Nick 6.5
Active Member
ok ill deffinatly check it out. what about the "performance cams"?
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New to the 6.5 TD HELP
- Thread starter Nick 6.5
- Start date
btfarm
America First!
PM paveltolz (Paul). He has one. He usually checks in a couple of times/week when he's busy.
More often when he's goofing off...
great white
Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstood my meaning.
The GEP engines were part of the repower program. I'm not saying the one you found is a takeout, just that it is/was part of the repower program.
I would suggest you look at it very carefully though. I know a few guys who have gotten a hold of "never installed" engines from govt sources. Once delivered it became obvious why they were never installed. They were used as training aids and spent thier lives being torn down and reassembled by "not yet techs"
Im not saying the one you found is one of thise either. What i am saying is look at it very closely before dropping your hard earned money on it. Covers and pan i would suggest as a minimum.
Regardless, if it doesn't have the NAVISTAR endless road symbol cast into the valley it's not a GEP engine.
If it's not a GEP engine it's a GM casting.
A GM casting is a crap shoot. You may get 50,000 miles out of it or you may get 300,000.
I would toss a GM casting in if i was short on cash and needed an engine quickly.
I would pass on it if i was looking to build a "performance" IDI.
Just MHO....
Nick 6.5
Active Member
ok i understand now. ya the paperwork from the government says "new stock" so hopfully it wasnt a learning tool. and can u or any1 else post a pic of the navistar emblem and where exactly it should be on the block? i would really appreciate it.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
You would think if they go to all the trouble to make a block overseas they would just fake the logo too right?
I know it happens alot in oil field valves, they copy it exactly. And in cases where serial #s are needed they get around that by using old #s Who's going to check if the old one is still in service?? (These are big muti ton valves)
I know it happens alot in oil field valves, they copy it exactly. And in cases where serial #s are needed they get around that by using old #s Who's going to check if the old one is still in service?? (These are big muti ton valves)
Nick 6.5
Active Member
ohh ok got it thanks for the link! now i know what it looks like
Missy Good Wench
Wild Blonde from Cloud Mt
Interesting stuff being tossed around here.
The EGT, even though running into the 1500F range may not kill the engine outright, is /will take it's toll on things.
The heads on these engines absorb a huge amount of heat as compared to a DI engine like the DMAX
Head cracking is common in these engines, and shoving the EGT into the ozones will hasten this action.
The pistons may not melt the first time up the hill, and maybe not for quite a while, but the thermo dynamic stressing on the engine is there never the less.
The 1000F 1100F upper limits is just a very good place to try and stay close to.
When the boost is managed within reasonable limits the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) will be reasonable as well.
With boost above about 12 psi the IAT starts heading up, and at around 15 psi will approach 200F
This sort of IAT combines to increase the EGT simply by giving the entire process a head start.
Having IAT at or near ambient drastically reduces the EGT .
The factory turbo set up with the restricted nature of the flow also helps retain unwanted heat.
Dyno tests that were/have been and are ongoing by such companies as Penninsular Diesel have confermed beyond reasonable doubt, what happens to the 6.2/6.5 while running under extreme conditions.
A boat is a steady heavy load while under operation, there is no coast.
Their tests proved beyond any shadow that high EGT will kill these engines.
The incidence of piston siezure, cracking, melting of the crown etc, as well as cylinder head degradation IE, cracking of the precups, the area between the valves and such were far excellerated under the high temps.
The solution was to drop the compression ratio to 18:1 down from the 21:1 that GM started with.
This substancial drop in the CR really improved the EGT issue and the overal durability of the engine.
This mod drops the peak burn temps, plus it allows the addition of substantially more boost.
Buuuutttttttttttttttttt, when boost goes up, therein comes the need for a charge cooler.
Cooling the charge air is an absolute must when the boost gets into the 15 psi PLUS range.
Additions of water mist systems can also help, but not necessarily an absolute.
Getting the restrictions out of the drive side of the exhaust sytem (TURBO) is a must on these engines if you want to make LOTSA POWER.
Injectors
I was mentioned earlier about the SQUIRTS. Fresh injectors that pop at the desired pressure are ensential to the life of these engines when being used hard.
An injector that is "PEEING" a stream, rather than spraying a fine mist causes a lot of extra heat due to the longer time required to burn, and the fact that the flame front is in some cases getting shoved out the exhaust port, and this is an extreme case.
