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New Optimizer Long Block

@Will L. is there a thread here with pics somewhere or a video on removing the flashing from an engine? One of these days, I want to get a new optimizer for the 93 and have it outlast me. as for balancing the internals, we have a local engine shop here but last I heard they were so backed up with jobs, they started rushing things out the door which caused them to get a bad rap. not sure if I would want to trust them with something so critical.
 
Will L. said:
My new optimizer made it 70,000 miles untouched. Then spun a cam bearing from the flashing coming free. It ruined the bearing and the cam obviously. I stopped it in time before the spinning bearing ruined the block.

Now here’s the thing- where is your oil pressure gauge attached?
Center of the valley right? Half way down the camshaft right? The bearing that spun is after the sensor. On my engine the oil pressure gauge was at the rear of the engine- opposite of where side mounted turbo oil supply is at. So I had a couple bearings after my sensor that still restricted flow as they should before the spun bearing. So my oil pressure drop was only a 10 psi drop from where it was the day before, but still way high that is considered good oil pressure.

Only because I constantly note the gauges And noticed the difference when I heard a funny sound and a momentary blip in power did I take it seriously. Knowing that it is usually the very last (front) cam bearing that gets damaged, and since I was planning on adding my centermount turbo soon anyways which required me removing the engine the way I was doing it- I removed the cam and saw the problem. It would have kelt running and had oil pressure for maybe another 1,000 miles then ruined the entire engine- block crank, etc.

I knew when I put it in the smarter choice would be disassemble, inspect and reassemble even if I made no alterations. NO WARRANTY. But I justified it by saying “GEP builds these for war fairing equipment- millions and millions of new engines are made every year- this should be fine.”
No. DOGE should be inspecting AM General- specifically GEP because the failure rate of the 6.5 is absolutely horrendous. They are slapping these engines together by standards thought ok in the 1970’s except the absolute worst unbalanced lower rotating assembly any one at any machine shop has ever heard of. Why? THERE IS NO FACTORY SPECIFICATION AS TO BALANCE!! They just slap together and figure it’s ok. Meanwhile modern engines have a specification because they learned it makes a difference in not just longevity but efficiency. Better mpg and emissions.

If a person doesn’t want to upgrade rings, coated bearings, or doesn’t even care to get the balance closer by diy methods- (if broke and don’t know how, ask) then fine.
But buying an $8,500 engine that seem to have a chance of catastrophic failure in under 100,000 miles… spend another few hundred dollars and ensure it will live a lot longer life.
Disassemble. Throw away the gaskets and head bolts & main bolts. Sit down with a $20 die grinder and $20 bit (if you dont already have them) to remove all the flashing. Maybe 3 hours if you never did it before and have the worst cast one ever. Use $5 in plastigauge and check clearances if you dont have the better measuring tools. 4 hours.
A $10 scale from amazon will let you use same die grinder to get rods and pistons amazingly close to equal. Yes the crank being done is a big improvement but rods & pistons are half the battle and a guy can diy them close in a single day. The new gaskets and bolts are not expensive. Head bolts-$50, head gaskets-$50, main bolts I haven’t priced lately but you get the idea. This will cost time and money- but not like it requires 2 months and $1,500 additional.

Adding in more money for further improvements is case by case. Mine is over the top but I’m an old picky guy that has always wanted one done this way. If I could have afforded it, it would have been done long ago but other things take economic precedence.

Idk- maybe someone here is an insurance statistics person and can show the math how it’s only worth an additional $127.31 on top of an $8k engine to be worth the risk.
But my experience says do it.
I get hassles for “the sky is falling” but look where I am. New optimizer- spun cam bearing. Fix that and put together adding a factory designed turbo and buying “save” $25 buy getting glow plugs online instead of napa or dealership = destroyed piston.
I grew up and lived most of my life in Vegas. I understand odds. I see it as newr crazy to not do this - that why I tell everyone to do it.

If you had it as a factory option- $8k for the generic mass production engine or an additional 10% cost for a hand built one that will run smoother and improve lifespan & mpg - would you do it?
Click to expand...
This pretty much is how I see it Will L. (BTW I grew up in Vegas too). When I started this thread I was pretty sure that it should be torn down but I was trying talk myself out of it, but after reading a lot on here about engine failures I've decided it must be done.

