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Newer ds4 injection pump

T

TAG

Member
Messages
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30
Location
grand rapids mi.
My son did some digging to find out what amg is using for a pump on the p400 in the Humvee. It appears the pump they are using for it is a ds4831-6033. I think I saw somewhere the engine is rated at 250hp. I'm pretty sure this pump is capable of more than that as one of the pump test stand measurements is 123.1mm3. It looks like this pump came out about the time they started using the cat controller. The overall look of the pump & sensors is the same as the 5521. Obviously, some programming work would be required to run this thing. The satanadyne dealer he spoke with said it showed up as orderable, but he wasn't sure without contacting stanadyne. He did mention a number around $2000.00. Just thought this might interest some of you guys.
 
As I understand it, it is a good bit different than the ds4 the 6.5l came with. I believe it uses de pump design, so it would need alot of tuning to make work.
 
And the cat controller doesn't come cheap. There are some hummer guys trying to find them unsuccessfully. There was a year or 2 civy hummer/ H1 used them. 04 comes to mind, but I cant really remember at the moment.
 
I think my son's whole interest in this exercise is to try to determine if the pump could be run with a gm ECM. So far, from the parts breakdown, it appears the architecture of the pump is the same as previous models.
 
If this is truly a larger output DS4 and it does work with the PCM, seems to me that the easier part is dialing in the tuning to properly burn the fuel.

The bigger challenge is dumping the heat once the fuel burns.


Aside (and semi-related), Peninsular stated to me that the GM OE DS4 (with marine injectors and the ATT) was capable of reaching the P-400's rating of 250 hp / 500 ft-lb under the presumption that the PCM was properly tuned; however they went silent when I prodded for a reference for whom they used to do the tune. In reality (with the 4L80#), am getting about 250 hp, but the torque is just a tad bit under 400, so Peninsular's claims seems a little optimistic for a GM OE DS4. If there is a better electronic IP available to fully take advantage of the P-400's power rating, will look forward to having it as an option :D
 
I spent a little more time studying the breakdown and it does appear this is just a higher capacity version of the 5521. It still uses the optic sensor, timing stepper motor, rear mounted fuel solenoid and pmd. All of the components are in the same place, the internal parts all look to be of the same design. I'm not sure how many ways exist to skin a cat as far as programming to run it. Bottom line, need to turn the fuel solenoid on for x number of degrees. I'm not sure if I'm up for the 2+ grand entry price, but I do have a test mule engine to experiment with. Would certainly be interesting.
 
ak diesel driver said:
Got any links?
Click to expand...
No links. My son figured it out somehow & contacted a stanadyne dealer. They supplied the info. Looks like the info came off a dealer portal to stanadyne. I'm a little leery of putting it on line. I would suggest to anybody that's interested to contact a dealer as they had no reservations about giving me the info. I put this info up here as I see a lot of people interested in putting more fuel in than a 5521 can deliver. Looks like this pump would be the answer.
 
Did a little digging on the stanadyne site and numbers breakdown, and that pump you list for the p400 is the same size pump as the standard ds4 pump the 6.5l comes with. The 1st set of numbers gives you the breakdown, ds4831. D is for D series, S is for solenoid control, 4 is for the number of plungers, 8 is for the number of cylinders served, and 31 is for .310 diameter plungers. The last 4 is for the revision of the pump, so it is just a later revision design I'm guessing which just means Stanadyne made some changes to allow it to better use what the pump can do.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
Did a little digging on the stanadyne site and numbers breakdown, and that pump you list for the p400 is the same size pump as the standard ds4 pump the 6.5l comes with. The 1st set of numbers gives you the breakdown, ds4831. D is for D series, S is for solenoid control, 4 is for the number of plungers, 8 is for the number of cylinders served, and 31 is for .310 diameter plungers. The last 4 is for the revision of the pump, so it is just a later revision design I'm guessing which just means Stanadyne made some changes to allow it to better use what the pump can do.
Click to expand...
It's rated at 250 - 500 in the Humvee. It's not a 5521. Like I said in the first post, it shows a test point of 121mm in the test manual. You yourself have said many times the 5&21 can't go over 85 mm.
 
TAG said:
I'm not sure if I'm up for the 2+ grand entry price, but I do have a test mule engine to experiment with. Would certainly be interesting.
Click to expand...

$2K is not a big jump from what my last new (not reman) IP cost. It was $1,700 when I bought it ~4 years ago. Factor in that I had read where Stanadyne wanted to start getting out of the diesel market a couple years ago, and it is easy to see how a new IP is in the $2K range (old business model of driving up the price, which kills demand, and then the manufacturer is able to 'legitimately' and 'face-savingly' state it is dropping the product due to lack of demand).


TAG said:
It's rated at 250 - 500 in the Humvee.
Click to expand...