The huge thermal stresses induced by poor injectors is a real deal, especially if the engine is run hard.
I have seen "house cars" (Burbs) that when torn down had severe cracking in all 8 pistons, and had not towed a day in their lives.
These symptoms are not all that rare, and are caused by high temps.
These issues were due to a combination of things, worn out injectors, a failed waste gate vacuum system and likely other issues too.
These engines had coated piston tops too, but still, the heat did take a toll.
Having no issues on an occasional hard pull is not sufficient to make the statement that the excess heat is not hurting things, but it is an accumulative thing that just eats away at the structural integrity of the engine.
The 1000F figure (measured at the port, not in the down pipe, post turbo) is a number that these engines can handle all day long, day in and day out without letting up.
The short few miles of 1500F will normally not cause a catastrophic failure on the first rodeo, but these engines will not tollerate it long.
Long is a broad term, maybe 20k miles of consistently going up into the "DEATH ZONE" maybe more, maybe less.
Anything above 1200F is considered the "DEATH ZONE" for these engines, and it is taking a toll.
The 18:1 engines with a charge cooler and a good exhaust system can make a cozy 300 RRHP and do so all day long and live to brag about it.
A hard pushed stocker with boost into the ozones and high EGT NUMBERS will fail, not if, WHEN.
AMG blocks
Real AMG block have the Diamond cast in the valley, but also a new date code sequence, different from GM ENGINES
The AMG date code is XX-XX-Letter (H,J,K,L and so on)
(Example) 06-10-J)
H is the first year that AMG was in full control IIRC its 2000
I was not used as it looks like a 1
J is the next letter and so on
The letter indicates the year.
A GM installed engine in 2003 might well be an AMG built engine, BUTTTTTTTTTTT it might be an old stock GM engine too.
The date code layout will certainly show the story.
The copy cats I have seen have all had the GM codes, or none at all.
The OPTIMIZER 6500 engines made after 2000-2001 will all have the later style date code.
There is no guarantee that the copy cats will not use the AMG date code system, but to date I have never seen one.
I have an AMG block that was part of a batch that got loose due to a machining error, and AMG decided to scrap them, but they got side tracked before they made it back to the foundry.
There were several, not sure the numbers ?????????
Now, as before, we all have opionions and ideas, I base my posts on what I have seen and suspect to be good true data.
I also place much faith in dyno data from reputable companies.
Anecdotal materials can be misleading.
This is not meant to slight anyone, not at all, but rather provide data that can be reproduced again and again.
Hope this sheds some light on the issues.
Missy
The EGT, even though running into the 1500F range may not kill the engine outright, is /will take it's toll on things.
The heads on these engines absorb a huge amount of heat as compared to a DI engine like the DMAX
Head cracking is common in these engines, and shoving the EGT into the ozones will hasten this action.
The pistons may not melt the first time up the hill, and maybe not for quite a while, but the thermo dynamic stressing on the engine is there never the less.
The 1000F 1100F upper limits is just a very good place to try and stay close to.
When the boost is managed within reasonable limits the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) will be reasonable as well.
With boost above about 12 psi the IAT starts heading up, and at around 15 psi will approach 200F
This sort of IAT combines to increase the EGT simply by giving the entire process a head start.
Having IAT at or near ambient drastically reduces the EGT .
The factory turbo set up with the restricted nature of the flow also helps retain unwanted heat.
Dyno tests that were/have been and are ongoing by such companies as Penninsular Diesel have confermed beyond reasonable doubt, what happens to the 6.2/6.5 while running under extreme conditions.
A boat is a steady heavy load while under operation, there is no coast.
Their tests proved beyond any shadow that high EGT will kill these engines.
The incidence of piston siezure, cracking, melting of the crown etc, as well as cylinder head degradation IE, cracking of the precups, the area between the valves and such were far excellerated under the high temps.
The solution was to drop the compression ratio to 18:1 down from the 21:1 that GM started with.
This substancial drop in the CR really improved the EGT issue and the overal durability of the engine.
This mod drops the peak burn temps, plus it allows the addition of substantially more boost.
Buuuutttttttttttttttttt, when boost goes up, therein comes the need for a charge cooler.
Cooling the charge air is an absolute must when the boost gets into the 15 psi PLUS range.