So I'm going to do it but I know at my current pace on that truck (2 1/2 years as a storage unit for straw in the garage) it will take me a lot longer than 2 months to get it done. When I was trying to find a machine shop around here to take my block to it was going to take 6 weeks to get it in, one shop wouldn't even touch it. So now I have to find one to balance my new assembly. Twisted Steel Performance are you available? I'm also interested in the coatings you do.
 
Will L. said:
My new optimizer made it 70,000 miles untouched. Then spun a cam bearing from the flashing coming free. It ruined the bearing and the cam obviously. I stopped it in time before the spinning bearing ruined the block.

Now here’s the thing- where is your oil pressure gauge attached?
Center of the valley right? Half way down the camshaft right? The bearing that spun is after the sensor. On my engine the oil pressure gauge was at the rear of the engine- opposite of where side mounted turbo oil supply is at. So I had a couple bearings after my sensor that still restricted flow as they should before the spun bearing. So my oil pressure drop was only a 10 psi drop from where it was the day before, but still way high that is considered good oil pressure.

Only because I constantly note the gauges And noticed the difference when I heard a funny sound and a momentary blip in power did I take it seriously. Knowing that it is usually the very last (front) cam bearing that gets damaged, and since I was planning on adding my centermount turbo soon anyways which required me removing the engine the way I was doing it- I removed the cam and saw the problem. It would have kelt running and had oil pressure for maybe another 1,000 miles then ruined the entire engine- block crank, etc.

I knew when I put it in the smarter choice would be disassemble, inspect and reassemble even if I made no alterations. NO WARRANTY. But I justified it by saying “GEP builds these for war fairing equipment- millions and millions of new engines are made every year- this should be fine.”
No. DOGE should be inspecting AM General- specifically GEP because the failure rate of the 6.5 is absolutely horrendous. They are slapping these engines together by standards thought ok in the 1970’s except the absolute worst unbalanced lower rotating assembly any one at any machine shop has ever heard of. Why? THERE IS NO FACTORY SPECIFICATION AS TO BALANCE!! They just slap together and figure it’s ok. Meanwhile modern engines have a specification because they learned it makes a difference in not just longevity but efficiency. Better mpg and emissions.

If a person doesn’t want to upgrade rings, coated bearings, or doesn’t even care to get the balance closer by diy methods- (if broke and don’t know how, ask) then fine.
But buying an $8,500 engine that seem to have a chance of catastrophic failure in under 100,000 miles… spend another few hundred dollars and ensure it will live a lot longer life.
Disassemble. Throw away the gaskets and head bolts & main bolts. Sit down with a $20 die grinder and $20 bit (if you dont already have them) to remove all the flashing. Maybe 3 hours if you never did it before and have the worst cast one ever. Use $5 in plastigauge and check clearances if you dont have the better measuring tools. 4 hours.
A $10 scale from amazon will let you use same die grinder to get rods and pistons amazingly close to equal. Yes the crank being done is a big improvement but rods & pistons are half the battle and a guy can diy them close in a single day. The new gaskets and bolts are not expensive. Head bolts-$50, head gaskets-$50, main bolts I haven’t priced lately but you get the idea. This will cost time and money- but not like it requires 2 months and $1,500 additional.

Adding in more money for further improvements is case by case. Mine is over the top but I’m an old picky guy that has always wanted one done this way. If I could have afforded it, it would have been done long ago but other things take economic precedence.

Idk- maybe someone here is an insurance statistics person and can show the math how it’s only worth an additional $127.31 on top of an $8k engine to be worth the risk.
But my experience says do it.
I get hassles for “the sky is falling” but look where I am. New optimizer- spun cam bearing. Fix that and put together adding a factory designed turbo and buying “save” $25 buy getting glow plugs online instead of napa or dealership = destroyed piston.
I grew up and lived most of my life in Vegas. I understand odds. I see it as newr crazy to not do this - that why I tell everyone to do it.

If you had it as a factory option- $8k for the generic mass production engine or an additional 10% cost for a hand built one that will run smoother and improve lifespan & mpg - would you do it?
Click to expand...
If I had the time, yes. Never done it before, but could figure it out.
 
@dbrannon79 i can’t show pics of before/ after because I already removed the flashings from my engine. A fast YouTube search popped up this video. Not our engine. Ignore him talking about lifter locations & such. Pay attention to the flashing he points out at the front of his engine and how easily he breaks a piece off just by bumping it. He tries acting like it’s no big deal it is there at first then breaks a piece off and says he will be removing it. That piece he broke off was twice the size of what ruined my camshaft and cam bearing- almost ruined my entire engine.


