this forum is extremely well run. People here are generally polite and make carefully considered opinions on the whole.

I agree that starting with a top-condition steering assembly should be the way to go. I actually disagree with Cognito's claim that they can 'rejuvenate' worn components. That seems like a really dangerous claim. I believe that common sense would say that worn components would have more stress placed upon them and would be much more prone to breakage.

So... Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate it!

-Rob

 

[schiker]

So it looks like Mquay Norris is affiliated with Affinia group??? I don't see McQuay-Norris as a listed trademark on Thomanet dot com but do see Affinia.
Don't know anything about that brand but that doesn't mean anything at all.

I do think Cognito might actually tighten up some slop.

The braces are just another Radius support of the linkage. It doesn't add any torsional support but does make the draglink track true to radius of the pitman/idler arm (as true as the brace tracks). It should not bind if installed correctly. It may increase stress on the OE draglink pitman joint components if the steering box is over turning and the cognito braces makes the draglink track true and not allowing more give in the fore and aft direction. Or in other words the extra give in the fore and aft direction allows the steering box to travel a little further because the draglink can move a little closer due to draglink hole - pitman arm or idler stud center radius variation due to fore aft flex of the joints at the linkage ends.

In general its not good to turn and hold force in the full turn lock position this puts components against max rigidity and or in a bind - like between a rock and a hard place.

According to what Nor-cal saw in another box when oversteer from box hits the stops it stresses the pitman stud. Not exactly the same as slop in the box itself. Its saying the box is trying to torque the pitman to turn further than the draglink can travel.

What happened in the other trucks is a failure at the top side of the draglink between the pitman joint and stud. The failure appears to be between the actual stud of the pitman connection. The joint was actually still intact (which is where the joint movement is or slop).

***
So I think its important to make sure the steering box is not trying to push past the wheel balljoint pivot limits is the key.
***

The pitman stud is coned and when tightened into the draglink could be condsidered a rigid part of the draglink for analysis (because there is no movement between the 2 at all). If there was any fretting, bruising, discoloring, or any wear indication on the taper connection then that changes analysis. The Cognito tightens from the bottom and might change the exact shear characteristics of the threaded portion of the stud but as long as the taper is locked tight it should be far enough away from the top side not to have any influence on the stud. So the failure appears to be with the stud itself.

I think oversized tires stessed maybe a suspect quality part. Then "bump stops" and how hard you turn against "bump stops" or lock to lock should be looked at closely here. especially with lifted trucks and oversized tires.


I think the cognito braces tighten the joint at the draglink but might add stress at the box and idler body because it will force those components to hold the draglink tight. The box and idler body are still stronger than the stud at the end flex joint and where the weak link appeared on these failures.

 

[schiker]

Maybe why cognito seems to advise combination GM parts with congito is that they want to ensure exact specifications of pivot distance of linkage.

If the pitman arm is any bit slightly longer than stock it will want the draglink to move farther or turn farther. And Cognito doesn't want the steering box to bump against the turning stops.

 

[Pepperidge]

Thanks guys...this is turning into an excellent thread...

 

[btfarm]

Nicely thought out post Schiker.:thumbsup:

 

[Nor-Cal Nick]

Hey, I really appreciate the care and consideration put into your opinion - that's why I think that this forum is extremely well run. People here are generally polite and make carefully considered opinions on the whole.

I agree that starting with a top-condition steering assembly should be the way to go. I actually disagree with Cognito's claim that they can 'rejuvenate' worn components. That seems like a really dangerous claim. I believe that common sense would say that worn components would have more stress placed upon them and would be much more prone to breakage.

So... Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate it!

-Rob

Where did you ever read or see this? That is not the purpose of the product and in fact it is advised to start with new parts or make sure there is no wear in the pitman or idler when installing the Cognito braces. If this is stated somewhere I would like to know because you are right that is not possible.

 

[Nor-Cal Nick]

As for the search for the "BEST" parts to replace the OE's with really it's all about set up and making sure you use the proper upgrades to match what you use your truck for or how large the tire and wheel is. These trucks see failure/wear in the idler and pitman even in factory form so add a lift or larger tires and the wear or failure gets increased. If you use your truck in more extreme cases then again you will see wear sooner than normal.

