No oil pressure at idle after rebuild, new block!

[turbovanman]

Isn't that oil pressure still a little low (20-25 psi) when hot......You would think around 40psi (about 1/2 way on the gauge) for a fresh rebuild/refresh?

Not trying to throw any fuel on the fire,.....just asking.

Anyway I know your glad to have that job out of your shop.......Good follow thru, alot of guys would of gave up or subbed it out or whatever.

Spec is something like 12 psi at idle, hot. From the posts I've seen on here and searching, 20 ish psi hot and 40-50 at 2500 is the norm. My brothers 400K 6.5 has 20 hot and 50 at 2500. It should be higher I agree but we can't figure it out. If you've read this thread, you can everything has been checked a million times, :sad:

So thats hot, 1/4 on the gauge at idle is 20-25 psi and 40-50 at 2500 is halfway on the gauge. 75 psi is 3/4's, I verified all this using an external gauge.

Yeah, I couldn't give up, I would have lost the only money I made and on top of the other losses, this would have been tragic. My customer needed his truck so I had to do it, also more out of principle for me too, :thumbsup:

 

[MRB 6.5TD]

:sifone:Job well done! Have a beer.

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

Yeah, I couldn't give up, I would have lost the only money I made and on top of the other losses, this would have been tragic. My customer needed his truck so I had to do it, also more out of principle for me too

You made money on that job?.......Your a good business man, that deal sounded like a loser to me.......Or at best, a break "even" deal.

Good for you, tvm.

 

[turbovanman]

You made money on that job?.......Your a good business man, that deal sounded like a loser to me.......Or at best, a break "even" deal.

Good for you, tvm.

No, I lost my shirt, I figure it cost me $10K. The money for the job is really just to cover the parts I bought and some time, better than nothing. Machinist is out about 10K also for all the parts he bought and lost labour to redo the engine while putting other jobs aside. Thanks for the kudo's.

I just couldn't give up, I don't work like that.

 

[Edzzed]

No, I lost my shirt, I figure it cost me $10K. The money for the job is really just to cover the parts I bought and some time, better than nothing. Machinist is out about 10K also for all the parts he bought and lost labour to redo the engine while putting other jobs aside. Thanks for the kudo's.

I just couldn't give up, I don't work like that.

Nice to see an honest shop. maybe if I ever need a rebuild i'll come see you. Oh and I have an oil squirter block. we aren't that far away, we are in Surrey. and I have the BCAA RV package who will tow it up to 300 kms. Ed

 

[Missy Good Wench]

So what was the final acessment as to the loss of pressure???

Very curious

MGW

 

[Missy Good Wench]

Normal pressure on a 6.5 is about 20-25 hot idle and 40 down the road.

my 94 burb runs 50 on the road normally and idles at around 30. The clerances on the bottom end are all right spot on at .0002"

Fresh oil pump too (ma general)

 

[Missy Good Wench]

That original block has got to have a drilled passage that is too far and leaks of was not plugged correctly.

Possibly lifter bores too large???

All oil passages are traceable.

The oil feed from the oil pump to the lifter galleries. One side feeds the cam bearing bores and from there the oil drops to the crank.

The oil feeds the cooler first then to the filter housing through the filter and from there to the engine

The RH side gallery feeds the turbo oil passage

My bet is a passage drilled too far and it broke through the casting in a place that can't be seen easily.


MGW

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

Nice to see an honest shop. maybe if I ever need a rebuild i'll come see you.

X2..........You don't have any "cohourts" down in New york, do you?

Always looking for a good ("technician") wrench turner!

 

[turbovanman]

Nice to see an honest shop. maybe if I ever need a rebuild i'll come see you. Oh and I have an oil squirter block. we aren't that far away, we are in Surrey. and I have the BCAA RV package who will tow it up to 300 kms. Ed

Thanks, if you ever need anything, you can PM me or call me at my shop, 604-533-1162, its in Langley.

My labour rate is $92 an hour, not cheap but not too expensive and I use the flat rate book.

Oil squirter block, oye, :sad: ):h

So what was the final acessment as to the loss of pressure???

Very curious

MGW

No idea, we just figure for some reason, the squirters squirted too much. Like I posted earlier, we pressurized the block and saw 8 huge streams of oil,

We just can't figure out why 2 blocks did it, an aftermarket and OE, and all specs were well within spec.