Adding in video of a guy removing flashing from a sbc intake. Super easy to do.
Just do the entire engine in one day = easy. The intake not critical just for appearance and to not cut yourself working on it in his case. Inside the engine is critical.
 
@JohnShead I grew up east side of town near Nellis AFB. Wonder if we crossed paths…

if you use the @ just before typing the person’s name it will alert them someone is taking to them. So to get Chris’ attention for your post above do this:
@Twisted Steel Performance See post #22.

John,
If he is too busy for your schedule, there should be other shops around that can do it well. You are in a race engine building part of the country. These engines are so horribly out of balance you could diy and make it better even if you never did any of it before. But don’t bother trying to do some of it to save 10% in the machine shops labor costs- it doesn’t work that way. If taking it in leave everything alone.
 
So that is something easy I could do just by tearing everything down and having at it. as far as the balance job. all of the cranks are cast I would assume the same and a factory balance is done I'm assuming without the weight of the pistons and rods. you mention taking a cheap scale and weigh the piston/rod/ring assembly getting them as close to each other as possible before reassembly. does doing this without sending the crank and all out to be balanced help anything if a fella like myself wants to do it on the cheaper side or doesn't have a reputable engine shop nearby?
 
@Big T
Yeah- you were tight on time and frankly can afford the loss of the engine way easier than most here myself included. Everything we do it a guess on money & time investment vs reward gained from it. If you loose a new engine it sets you back time and certain economic goals. Some folks here like myself- if we loose a new engine that will be the last new engine we ever buy.
 
dbrannon79 said:
So that is something easy I could do just by tearing everything down and having at it. as far as the balance job. all of the cranks are cast I would assume the same and a factory balance is done I'm assuming without the weight of the pistons and rods. you mention taking a cheap scale and weigh the piston/rod/ring assembly getting them as close to each other as possible before reassembly. does doing this without sending the crank and all out to be balanced help anything if a fella like myself wants to do it on the cheaper side or doesn't have a reputable engine shop nearby?
Click to expand...
Ideally- send entire rotating assembly to a machine shop for balancing. $300ish seems common.

If that is not an option then a diy job makes it “not as bad” out of balance.
Only the pistons and rods get modified. Search YouTube and watch videos on how machine shops balance rods and how they balance pistons. Twisted Steel Performance showed pics on where you should remove weight on pistons for these engines- a bit different than was is perfectly fine on gasoline pistons.
 
$300ish isn't bad, I thought I had heard a balance job was upwards near $1000 to have done. I don't see myself being able to afford a new engine anytime soon, but if I got the chance to... I would want to get it done. Having $10k+ blow up on me, I would be walking for quite a while!

LOL the wife and I were talking the other day about it, my CC keeps telling me I'm pre-approved to put 50k toward a new vehicle, but I don't want a new one nor can afford another monthly payment. Our neighbor was looking at new trucks until he was told a new Chevy Colorado he was looking at was going to cost him dam near a grand per month for 7 years!!! my first thought was "not no but hell no". The thought came to me wondering if they'd finance dumping half that into an existing vehicle. I doubt it works like that, but it'd be nice if they did!
 
Will L. said:
@JohnShead I grew up east side of town near Nellis AFB. Wonder if we crossed paths…

if you use the @ just before typing the person’s name it will alert them someone is taking to them. So to get Chris’ attention for your post above do this:
@Twisted Steel Performance See post #22.

John,
If he is too busy for your schedule, there should be other shops around that can do it well. You are in a race engine building part of the country. These engines are so horribly out of balance you could diy and make it better even if you never did any of it before. But don’t bother trying to do some of it to save 10% in the machine shops labor costs- it doesn’t work that way. If taking it in leave everything alone.
Click to expand...
@Will L. thanks for the education on posting. I grew up in Henderson in the 60s & 70s, owned a house in North Town behind Wimpy's (awesome burgers) early 80s then got ATC job and had to move to Palmdale, CA in 85. I still have brothers there.
 
@dbrannon79
Something like 50% of people get to retirement age and have ZERO retirement money. Another 20% don’t have enough saved up to make it 5 years.
The majority of people think it fine then are economically toast most their lives.
Nope. Not me. As soon as I can pay off a brand new car in 2 years, I will buy one. Until then- nope. Hasn’t happened yet.

In my 30’s I bought the Hummer for $28k and an equivalent 4 door diesel pickup used with same miles on it (30,000) sold then for $20,000. Thats the only way I justified getting it. I knew the resale value would always allow me “an out”. Imo it is insane to buy any brand new rig.