The common across the board way to step up the strength of the front steering is by starting off with a nice set of new idler and pitman arms (Moog is what we use common here and sale) and then add a set of Cognito steering braces to "Brace" the idler and pitman from excessive movement and reducing wear for longer life. If the braces are installed on a set of idlers and pitman's with alot of wear you can run the risk of cracking the brace, again they are braces and not meant to handle the full load or excessive movement.

From there other upgrades and product is offered but to be more detailed to each end user.

Here is a pic of what the braces look like installed:

 

[btfarm]

What keeps these from pivoting independent of the outer end of the pitman and idler where they are sandwich joined together if they become slightly loose? Are they an exact spline match at the pitman joint? If so are they clocked exactly? The one at the idler can be fighting the arm for position it looks like. Forgive me if these are stupid questions but I have not seen them in person.

 

[schiker]

No they don't appear to be splined or clocked any way; from pictures the holes are smooth.

That's why I say they don't provide any torsional support. But they do maybe a little due to the sandwiching where you are questioning.

There should not be any relative motion at the base of the steering box stud pitman and or between the brace/pitman with good parts. As they wear maybe some will build between brace and pitman but it will still stay pretty low.

Looking at it again the brace adds radius support by helping keep the joints "square" which probably makes the "bearing" surface of the joints more "aligned" properly.

As for the idler its just a follower so no real torque on there. It just has some linkage reaction forces to make it track like the steering box pitman motion. The both joints just swivel no reaction torque except friction.

 

[TurboTahoe]

Where did you ever read or see this? That is not the purpose of the product and in fact it is advised to start with new parts or make sure there is no wear in the pitman or idler when installing the Cognito braces. If this is stated somewhere I would like to know because you are right that is not possible.

Hi Nick,

It's right in Cognito's website, and it very clear and unmistakable that they advertise this for installation on worn systems.

See here:

http://cognitomotorsports.com/store/page24.html

AND HERE:

http://cognitomotorsports.com/store/page12.html

"The Cognito Motorsports Solution:
The Mechanical Engineer at Cognito Motorsports has come up with a non traditional design to fix this problem, and it works GREAT! The support kit can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them!"

Just in case the page is changed, here's an archive attached. There is no doubt that Cognito advertises these as 'reviving' worn parts! I am NOT making this up!

Sincerely,

-Rob

 

[TurboTahoe]

Nick,

Since you're a vendor, can you contact Cognito about this? It seems to me highly inappropriate if installing their braces on a worn system would create safety problems.

-Rob

 

[Nor-Cal Nick]

Hi Nick,

It's right in Cognito's website, and it very clear and unmistakable that they advertise this for installation on worn systems.

See here:

http://cognitomotorsports.com/store/page24.html

AND HERE:

http://cognitomotorsports.com/store/page12.html

"The Cognito Motorsports Solution:
The Mechanical Engineer at Cognito Motorsports has come up with a non traditional design to fix this problem, and it works GREAT! The support kit can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them!"

Just in case the page is changed, here's an archive attached. There is no doubt that Cognito advertises these as 'reviving' worn parts! I am NOT making this up!

Sincerely,

-Rob

I think the wording might need some better way of explanation for sure. The one thing to know is that in OE form off the showroom floor the center link has twist at the idler and pitman, Cognito braces will clean that up but if you have a pitman and idler that has excessive wear these are "Braces" not a product to restore the pitman and idler to not have slop in the socket/joint. You could even risk cracking the brace if installed on a very sloppy set of idler and pitman arms. I have been selling this product for years and have sold hundreds and seen very few failures where the brace has cracked and I always highly suggest to make sure there is not any excessive wear other wise replace the pitman and idler with a fresh set.

 

[Nor-Cal Nick]

Nick,

Since you're a vendor, can you contact Cognito about this? It seems to me highly inappropriate if installing their braces on a worn system would create safety problems.

-Rob

Rob, I read the link and you failed to include the rest of what they state to make complete sence of what you where thinking of "Wear"....