Am not so sure that the HMMVW is getting all 250 / 500 to the wheels as last I read, even Banks could not get much past 450 ft-lb. Also do not know how it was measured (whole truck on the rollers versus just the motor on a bench), whether that was steady state torque, or whether it was peak / spike (from tranny assistance). Basically, the point is that the as-manufactured HMMVW gets less than what Banks gets after mods.

For comparison, while my dyno shows the current configuration is getting ~395 ft-lb, there was a peak of around 460 but we tossed that number out as it was likely from the tranny locking the TCC given that it was a spike fairly early in the data curve.

And back to Stanadyne's literature, last I checked their public facing web page, the DS was rated for up to 30 hp per cylinder, so the math puts it at 240 for a V8. So getting anything above that is apparently gravy and past what was intended.

Definitely not arguing, just putting conversation out there . . .
 
The 6033 pump has the same basic design as any other DS pump, on paper. They changed a few things from what I can tell - to standardize manufacturing process, as referenced by a service bulletin I located for the ds4831-5827 (used in 2004 model year spartan chassis applications apparently). The pump is controlled as any other DS pump is, however they ditched the calibration resistor in favor of software calibration after the pump has been bench tested. The cam ring is the big difference, and appears to be how they alter the fueling capabilities on the various DS pump models, which is why its still a 4831. Referencing the material the stanadyne dealer was generous enough to provide, the procedure for bench testing the 6033 is the same as the older pumps, however throughout the rpm range the fueling set points are between 15 and 30mm higher. Its worth noting that the test setup calls for the same electronic controller used on the older pumps.

As for those super sleuthing on the outdated and neglected stanadyne website, and noticed none of this information is there, remember they have one customer for the DS these days, any application being developed currently or even in the last decade would be using the DE, there are no marketing materials for DS pumps. If you are feeling adventurous though you can alter the URL on their site once you realize where its serving PDF's from and find a bit of a treasure trove of old stanadyne information.

At the end of the day its just interesting, the cost of entry is pretty high for an experiment.
 
TAG said:
It's rated at 250 - 500 in the Humvee. It's not a 5521. Like I said in the first post, it shows a test point of 121mm in the test manual. You yourself have said many times the 5&21 can't go over 85 mm.
Click to expand...
No, I have said in real world testing they can't go over 95mm3. Theoretically they are capable of 120mm3 by doing the math of the stroke times bore of the pump. Many have tried, and best I have seen with actual test results to back it up was 96mm3 of fuel at 2000 rpm's, but that was a custom 5521 5068 hybrid pump with some other mods.

As to hitting 250hp out of a v-8, that is easily obtainable at the flywheel on 90mm3 of fuel. The LB7 DURAMAX made 300hp and 550 torque on 89mm3 of fuel, so I see no reason an IDI even with it's reduced efficiency in the higher power range can't make 250/500 on 90mm3 of fuel. 120mm3 of fuel would put you around 400hp in a direct injected engine. The LBZ was 360hp and 650 torque at roughly 112mm3 of fuel.
 
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theog said:
The 6033 pump has the same basic design as any other DS pump, on paper. They changed a few things from what I can tell - to standardize manufacturing process, as referenced by a service bulletin I located for the ds4831-5827 (used in 2004 model year spartan chassis applications apparently). The pump is controlled as any other DS pump is, however they ditched the calibration resistor in favor of software calibration after the pump has been bench tested. The cam ring is the big difference, and appears to be how they alter the fueling capabilities on the various DS pump models, which is why its still a 4831. Referencing the material the stanadyne dealer was generous enough to provide, the procedure for bench testing the 6033 is the same as the older pumps, however throughout the rpm range the fueling set points are between 15 and 30mm higher. Its worth noting that the test setup calls for the same electronic controller used on the older pumps.

As for those super sleuthing on the outdated and neglected stanadyne website, and noticed none of this information is there, remember they have one customer for the DS these days, any application being developed currently or even in the last decade would be using the DE, there are no marketing materials for DS pumps. If you are feeling adventurous though you can alter the URL on their site once you realize where its serving PDF's from and find a bit of a treasure trove of old stanadyne information.

At the end of the day its just interesting, the cost of entry is pretty high for an experiment.
Click to expand...
This is why I said the revisions had to be in how the pump handles the fuel and uses it. Would be interesting to see the results on actual bench instead of theory. It goes back to all those on DP swearing they're fueling 120+ as they found the hidden code to command it. In the end you are still limited by what the pump can push through an orifice after pumping losses and bleed by of the return. The only way to increase the output is to improve the pumps efficiency as to reduce pumping losses internally and get more of the fuel out to the actual injector.
 
So, I am the one who has this 6033 and am wondering what ecm can run it? If it has a higher output I am motivated to try find a solution on my p400/99’ hummer h1. Tnx
 
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