We'll chalk this up to the Twilight Zone, cue music and Rod Sterling, :thumbsup:

That original block has got to have a drilled passage that is too far and leaks of was not plugged correctly.

Possibly lifter bores too large???

All oil passages are traceable.

The oil feed from the oil pump to the lifter galleries. One side feeds the cam bearing bores and from there the oil drops to the crank.

The oil feeds the cooler first then to the filter housing through the filter and from there to the engine

The RH side gallery feeds the turbo oil passage

My bet is a passage drilled too far and it broke through the casting in a place that can't be seen easily.


MGW

Don't know, see above.

X2..........You don't have any "cohourts" down in New york, do you?

Always looking for a good ("technician") wrench turner!

Sorry, I don't but I am on a turbo-mopar forum so if you need anything, I can ask on there, they have some members from New York.

 

[consaka]

I know this is an old post but I have a non-squirter block with that same problem. Only I have put about 60 thousand miles or so on it. I am currently building a new engine just because I can't handle the stress. lol
Watching your oil pressure dwindle to nothing at idle in city traffic is stressful. Out on the freeway 65mph it sits at about 22psi. It was a junkyard block I rebuilt. New everything. Put a 98 oil pump in it to help combat the problem and just drove it. Mind you this engine is in a van, not so easy to get to.
Before our last trip to WI, 2000 miles one way, I pulled the pan again and ran the pump with a drill. Tons of oil coming down somewhere near the cam in front of the back two cylinders. Can't see up there for squat.
I'm with Missy in that I think there is a block defect somewhere. Something is cracked and or broken away and leaking oil like crazy. When I get the new engine in that old one, which runs great by the way, is going to get examined with a fine tooth comb and lots of air pressure and oil pressure to see where it is coming from.

 

[consaka]

I know this is an old post but I have a non-squirter block with that same problem. Only I have put about 60 thousand miles or so on it. I am currently building a new engine just because I can't handle the stress. lol
Watching your oil pressure dwindle to nothing at idle in city traffic is stressful. Out on the freeway 65mph it sits at about 22psi. It was a junkyard block I rebuilt. New everything. Put a 98 oil pump in it to help combat the problem and just drove it. Mind you this engine is in a van, not so easy to get to.
Before our last trip to WI, 2000 miles one way, I pulled the pan again and ran the pump with a drill. Tons of oil coming down somewhere near the cam in front of the back two cylinders. Can't see up there for squat.
I'm with Missy in that I think there is a block defect somewhere. Something is cracked and or broken away and leaking oil like crazy. When I get the new engine in that old one, which runs great by the way, is going to get examined with a fine tooth comb and lots of air pressure and oil pressure to see where it is coming from.

 

[Will L.]

When you put it together, did you measure the new cam bearings, cam, and block where cam bearings go? #1 failure point I have seen. In hundreds of these engines I have rebuilt that is where I fear as bad as if not worse than main webs.

Really only 2 pumps btw standard and high volume. I am really thinking of an external wet sump pump.

 

[WarWagon]

You have a known good mechanical oil pressure gauge verifying you indeed have low oil pressure?

 

[consaka]

When you put it together, did you measure the new cam bearings, cam, and block where cam bearings go? #1 failure point I have seen. In hundreds of these engines I have rebuilt that is where I fear as bad as if not worse than main webs.

Really only 2 pumps btw standard and high volume. I am really thinking of an external wet sump pump.

Yes I know there are only two pumps. I checked the cams and they fit fine and were tight. I also have considered an external dry sump. I did add an extra electric pump to assist the turbo when hot. I T'd it in right before the turbo. Another 5 thousand mile trip down and in the bag though I think the pump may be shot now. lol Hot it would give an extra 4 lbs though I was mostly after the volume.
Hmm how to delete a previous post? I see it shows I quoted myself? weird.

 

[consaka]

You have a known good mechanical oil pressure gauge verifying you indeed have low oil pressure?

Hmm trust me, I may seem like a complete imbecile sometimes but I can assure you that after 35 years of working on mechanical stuff I have learned to double check the obvious and not so obvious. If I have had the oil pan off twice I would hope I had double checked the pressure with 4 different gauges. You have any idea what a pain in the A$$ is is to pull the pan off in a van? lol On the plus side all the rod and main bearings looked great - both times.
I'll be taking pictures when I figure out the best method of pulling that engine. Also when I tear it down.