Additions of water mist systems can also help, but not necessarily an absolute.
Getting the restrictions out of the drive side of the exhaust sytem (TURBO) is a must on these engines if you want to make LOTSA POWER.
Injectors
I was mentioned earlier about the SQUIRTS. Fresh injectors that pop at the desired pressure are ensential to the life of these engines when being used hard.
An injector that is "PEEING" a stream, rather than spraying a fine mist causes a lot of extra heat due to the longer time required to burn, and the fact that the flame front is in some cases getting shoved out the exhaust port, and this is an extreme case.
The huge thermal stresses induced by poor injectors is a real deal, especially if the engine is run hard.
I have seen "house cars" (Burbs) that when torn down had severe cracking in all 8 pistons, and had not towed a day in their lives.
These symptoms are not all that rare, and are caused by high temps.
These issues were due to a combination of things, worn out injectors, a failed waste gate vacuum system and likely other issues too.
These engines had coated piston tops too, but still, the heat did take a toll.
Having no issues on an occasional hard pull is not sufficient to make the statement that the excess heat is not hurting things, but it is an accumulative thing that just eats away at the structural integrity of the engine.
The 1000F figure (measured at the port, not in the down pipe, post turbo) is a number that these engines can handle all day long, day in and day out without letting up.
The short few miles of 1500F will normally not cause a catastrophic failure on the first rodeo, but these engines will not tollerate it long.
Long is a broad term, maybe 20k miles of consistently going up into the "DEATH ZONE" maybe more, maybe less.
Anything above 1200F is considered the "DEATH ZONE" for these engines, and it is taking a toll.
The 18:1 engines with a charge cooler and a good exhaust system can make a cozy 300 RRHP and do so all day long and live to brag about it.
A hard pushed stocker with boost into the ozones and high EGT NUMBERS will fail, not if, WHEN.
AMG blocks
Real AMG block have the Diamond cast in the valley, but also a new date code sequence, different from GM ENGINES
The AMG date code is XX-XX-Letter (H,J,K,L and so on)
(Example) 06-10-J)
H is the first year that AMG was in full control IIRC its 2000
I was not used as it looks like a 1
J is the next letter and so on
The letter indicates the year.
A GM installed engine in 2003 might well be an AMG built engine, BUTTTTTTTTTTT it might be an old stock GM engine too.
The date code layout will certainly show the story.
The copy cats I have seen have all had the GM codes, or none at all.
The OPTIMIZER 6500 engines made after 2000-2001 will all have the later style date code.
There is no guarantee that the copy cats will not use the AMG date code system, but to date I have never seen one.
I have an AMG block that was part of a batch that got loose due to a machining error, and AMG decided to scrap them, but they got side tracked before they made it back to the foundry.
There were several, not sure the numbers ?????????
Now, as before, we all have opionions and ideas, I base my posts on what I have seen and suspect to be good true data.
I also place much faith in dyno data from reputable companies.
Anecdotal materials can be misleading.
This is not meant to slight anyone, not at all, but rather provide data that can be reproduced again and again.
Hope this sheds some light on the issues.
Missy
Nick 6.5
Active Member
I see alot of guys on here are using 2300PSI injectors, im guessing the a perfect pressure for these truck to run?
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
I'm pretty sure Peninsular used db2 pumps in all their tests, it would be interesting to see how those same tests with a ds4 pump and a tune would stack up. I'm sure timing plays a huge role in all of this.
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
PM paveltolz (Paul). He has one. He usually checks in a couple of times/week when he's busy.
More often when he's goofing off...
Hugs and kisses to you too.
He sent me a PM and I've responded but will hold off putting it out here because I'd hate do derail his thread....:hello:
Nick 6.5
Active Member
By all means go ahead and repost if u like. It may help some1 else other than me that may be reading the thread as well
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
OK, here goes
Heath has a full listing of prices on his web page and the cams are currently running $595. But after returning the good core w/in 15 days, there's $200 credit I'd use it against the tune cost). The tune is extra and is just about essential when changing the dynamics of these motor with a new cam (or turbo for that matter). As retold to me, one of his customers phased the two purchases and reported a substantial improvement in performance with just the cam. But, that's just one related experience and I'm not betting my truck on it. That said, I've been in both Bill's and his son's trucks and they friggen haul the mail. I don't know what your 0-60 time is but Bill's was 8.5 seconds and Joe's is faster still. My old OEM motor was 13 seconds with an economy tune (Eco-neuter).