You can get a loan on used vehicles that you already have paid off. Obviously credit rating counts, and value of rig.
We just bought a 2013 tahoe at auction. Got a fast loan for it at our bank, getting set to get a different loan at half the interest rate next month. Gonna have the loan amount high enough to repaint it (ex cop car with black fenders) because I am a horrible painter.

Pretty much car value has to be over $10,000 usually. And depending who is loaning the money they have age restrictions on rig.
But if value is high they will still do it. My hummer is a 95 and they would still loan against it if I wanted. But you gotta do the math if the interest makes the loan worth it.
Talk to your bank to start- then usually you can beat their interest rate by 25%.

Our current one was high because we didn’t plan ahead and get a proper one. We loose maybe $300 in interest by time we get the loan replaced but deal on purchase made it worth it.
 
I’ve never financed a car. Always paid cash. Unless the gov subsidizes by allowing interest deduction ala real estate, I don’t finance.

Only new car purchases of late have been the 2014 and 2023 4Runners for my wife. Whe I was looking into the 4Runners, a 5 year old one sells for 75% of MSRP and they have 80K to 100K miles on them. For 25% depreciation in value, those are the miles you want as there is only fluid changes to do.

When I lost the engine in my ‘99 last summer, my wife suggested I get myself a new truck. I passed and went for the repower with the Optimizer. I just don’t put a lot of miles on the trucks to justify $70 depreciating in my garage. Also did not want to deal with DPF, EGR, and CP4 injection pump failures. I know it was the right choice.
 
Well, I did finance my Suburban back in 96 for $32,000 as a used truck from the dealer, they were using it as a courtesy vehicle for a year when I bought it, it had 17,000 miles on it but still had never been registered with the DMV. The loan rep at my credit union was worried about that price for a "used" truck. It's 30 years old now and getting its third motor, I hope I don't have to do this again in 10 years.

I got started with the disassembly yesterday, I pulled the heads off. I'm going to stud the heads but I was wondering if these TTY bolts are still good since they have never been through any heat cycles, I read a thread somewhere that implied they could be retorqued as long as that's was the case. I've never worked on a motor that didn't get me all greasy until now, most the parts removed have been completely dry just some gobs of grease on the valve & push rod tops, none on the bottom end of the rods. I took out the lifters and they did have oil on them but it was very light, I had to rotate them in the light to get it just right to see the oil, couldn't feel it on my fingers though. There was oil in the pan but very little oil on the timing chain, they must have put the oil in some other way. I also couldn't feel oil on the cylinder walls and there is light rust forming on them, I'm sure they didn't prime it. I took the pan off but I can't take the bottom end apart yet because I ran out of propane for my heater and with the polar vortex the garage is way too cold to work in.
 
Imo if you are not pushing up the boost and don’t have a turbo listed in your signature- - so this says you have ZERO need of the head studs. There is a risk of coolant getting past them so I don’t recommend them unless you can justify it.

No you CAN NOT re use the tty head bolts. It doesn’t matter that they were not run - once torqued they are trash can bound. New bolts are less expensive than head studs anyways. Remember the box of them if bought not in a complete engine kit is usually one head not both.
 
I so wanted to go with gapless rings and the timing keeper gear set that I have setting on the bench.
I just was not going to risk breaking seals and then taking a chance of creating a leak.
I was tired of leaks, why I pulled the engine from My truck in the first place.
 
I'll be getting a new turbo, I haven't put plans in signature just the stuff I have now. How about the exhaust? Mine is 3.5" from way back when, should I go to a 4". I already had my Phazer gears on the new motor when I decided to disassemble it, so back to the parts store to borrow a harmonic balancer puller again.
 
JohnShead said:
I'll be getting a new turbo, I haven't put plans in signature just the stuff I have now. How about the exhaust? Mine is 3.5" from way back when, should I go to a 4". I already had my Phazer gears on the new motor when I decided to disassemble it, so back to the parts store to borrow a harmonic balancer puller again.
Click to expand...
I made a bolt to pull the balancer back on to the cranking shaft. Wonder what I did with that ? It required changing lengths of bolts several times but it worked mighty fine like.
Edit post:
Now I cant find it to get a picture of it, and, I cant rememer whut it looked like. Sad to begin to get forgetful. Begin ? ? ? ? 😬🫣😹😹😹
 
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