 

[Will L.]

WarWagon's question was ligit, too many people to always remember who has what mechanical capacity, and we will all throw the obvious ones because sometimes everyone just plain misses something.

Yeah, around $3000 for a dry sump is a normal cost. About 1/2 for external wet sump.

What pump did you add? Can you take pics of what you did?

Yes, pulling a van engine is about as hard as pulling a hummer engine. Total p.i.t.a. I feel for ya.

 

[WarWagon]

Hmm trust me, I may seem like a complete imbecile sometimes but I can assure you that after 35 years of working on mechanical stuff I have learned to double check the obvious and not so obvious. If I have had the oil pan off twice I would hope I had double checked the pressure with 4 different gauges. You have any idea what a pain in the A$$ is is to pull the pan off in a van? lol On the plus side all the rod and main bearings looked great - both times.
I'll be taking pictures when I figure out the best method of pulling that engine. Also when I tear it down.

Glad you have taken that step. We are not there so it's kinda vague what people have or have not done.

I run 15w-50 oil in mine to help with hot summers dropping the oil pressure off. Maybe a straight 40 weight would be the next step before I have to pull it out.

So does this van engine has the turbo in the center valley with the oil drain/return there? (As opposed to a custom remote mount turbo I know at least one member @turbovanman did.) If so did you block the oil flow to the turbo when you were watching the high return with the drill? Just wondering if you are watching the turbo oil drain back. WAG: Perhaps the turbo gasket is leaking pressure to the return? From the pictures I can find of the van turbo it looks plausible to blow the oil supply gasket directly into the return without a external oil leak. Also have you considered the turbo itself?

 

[consaka]

WarWagon's question was ligit, too many people to always remember who has what mechanical capacity, and we will all throw the obvious ones because sometimes everyone just plain misses something.
Yeah, around $3000 for a dry sump is a normal cost. About 1/2 for external wet sump.
What pump did you add? Can you take pics of what you did?
Yes, pulling a van engine is about as hard as pulling a hummer engine. Total p.i.t.a. I feel for ya.

Well I admit not being able to keep track of what sites have my information, I do try to leave clues that rebuilding an engine and or troubleshooting is not my first rodeo in the auto dept. I will try to double check my profile here as I find this site has some of the best builds and resources and knowledgeable people. Despite having worked on many different engines from Semi's to Briggs since I was 10 years old or so, there is always something new that can be learned out there. Always a new mystery with something that should seem mundane. You guys usually keep it up there and a quick search here, for something I have forgotten usually gives an answer or jars a memory.
Dry sump too expensive, same is true for external wet sump in my opinion and I haven't even looked up how those work. Never made one.
The pump was supposed to work for oil and pump up to 50 lbs or so. I don't have any pictures as I am not that proud of it. I am more proud of my vacuum pump fix. All I did was run a line from the bottom of the oil pan through a 12 inch radiator cooler then to the pump and then through a remote mount spin on filter to the T in the turbo line. The order of the important elements was a huge problem for me. On one hand I didn't want the pump to have to deal with vaccum. On the other hand I didn't want the pump to have to deal with 260 degree oil either. I wanted clean oil for the pump as well but felt that trying to suck through the filter was probably a bad thing. So I stuck it in the middle. The pump was also not what I wanted as it was not ideal at all. I didn't want pressure so much as I wanted volume. 65 psi at 2 liters a minute? does hardly anything. 20 psi at 6 to 8 liters a minute would have been better. I also wanted a switch to turn it on automatically when the pressure hit 5psi and off at 15psi with a timer so it could be used as a turbo lube/cooler on shutdown. In the end putting in another engine will allow me to do a few different experiments I wanted to do. I already replace the second rings with total seal rings and that seems to work really good but I need to tear down the engine for inspection to be sure they have held up.

The problem with the van is I used to roll the engine out on the front axle with the transmission sitting on a box on a dolly. Just unhook everything and jack the front of the van up 5 feet or so with the cherry picker. Block it up and roll it out. BUT that was before the 4x4 conversion This time around I have to remove the front axle and decide whether or not to pull the whole drivetrain.