UNFORTUNATELY it seems I got an issue related to my truck specifically. In getting up off the line, the truck has always seemed to struggle, especially with the old motor and, frustratingly so with the new motor. Feels like it can't get out of its own way (APP, tires, driveline or all the above...) so my results, while favorable, aren't up to where Bill and I think they should be. When you consider I have the essentially the same set up Bill and Joe do and I'm lighter by 1000lbs, I should be smoking their bags and I'm not even close. I'll get there though....
Is it worth it to upgrade the cam and tune? If you're in there already and the challenge is something you enjoy, I'd do it again. If this new motor of mine blows up, I'll put an improved cam in the replacement motor and try again.
As to your fuel mileage question; I used to average mid 15 to low 17 mpg with the old and saw 19mpg once with the ATT (old motor). Currently I'm at 18-19 average with high 21 mpg highway now and again with a GM-5 turbo (staying around 65mph). My first 21mpg tank (Super 84 turbo) I had even made a couple of 120mph speed runs (and the motor was smooth and still pulling hard but I'd run out of safety net). This week I crossed the 6000 mile mark and have noticed it gets stronger as the miles go by so it is still breaking in and getting stronger with the passing miles.
Heath has a full listing of prices on his web page and the cams are currently running $595. But after returning the good core w/in 15 days, there's $200 credit I'd use it against the tune cost). The tune is extra and is just about essential when changing the dynamics of these motor with a new cam (or turbo for that matter). As retold to me, one of his customers phased the two purchases and reported a substantial improvement in performance with just the cam. But, that's just one related experience and I'm not betting my truck on it. That said, I've been in both Bill's and his son's trucks and they friggen haul the mail. I don't know what your 0-60 time is but Bill's was 8.5 seconds and Joe's is faster still. My old OEM motor was 13 seconds with an economy tune (Eco-neuter).
UNFORTUNATELY it seems I got an issue related to my truck specifically. In getting up off the line, the truck has always seemed to struggle, especially with the old motor and, frustratingly so with the new motor. Feels like it can't get out of its own way (APP, tires, driveline or all the above...) so my results, while favorable, aren't up to where Bill and I think they should be. When you consider I have the essentially the same set up Bill and Joe do and I'm lighter by 1000lbs, I should be smoking their bags and I'm not even close. I'll get there though....
Is it worth it to upgrade the cam and tune? If you're in there already and the challenge is something you enjoy, I'd do it again. If this new motor of mine blows up, I'll put an improved cam in the replacement motor and try again.
As to your fuel mileage question; I used to average mid 15 to low 17 mpg with the old and saw 19mpg once with the ATT (old motor). Currently I'm at 18-19 average with high 21 mpg highway now and again with a GM-5 turbo (staying around 65mph). My first 21mpg tank (Super 84 turbo) I had even made a couple of 120mph speed runs (and the motor was smooth and still pulling hard but I'd run out of safety net). This week I crossed the 6000 mile mark and have noticed it gets stronger as the miles go by so it is still breaking in and getting stronger with the passing miles.
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
506 block w/ <|> casting lower center
Will L.
Well-Known Member
1 more vote saying navistar block only. You'll have enough things to sweat when working the engine hard so take that worry out of the equation.
The heat/egt issues, you asked 1000 safe for egts? Well...
In talking to Bill Heath about buying a water mist, the airflow dynamics he worked on for hummers, and so on his quote about egts when I asked where he would suggest a safe to danger zone from his racing experience was "At 1100 you could drive to the moon. Pay attention at 1200 and if you run 1300 sustained you need to back out after just a couple minutes." Keep in mind this was on a hummer where the ho water pump with dmax fan is not an option. Neither is an ATT or an hx40 to help reduce the numbers. Also no tune available for this puppy. He said for the regular trucks they get a little more room due to ect cooling improvements.