"The Cognito Motorsports Solution:
The Mechanical Engineer at Cognito Motorsports has come up with a non traditional design to fix this problem, and it works GREAT! The support kit can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them! If the worn parts have approximately 40,000 miles or less on them with a close to stock size tire, they probably will not have to be changed. If the worn parts have approximately 20,000 miles or less on them with larger than 33� tires, they probably will not have to be changed. If the parts have more miles than that on them, it is recommended to replace the pitman and idler arms with factory units and add the Cognito Motorsports Pitman and Idler Arm Support Kit. This innovative design is so unique that it has a UTILITY PATENT . The support system works by double capturing the studs that protrude from the pitman and idler arms which the center link connects to. At the same time it still allows the studs to pivot on their own axis which is needed when the steering system is turning. This Cognito Motorsports system provides the support needed to prevent the center link from rocking forward and backward in the vehicle."



This really sums up what to look for and in no way suggests it will infarct fix something with excessive wear, go by the guide lines and you will have great luck with the product:thumbsup:.

 

[TurboTahoe]

Thank you for chiming in as someone with experience in these things, Nick.

I think that the advertisement from Cognito is very poorly worded and confusing, especially for someone not familiar with the braces or how they work, like me.

The text in red is helpful, but to preface those statements by saying that the braces "can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them." is very confusing, especially if your rig wears at a faster rate than others, based on your setup. I've heard guys say that they need to replace pitman and idler arms at 10K when running oversized tires and a lift.

I think it would be much clearer for them to say something like: "Cognito braces can help to prevent wear on a system in good condition. It is not designed to correct excessive wear. It is recommended that a front-end specialist examine and repair any excessively worn parts. If the worn parts have approximately 40,000 miles or less on them with a close to stock size tire, they probably will not have to be changed. If the worn parts have approximately 20,000 miles or less on them with larger than 33" tires, they probably will not have to be changed. If the parts have more miles than that on them, it is recommended to replace the pitman and idler arms with factory units and add the Cognito Motorsports Pitman and Idler Arm Support Kit."

Bottom line is that I am not letting Cognito off the hook for having confusing language in their ads.

-Rob

 

[btfarm]

To me, the key misleading (and possibly irresponsible) phrase is this one:
"The support kit can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them!"
I'm also concerned, as an engineer, with the dynamics of the pitman brace. Not an analytical concern with back-up data... Just one of those gut feelings.

I have no desire to discredit anyone here or at Cognito. I'm sure they know a ton more about steering geometry than I do but I am concerned about the issues that have seen failures to 2 of our members trucks.
JMHO

 

[TurboTahoe]

To me, the key misleading (and possibly irresponsible) phrase is this one:
"The support kit can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them!"
I'm also concerned, as an engineer, with the dynamics of the pitman brace. Not an analytical concern with back-up data... Just one of those gut feelings.

I have no desire to discredit anyone here or at Cognito. I'm sure they know a ton more about steering geometry than I do but I am concerned about the issues that have seen failures to 2 of our members trucks.
JMHO

btfarm, you've concisely summarized my thoughts exactly.

-Rob

 

[Nor-Cal Nick]

Thank you for chiming in as someone with experience in these things, Nick.

I think that the advertisement from Cognito is very poorly worded and confusing, especially for someone not familiar with the braces or how they work, like me.

The text in red is helpful, but to preface those statements by saying that the braces "can be installed on pitman and idler arms showing a lot of wear, and actually revive them." is very confusing, especially if your rig wears at a faster rate than others, based on your setup. I've heard guys say that they need to replace pitman and idler arms at 10K when running oversized tires and a lift.

I think it would be much clearer for them to say something like: "Cognito braces can help to prevent wear on a system in good condition. It is not designed to correct excessive wear. It is recommended that a front-end specialist examine and repair any excessively worn parts. If the worn parts have approximately 40,000 miles or less on them with a close to stock size tire, they probably will not have to be changed. If the worn parts have approximately 20,000 miles or less on them with larger than 33" tires, they probably will not have to be changed. If the parts have more miles than that on them, it is recommended to replace the pitman and idler arms with factory units and add the Cognito Motorsports Pitman and Idler Arm Support Kit."

Bottom line is that I am not letting Cognito off the hook for having confusing language in their ads.

-Rob

I can see your concerns and understand if you want to express it so their email would be your way of doing so.

[email protected]