 

[consaka]

Glad you have taken that step. We are not there so it's kinda vague what people have or have not done.

I run 15w-50 oil in mine to help with hot summers dropping the oil pressure off. Maybe a straight 40 weight would be the next step before I have to pull it out.

So does this van engine has the turbo in the center valley with the oil drain/return there? (As opposed to a custom remote mount turbo I know at least one member @turbovanman did.) If so did you block the oil flow to the turbo when you were watching the high return with the drill? Just wondering if you are watching the turbo oil drain back. WAG: Perhaps the turbo gasket is leaking pressure to the return? From the pictures I can find of the van turbo it looks plausible to blow the oil supply gasket directly into the return without a external oil leak. Also have you considered the turbo itself?

The problem with heavier weight oil is it creates more heat. I noticed more problems from the increased heat than with the lighter weight oil. While on our last trip I could not find any xw-50 or higher. I did sub a few quarts of 60 weight motorcycle oil and a couple cans of STP oil treatment. Didn't seem to make a huge difference one way or another but I feel it is down a few lbs when it is hot. Speaking of which, heat is a big deal on oil viscosity. To keep at least 4 lbs at idle I have to keep the oil temp under 140-160. You know how hard that is? lol

This van has an entirely custom turbo mount location fabbed by me in times past. Not sure I would do it the same again. However, confession time. I broke a few rules. You know how they say you can't weld to cast iron? Well you can. I cut the passenger side exhaust manifold off at/before the bend. Took some cheap (galvanized) 90? exhaust pipe from the local parts house and shaped it to fit the manifold but pointing up at a slight angle toward center and welded it on with a bazillion passes of the mig welder. lol That thing was before I knew any secrets of welding cast, you know like PREHEATING it. lol That thing popped and broke the weld loose the first 2 or 3 passes around before it heated up enough to start holding. Almost 15 years later it is still holding and at time it supports the weight of the turbo. Like when the bracket broke off that holds the huge friggin turbo that Peninsular diesel provided with their kit back in the day. I still would love to know what that turbo is as far as specs go.
The exhaust from the drivers side goes down and crosses under the torque converter. and then goes up to meet the collector for the turbo. The turbo sits above the passenger rear corner of the engine at an angle. The oil drain is literally less than 3.5 inches to the top of the valve cover where I welded a nipple for it. Hindsight it probably isn't big enough in diameter but it's been working. I chopped the intake manifold cover and crudely pop riveted pieces of aluminum tubing together and took it to a local shop and had them weld it up. I would just do it myself today. Didn't have a tig welder then. The turbo intake is still a problem because I can't get it to fresh air. I plan on finding the flattest intake filter box and hooking it to the hood with a louver on the hood for fresh air. For now the cone filter behind the radiator will have to do. Has been doing for many many years I should say. Not ideal at all. Seen post turbo air temps near 300 degrees before. I would have done a remote turbo at the time if I had a source for sump pumps.
Confession time. I don't recall blocking the turbo oil feed. It would be a logical thing to do. But that was last july before our august trip. I can't recall all the details. I'm getting old I guess.
The turbo is a bit of concern for me. Mostly because I have no idea what it is. It is whatever Peninsular sent out with their marine build kits some 15? years ago. At this point today all I know is that it is a name brand unit. I know it is not a holset and think it might be a sweitzer? Something like that. It's huge, I seen turbos on semi's that were physically smaller on the turbine side.
Supposedly Holset turbos, not sure about the CK versions, do not require and oil line restrictor. No clue if this turbo is supposed to have one or not. It doesn't use much oil but the intake is oily. The feed line is a standard size and not very big considering its length so I don't think there should be huge losses there even if it is supposed to have a restrictor.
I called Peninsular up and asked them for specs on the turbo. They hemmed and hawed around and basically gave me nothing. Like they thought it was some kind of big trade secret. Jokes on them because I can take it apart and measure all the components and I know you guys can take that info and tell me exactly what it is equivalent to. I can rebuild a turbo easy enough but I am no expert on sizing one or how the maps and stuff work.
I have a crappy camera and the fact that this is no show rig has kept me from making videos on it. My grandfather wasn't to hot with his rewiring and I haven't fixed it or improved that part much either. Kinda embarrassing actually.