my experience: hummers/hmmwvs have far less cooling area and at a ridiculous angle coupled with lower gearing, worse aerodynamics, more weight, high rolling resistant tires, etc,etc. Hummers kill these engines when they try to take it easy. Experience of many blown engines from previous testing in fuel company I worked for, five blown engines of my own,( one unexpected the others being hammered hard), and dozens of trucks with 6.5, at over 200,000 miles anually and hundreds in the racks in test labs. Also a being the go to guy for a fleet that owns 45 hummers each clocking over 100,000 miles each yearly. WW has it right on this one-egts are a precurser on increasing ects, and shortened oil life. Not the end all keep vs kill your engine. Pistons scuff the walls due to thermal expansion negated by cooling. Pistons tops tear up in the 1800 range. In testing while working for an oil company on failure temp we figured this out: Blow up a turbo'd engine killed by egt's and tear it down. Blow up a n/a engine that had low egt/iat numbers that sustained ects of 240 and tell me the difference. When we did it in the lab the metalurgists couldn't id the cause. Neither could the evaluation engineers. Btw stock timing on all some db2 some ds4.
Your engine oil and ects has far greater impact on engine life than egts.
8 psi oil pressure at idle is within spec, but 15 is better. Same thing lower temps are better but by no means is cause for panic or a magic safe number, it is a cautionary guide based on overall condition of the engine at that time. WW's caution at 210 is lower than I run, if I pulled over everytime I hit 210 I would stop 2 times going to work and 3 coming home, at 205 I back out of the throttle half way and get nervous at 220. But they are only there a few minutes not half an hour. Maybe different results of stop and go vs highway? I have had engines at 235 for 20 - 25 minutes with no problems only to loose the engine later to experimental oil testing. I dont recommend it, lower temps are safer.
(Side note -working on some interesting fuel for the near future. For those inclined to like synthetic oil over conventional stay tuned...)
When you see everyone agree on things like the block,4" exhaust, better turbo, dmax cooling mod, etc that tells you those are the solid investments.
The heat/egt issues, you asked 1000 safe for egts? Well...
In talking to Bill Heath about buying a water mist, the airflow dynamics he worked on for hummers, and so on his quote about egts when I asked where he would suggest a safe to danger zone from his racing experience was "At 1100 you could drive to the moon. Pay attention at 1200 and if you run 1300 sustained you need to back out after just a couple minutes." Keep in mind this was on a hummer where the ho water pump with dmax fan is not an option. Neither is an ATT or an hx40 to help reduce the numbers. Also no tune available for this puppy. He said for the regular trucks they get a little more room due to ect cooling improvements.
my experience: hummers/hmmwvs have far less cooling area and at a ridiculous angle coupled with lower gearing, worse aerodynamics, more weight, high rolling resistant tires, etc,etc. Hummers kill these engines when they try to take it easy. Experience of many blown engines from previous testing in fuel company I worked for, five blown engines of my own,( one unexpected the others being hammered hard), and dozens of trucks with 6.5, at over 200,000 miles anually and hundreds in the racks in test labs. Also a being the go to guy for a fleet that owns 45 hummers each clocking over 100,000 miles each yearly. WW has it right on this one-egts are a precurser on increasing ects, and shortened oil life. Not the end all keep vs kill your engine. Pistons scuff the walls due to thermal expansion negated by cooling. Pistons tops tear up in the 1800 range. In testing while working for an oil company on failure temp we figured this out: Blow up a turbo'd engine killed by egt's and tear it down. Blow up a n/a engine that had low egt/iat numbers that sustained ects of 240 and tell me the difference. When we did it in the lab the metalurgists couldn't id the cause. Neither could the evaluation engineers. Btw stock timing on all some db2 some ds4.
Your engine oil and ects has far greater impact on engine life than egts.
8 psi oil pressure at idle is within spec, but 15 is better. Same thing lower temps are better but by no means is cause for panic or a magic safe number, it is a cautionary guide based on overall condition of the engine at that time. WW's caution at 210 is lower than I run, if I pulled over everytime I hit 210 I would stop 2 times going to work and 3 coming home, at 205 I back out of the throttle half way and get nervous at 220. But they are only there a few minutes not half an hour. Maybe different results of stop and go vs highway? I have had engines at 235 for 20 - 25 minutes with no problems only to loose the engine later to experimental oil testing. I dont recommend it, lower temps are safer.
(Side note -working on some interesting fuel for the near future. For those inclined to like synthetic oil over conventional stay tuned...)
When you see everyone agree on things like the block,4" exhaust, better turbo, dmax cooling mod, etc that tells you those are the solid investments.
btfarm
America First!
Paul and Will - :thumbsup: to you both for the candid input above.
jm2c
jm2c